Scientific Proof of the Supernatural

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

This may surprise you and you may not agree with my reasoning but I personally see evidence of an intelligent designer in the very fact that humans have inherent unique flaws in our makeup. Individual sentient beings that are not the result of a cookie cutter process of evolution or creation. I believe the flaw was intentional and for a purpose we do not yet know.

It’s interesting that the greatest artists/painters in the world include a flaw in their best work on purpose. Could this be part of our god nature?

I like to think of it as a measure of randomness within creation that makes life interesting. I used to know a man that built grandfather clocks but he used to create flaws in his work as well as throw in a few redundant parts, when I asked him why he did this he explained that it was his signature within his work and no automated manufacture could duplicate his precision work. It made each clock an individual and unique time piece, thus greater value and craftsman ship.

Man is made in the image of God, I believe that image is not physical but in our ability to create or destroy within our art and our music and even in our sciences. Man is rabidly increasing in knowledge to the point he may be able to create life itself in a laboratory soon. Perhaps other creations of God both good and evil have achieved this ability already. It is our uniqueness that makes us identifiable to God as part of His great work.

Irish

That's pretty deep, I must say. It's only flaw, in my eyes anyway, is the statemment "It’s interesting that the greatest artists/painters in the world include a flaw in their best work on purpose." It is true in some cases, but not all. Doesn't make it not true though.

[AlexG]

does that strike you a little odd?

I was not going to get into the non-existence of a historical Jesus, but the fact there is no contemporary documentation has been presented as evidence of such.

Edited December 3, 2008 by AlexG

[+Sherapy]

This may surprise you and you may not agree with my reasoning but I personally see evidence of an intelligent designer in the very fact that humans have inherent unique flaws in our makeup. Individual sentient beings that are not the result of a cookie cutter process of evolution or creation. I believe the flaw was intentional and for a purpose we do not yet know.

It's interesting that the greatest artists/painters in the world include a flaw in their best work on purpose. Could this be part of our god nature?

I like to think of it as a measure of randomness within creation that makes life interesting. I used to know a man that built grandfather clocks but he used to create flaws in his work as well as throw in a few redundant parts, when I asked him why he did this he explained that it was his signature within his work and no automated manufacture could duplicate his precision work. It made each clock an individual and unique time piece, thus greater value and craftsman ship.

Man is made in the image of God, I believe that image is not physical but in our ability to create or destroy within our art and our music and even in our sciences. Man is rabidly increasing in knowledge to the point he may be able to create life itself in a laboratory soon. Perhaps other creations of God both good and evil have achieved this ability already. It is our uniqueness that makes us identifiable to God as part of His great work.

Irish

irish I rather enjoy that we have different posits ..... very interesting indeed ..and i expect you wil not agree with me either lol ...

one of the stumbling blocks I have with the "consciousness" theme using your quote as my springboard "Since consciousness itself contains no physical attributes it should exists within the realm of the esoteric rather than the physical plane, therefore those that demand physical evidence of God, Souls, Ghosts or an after life are in fact limiting there sense of reasoning and understanding to a limited paradoxical plane."

for me it is an anthropomorphic approach to understanding ( or the disneyland version of existance. I do not nessecarily dispute that it may make things easier to glue together but is flawed in my view). Basically for me It is premature to hold something to be in an "esoteric realm" when we have yet to clearly define and understand what 'consciousness' even is.

How is one open when they are leaping to a predetermined posit versus saying i just don't know at this time and that is okay with me..., ..

conciousness is not needed to create an illusion, but it is necessary to percieve the illusion.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

irish I rather enjoy that we have different posits ..... very interesting indeed ..and i expect you wil not agree with me either lol ...

one of the stumbling blocks I have with the "consciousness" theme using your quote as my springboard "Since consciousness itself contains no physical attributes it should exists within the realm of the esoteric rather than the physical plane, therefore those that demand physical evidence of God, Souls, Ghosts or an after life are in fact limiting there sense of reasoning and understanding to a limited paradoxical plane."

for me it is an anthropomorphic approach to understanding ( or the disneyland version of existance. I do not nessecarily dispute that it may make things easier to glue together but is flawed in my view). Basically for me It is premature to hold something to be in an "esoteric realm" when we have yet to clearly define and understand what 'consciousness' eve is.

How is one open when they are leaping to a predetermined posit versus saying i just don't know at this time ..

conciousness is not needed to create an illusion, but it is necessary to percieve the illusion.

Wise words. I feel this way as well. I got nothin' more to add. lol

[+Sherapy]

Wise words. I feel this way as well. I got nothin' more to add. lol

Thanks D c for your very kind words ...

I have a good friend that is sort of similar to Irish and we debate along these lines alot he can't fathom how I can just be okay with not knowing things and I am perplexed as to why he insists on assuming that there must be some meaning to everything and he has to define/find it......lol.....

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Thanks D c for your very kind words ...

I have a good friend that is sort of similar to Irish and we debate along these lines alot he can't fathom how I can just be okay with not knowing things and I am perplexed as to why he insists on assuming that there must be some meaning to everything and he has to define/find it......lol.....

I think that philosophy is central to Buddhism. Not knowing certain things is one thing. Realizing that they don't matter is enlightening! that is what initially appealed to me about Buddhism.

[+Sherapy]

I think that philosophy is central to Buddhism. Not knowing certain things is one thing. Realizing that they don't matter is enlightening! that is what initially appealed to me about Buddhism.

excellent point , it is enlightening and liberating and freeing... it allows so much room for life to just be ... ...??? I l ve it .....

Edited December 4, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri

[Lt_Ripley]

Right, but there was a reason for marking the time, due to the Sabbath. the sixth hour is Sabbath and the third hour is not. perhaps there was some monetary gain by flubbing the time in marks account. a bribe or a threat. He wasn't Jewish and perhaps didn't understand the importance, especially since his lessons would have been focused away from Jewish tradition, and he didn't have the upbringing.

Thanks for the rest. although, I remember thinking, Is it strange that there are recorded star movements for all other events. and also Galilee is a port city if im not mistaken, obviously sailors watch the stars for navigation in those times.

Shabbat begins Friday evening ( about 6) and ends Saturday evening.

concerning the Sabbath and Passover -

In the 6th century, Dionysius Exiguus proposed to make the birth of Jesus the basis of the calendar but he miscalculated the death of Herod. Years reckoned in this way are labelled "A.D.", which stands for Anno Domini, meaning "in the year of the Lord" in Latin. Since many non-Christians have come to use this calendar, an alternative notation "C.E." is sometimes used. It is presently uncertain what the original meaning of this abbreviation was, although today it is taken to mean either the Common Era or the Christian Era: many references cite both.

Based on inferences from Gospel accounts, Jesus was executed by crucifixion on a Friday, and on the 14th day of the Jewish month of Nisan under the administration of Pontius Pilate. Pontius Pilate held his position from 26-36 and the only years in which Nisan 14 fell on a Friday are 27, 33, and 36 and possibly in 30 depending on when the new moon would have been visible in Jerusalem. Scholars have defended all of the dates.

This understanding of the Gospels is difficult to reconcile with the tradition that holds the Last Supper took place on the first night of Passover which is defined in the Torah to be the 14th of Nisan. Furthermore, at that time, the date of Passover was set by the court in Jerusalem based upon testimony of witnesses. It was not until after 500 that the calendar was changed to be based upon calculation. Therefore, it is not possible to state on which day of the week the 14 of Nisan occurred for any year before 500 without historical documents that attest to a particular day of the week.

Brief timeline of Jesus. Important years from empirical sources.

c. 6 BC – Suggested birth (Earliest)

c. 4 BC – Herod's death

c. AD 6 – Suggested birth (Latest). Quirinius census

c. AD 26 – Pilate appointed Judea governor

c. AD 27 – Suggested death (Earliest).

c. AD 36 – Suggested death (Latest);

note - that eclipse ? happened in the year 29 - yet that doesn't fit the time line of the crucifixion .

the pieces just don't fit.

[Emma_Acid]

We know inside of us lies an unbiological/unmaterial entity we deem to be the soul.

No, we don't know this. We have consiousness, and we have empathy, emotions, self-awareness and a tendancy towards self-preservation. But we don't know we have a soul. For all we know, the "soul" is a Christian invention to support the "everlasting life" idea. After all, how can you live forever if "you" is just mortal felsh and nothing else?

I wonder if before the invention of radio if conversation about the possibility of radio waves could have been thought of as within the spiritual realm.

Why would they have had a conversation about something they didn't know existed?

There could be a form of undiscovered and unmeasured energy used during creation. It could be interpreted as part of the essence of God. And constitute evidence of a benevolent creator.

But that's two comepletely different things Irish. Unmeasured energy during creation? Sure! Why not. There's so much we don't know about it, I think its probable that you're right. But this is not the same thing as a "benevolent creator".

You can say that God permeates the universe and was the energy at the moment of the big bang, I have no issues with this. But you can't then try and reconcile this with a biblical, benevolent deity. You're making the rules up as you go along. Which is it? A type of energy during the big bang, or a guy in the clouds who judges your every move and won't let you into his eternal party until you apologise for being human?

I know this is going off on a tangent slightly, but what I'm trying to get at is that science cannot prove the bible. I have no problems with an omnipotent creator, but it (not he) is nothing like its been described throughout history and certainly not "benevolent".

[ravergirl]

It means there was an earthquake that coincided with the supposed eclipse. I never said that didn't happen. Indeed i said that could probably be proven. I didn't notice the reference in his post either though. Regardless, His research does not involve the earthquake. Stop it. It makes you seem foolish.

I'll reword my post again for ya.

None of this has happened. What are you talking about? Yes, we can go back and determine if an earthquake may have determined at a certain time or not. I would indeed believe that to be correct in cunjunction with a biblical reference. He has in no way shape or form mentioned RESEARCH INVOLVING an earthquake. He mentioned an eclipse and computer models to verify how it happened. Biblical locations are found all the time, but they still haven't found evidence of a worldwide flood, but they keep looking. The difference is that they have evidence to look for. There is no physical evidence of an eclipse to search for. Therefore all he has to go off of, are biblical references from the time period refering to what may or may have not been an eclipse. the same folks that assumed they'd fall off the end of the earth if they sailed far enough. Do you follow what I'm getting at here? Don't shift the focus of the thread to something you can argue. That's called thread jacking you see. I would make my own thread about biblical geological evidece if I were you.

I stand by my post. Are you capable of responding to it? Or do you wish to be petty?

My point is that YOU SAID the OP "did not in any way shape or form" mention those things. And while the OP might not care about the significance of several disasters happening on the same day. The whole point of the event being supernatural is that it was an UNSCHEDULED eclipse, an earthquake without plate shifting, and the distruction of the sanctity of the temple.

It there is repetitive documented text from non-religious, un-biased sources that these events did occur, then there is proof of the supernatural.

What's this perhaps this perhaps that stuff? Stop cherry picking what you feel to be true. and twisting everything else to meet the argument. Perhaps Jesus was latino, and was a professional kickboxer. What are you thinking about?

I'm not cherry picking what I feel to be true. We don't fricking know everthing that happened. We don't HACKING know anything that wasn't written down. We don't know what kinds of secret conversations got held in allyways, or what kind of gold or salt passed hands. We do know that most of these people were real people, and we know how present day people behave.......It would be ignorant to not consider the possibility of corruption, and foolish to expect better of them. Which is why it IS A MYSTERY.

[bleedingelite]

I think that philosophy is central to Buddhism. Not knowing certain things is one thing. Realizing that they don't matter is enlightening! that is what initially appealed to me about Buddhism.

I haven't personally studied Buddhism, but when I was in college a group of tibetan monks led by a lama of some sort (a man, not the animal) came and spoke to us about their beliefs and life in their monastery. Apparently, the education of the monks involves several different stages, one of which is a several year period where the monks in training do nothing but debate with each other and their elders on the meanings of the various texts and teachings. He said that, through this method, the philosophies of Buddhism are constantly being scrutinized and discussed to ensure that they remain relevant. I think that's pretty amazing, as you don't find that sort of thing in religions very often. I mean, believers applying logic and relevance to ancient writings.

[+Sherapy]

I haven't personally studied Buddhism, but when I was in college a group of tibetan monks led by a lama of some sort (a man, not the animal) came and spoke to us about their beliefs and life in their monastery. Apparently, the education of the monks involves several different stages, one of which is a several year period where the monks in training do nothing but debate with each other and their elders on the meanings of the various texts and teachings. He said that, through this method, the philosophies of Buddhism are constantly being scrutinized and discussed to ensure that they remain relevant. I think that's pretty amazing, as you don't find that sort of thing in religions very often. I mean, believers applying logic and relevance to ancient writings.

HMM that is interesting and amazing..If christianity would do this lots would change...

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

My point is that YOU SAID the OP "did not in any way shape or form" mention those things. And while the OP might not care about the significance of several disasters happening on the same day. The whole point of the event being supernatural is that it was an UNSCHEDULED eclipse, an earthquake without plate shifting, and the distruction of the sanctity of the temple.

It there is repetitive documented text from non-religious, un-biased sources that these events did occur, then there is proof of the supernatural.

I'm not cherry picking what I feel to be true. We don't fricking know everthing that happened. We don't HACKING know anything that wasn't written down. We don't know what kinds of secret conversations got held in allyways, or what kind of gold or salt passed hands. We do know that most of these people were real people, and we know how present day people behave.......It would be ignorant to not consider the possibility of corruption, and foolish to expect better of them. Which is why it IS A MYSTERY.

To YOU that is proof of the supernatural. To myself it's still a big maybe. Using your logic, I suppose the Kraken was real? How about dragons and elves! Big believer in Merlin are we? Use your head.

As for your second reply, this only gives yet another reason as to why your biblical evidence may not be true as well. It works both ways. The writers could have been payed off to falsify every supernatural event in the bible. Who's being ignorant now? If you wish to drag this into the gutter, I will not follow you there. I, and others have made valid arguments which you refuse to acknowledge. You, as usual, cannot do so. Once again, I do not question the validity of being able to discover if an earthquake happened at a certain time in history, which the original poster has not done, nor plans to do so. As far as verifying your magical eclipse... Um yeah, good luck with that, for all of the reasons mentioned above. If you wish to believe in these supernatural events without any credible evidence whatsoever, that's wonderful. Non Christians need a little bit more. I'm sorry.

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

HMM that is interesting and amazing..If christianity would do this lots would change...

From my observations, adaptation is not Chritianity's strong suit.

[Irish]

irish I rather enjoy that we have different posits ..... very interesting indeed ..and i expect you wil not agree with me either lol ...

one of the stumbling blocks I have with the "consciousness" theme using your quote as my springboard "Since consciousness itself contains no physical attributes it should exists within the realm of the esoteric rather than the physical plane, therefore those that demand physical evidence of God, Souls, Ghosts or an after life are in fact limiting there sense of reasoning and understanding to a limited paradoxical plane."

for me it is an anthropomorphic approach to understanding ( or the disneyland version of existance. I do not nessecarily dispute that it may make things easier to glue together but is flawed in my view). Basically for me It is premature to hold something to be in an "esoteric realm" when we have yet to clearly define and understand what 'consciousness' even is.

How is one open when they are leaping to a predetermined posit versus saying i just don't know at this time and that is okay with me..., ..

conciousness is not needed to create an illusion, but it is necessary to percieve the illusion.

Sheri & Dr Peter, My point is that we should place ideas and concepts within the probable or possible in order to understand the larger picture. Sometimes it is good to put the cart before the horse. Once you have crossed the river of thought the path appears behind you. (You are right; I am starting to sound like a Buddhist). The ability of flight was a preconceived notion before the invention of the airplane. Yesterday’s science fiction becomes today’s science because of preconceived notions.

I see dreams as the mother of invention rather than necessity! To me it’s not good enough to say “I do not know because scientist do not know” you place yourselves in the very same position as followers of a religious cult when you limit your thinking to the dictates of an elite few, scientists become the new age guru’s and high priests of your world view.

An example of this kind of thought, to consider! The idea of “teleportation” is crossing the realm of possibility into the realm of probability because someone somewhere has seen the leeway from across the river. They will invent such a device in time because they refuse to be limited by physical barriers and restrictions.

Perhaps this is why faith is important to know God, it is “that bridge behind us” As a former atheist for 25 years of my life I crossed that river with faith and now my faith has been replaced with personal proof and evidence I can no longer deny His existence because we communicate every day.

Irish

[ravergirl]

To YOU that is proof of the supernatural. To myself it's still a big maybe. Using your logic, I suppose the Kraken was real? How about dragons and elves! Big believer in Merlin are we? Use your head.

As for your second reply, this only gives yet another reason as to why your biblical evidence may not be true as well. It works both ways. The writers could have been payed off to falsify every supernatural event in the bible. Who's being ignorant now? If you wish to drag this into the gutter, I will not follow you there. I, and others have made valid arguments which you refuse to acknowledge. You, as usual, cannot do so. Once again, I do not question the validity of being able to discover if an earthquake happened at a certain time in history, which the original poster has not done, nor plans to do so. As far as verifying your magical eclipse... Um yeah, good luck with that, for all of the reasons mentioned above. If you wish to believe in these supernatural events without any credible evidence whatsoever, that's wonderful. Non Christians need a little bit more. I'm sorry.

What do you mean using my logic? And why do you always deal in absolutes? The Kraken, dragons, and elves, and merlin hardly have the intense following that biblical events do.

I don't disagree with your second paragraph. You are right, they could have been paid off! but you want to discredit evidence that hasn't even been looked for or found out before looking at it just because the results MIGHT be that supernatural events do occur.

Of course non-christians need a little bit more evidence, they always will, I always will.

I just don't understand why you have so much trouble questioning things and wondering about things. Why do you ALWAYS have to be on the evidence supported side of an argument? If someone gives you a lump of clay do you see phylliosilicate minerals or do you see a vase?

Don't you want to expand your knowledge? Can you expand your knowledge without asking questions?

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

Sheri & Dr Peter, My point is that we should place ideas and concepts within the probable or possible in order to understand the larger picture. Sometimes it is good to put the cart before the horse. Once you have crossed the river of thought the path appears behind you. (You are right; I am starting to sound like a Buddhist). The ability of flight was a preconceived notion before the invention of the airplane. Yesterday’s science fiction becomes today’s science because of preconceived notions.

I see dreams as the mother of invention rather than necessity! To me it’s not good enough to say “I do not know because scientist do not know” you place yourselves in the very same position as followers of a religious cult when you limit your thinking to the dictates of an elite few, scientists become the new age guru’s and high priests of your world view.

An example of this kind of thought, to consider! The idea of “teleportation” is crossing the realm of possibility into the realm of probability because someone somewhere has seen the leeway from across the river. They will invent such a device in time because they refuse to be limited by physical barriers and restrictions.

Perhaps this is why faith is important to know God, it is “that bridge behind us” As a former atheist for 25 years of my life I crossed that river with faith and now my faith has been replaced with personal proof and evidence I can no longer deny His existence because we communicate every day.

Irish

First of all, I'm no athiest. I'm a Buddhist. Secondly, it takes faith to believe there is no higher power as well. I've never questioned the possibility of the supernatural, religous or otherwise. I just choose not to worry about it. It's a fun hobby to think and discuss these possibilities, but for myself, They don't really matter. Faith isn't important to know god, it's required to know god. And that's a beautiful thing. but to me, it doesn't matter either way. The issue here is that there are some Christians who are attmpting to prove the existance of God and the supernatural within' the realm of science in order to validate it in the eyes of non-christians. It can't be done, at this point in time anyway. Who knows what we'll know in 2000 years, or within the next 15 minutes for that matter. But as for now, It certainly remains a possibility, yes. I respect your's and other's faith, it is indeed a beautiful thing. However, I don't respect someone attempting to prove religion with pseudoscience, and attempting to hawk a book while doing so. I respect even less, people who take it as fact, when the guy hasn't even conducted his research. Let him finish, then we may have something to debate. Not now though.

[+Sherapy]

What do you mean using my logic? And why do you always deal in absolutes? The Kraken, dragons, and elves, and merlin hardly have the intense following that biblical events do.

I don't disagree with your second paragraph. You are right, they could have been paid off! but you want to discredit evidence that hasn't even been looked for or found out before looking at it just because the results MIGHT be that supernatural events do occur.

Of course non-christians need a little bit more evidence, they always will, I always will.

I just don't understand why you have so much trouble questioning things and wondering about things. Why do you ALWAYS have to be on the evidence supported side of an argument? If someone gives you a lump of clay do you see phylliosilicate minerals or do you see a vase?

Don't you want to expand your knowledge? Can you expand your knowledge without asking questions?

rave quotes:

"If someone gives you a lump of clay do you see phylliosilicate minerals or do you see a vase?"

Rave you asked a question that already had the answers and that is generally how religion asks questions...

.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri

[ravergirl]

rave quotes:

"If someone gives you a lump of clay do you see phylliosilicate minerals or do you see a vase?"

Rave you asked a question that already had the answers and that is generally how religion asks questions...

.

religion doesn't ask questions. People ask questions, Religion provides answers.

[+Sherapy]

Sheri & Dr Peter, My point is that we should place ideas and concepts within the probable or possible in order to understand the larger picture. Sometimes it is good to put the cart before the horse. Once you have crossed the river of thought the path appears behind you. (You are right; I am starting to sound like a Buddhist). The ability of flight was a preconceived notion before the invention of the airplane. Yesterday's science fiction becomes today's science because of preconceived notions.

I see dreams as the mother of invention rather than necessity! To me it's not good enough to say "I do not know because scientist do not know" you place yourselves in the very same position as followers of a religious cult when you limit your thinking to the dictates of an elite few, scientists become the new age guru's and high priests of your world view.

An example of this kind of thought, to consider! The idea of "teleportation" is crossing the realm of possibility into the realm of probability because someone somewhere has seen the leeway from across the river. They will invent such a device in time because they refuse to be limited by physical barriers and restrictions.

Perhaps this is why faith is important to know God, it is "that bridge behind us" As a former atheist for 25 years of my life I crossed that river with faith and now my faith has been replaced with personal proof and evidence I can no longer deny His existence because we communicate every day.

Irish

I think its fair to say that its science that has been the reason we have the advancements we do.......

if we 'teleport' it will be science that comes up with the way to do it....

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

What do you mean using my logic? And why do you always deal in absolutes? The Kraken, dragons, and elves, and merlin hardly have the intense following that biblical events do.

I don't disagree with your second paragraph. You are right, they could have been paid off! but you want to discredit evidence that hasn't even been looked for or found out before looking at it just because the results MIGHT be that supernatural events do occur.

Of course non-christians need a little bit more evidence, they always will, I always will.

I just don't understand why you have so much trouble questioning things and wondering about things. Why do you ALWAYS have to be on the evidence supported side of an argument? If someone gives you a lump of clay do you see phylliosilicate minerals or do you see a vase?

Don't you want to expand your knowledge? Can you expand your knowledge without asking questions?

Who's dealing in absolutes. Where have you been? I never said that this stuff couldn't be true, only that it is imposible to prove using science as we know it today.

Next, just because something has an intense following does not make it true. The parallel was between the two subjects being written about in history... as fact. I stand by the statement. Using your logic, they must be real.

To answer your other question I see neither. I see a lump of clay. If I choose to create a vase with it or use a mass spectrometer to analyse it, then I will see the other two things in your statement.

Finally, You can't expand your knowledge without asking questions. Unless you take some crakpot pseudo-scientist at his word before he actually finishes his expiriment. Then, have you really gained any knowledge? If you wish to be a sheep, then yes, you can choose to not question things you are told. I am not a sheep, I am ahuman being with the ability to reason.

Edited December 4, 2008 by Dr. Peter Venkman

[+Sherapy]

religion doesn't ask questions. People ask questions, Religion provides answers.

In other words, the book can be interpreted to meet whatever objective one desires......thats the point that is being made IMO ...

perhaps a closer look will reveal that religion has decided what questions will be asked .....

Edited December 4, 2008 by Tangerine Sheri

[+Sherapy]

Who's dealing in absolutes. Where have you been? I never said that this stuff couldn't be true, only that it is imposible to prove using science as we know it today.

Next, just because something has an intense following does not make it true. The parallel was between the two subjects being written about in history... as fact. I stand by the statement. Using your logic, they must be real.

To answer your other question I see neither. I see a lump of clay. If I choose to create a vase with it or use a mass spectrometer to analyse it, then I will see the other two things in your statement.

Finally, You can't expand your knowledge without asking questions. Unless you take some crakpot pseudo-scientist at his word before he actually finishes his expiriment. Then, have you really gained any knowledge? If you wish to be a sheep, then yes, you can choose to not question things you are told. I am not a sheep, I am ahuman being with the ability to reason.

perhaps you are suggesting inductive reasoning. as opposed to deductive .....

[Irish]

I think its fair to say that its science that has been the reason we have the advancements we do.......

if we 'teleport' it will be science that comes up with the way to do it....

Science is only a list of known facts. It is men with vision and perception that make advancements and science only verifies their revelation and new knowledge.

[AlexG]

Science is only a list of known facts. It is men with vision and perception that make advancements and science only verifies their revelation and new knowledge.

Not so. If you think science is only a list of facts, you don't know what science is.