When Does it End?

[stillcrazy]

I generally did not think that we, coalition forces, should just pull out of Iraq due to the attacks on our military forces. However, after reading the story and viewing the pictures, I feel that enough is enough. Get all military forces and civilian personel out of Iraq. Let them destroy themselves and elect another Saddam to murder, rape and torture their own people. Killing military personel is one thing, it's a war zone. Killing civilians is another thing. They were acting on behalf of our forces to help deliver food to a city in need. But the dragging, mutilating and public display of the bodies is too much.

I have yet to hear one other nation, or cleric condemn these actions.

I can only hope that their god treats them in death as they have treated these four Americans in life.

Mobs mutilate bodies

Police retrieved the remains of the four slain Americans on Wednesday night, wrapped them in blankets and gave them to U.S. forces, Iraqi police Lt. Salah Abdullah said.

“We were shocked because our Islamic beliefs reject such behavior,” he said, referring to the abuse of the bodies, one of the most shocking episodes of the year-long U.S. military involvement in Iraq.

Some of the bodies were loaded onto the back of a donkey-pulled wooden cart Wednesday and paraded through Fallujah’s streets as crowds clapped and whistled.

Blackwater Security Consulting, a company based in Moyock, N.C., said in a statement Thursday that the four victims were its employees. The company, which hires former military members from the United States and other countries to provide security training and guard services, was hired by the Defense Department to provide security for convoys that delivered food in the Fallujah area.

Warning: One of the photos depicts a badly burned body of an American civilian.

Full Story With pictures

[Erikl]

Don't give up!

I know how you feel, believe me (the same thing and even worst happened to three Israelis in Ramalah in 2000).

But this is exactly what the terrorists are trying to do - change public opinion of the American people so that the United States will pull its forces from Iraq.

If you'll pull it now, you'll let the terrorists win.

The same thing happened in Mugadisho, 1993. Than Clinton returned the American forces back home, giving the terrorists exactly what thry wanted.

Assymetric war is hard. It's ugly. And especially against a foe that has no respect to Western culture, which he hates.

The Lynch yesterday was organized by some one, be sure. Now it's time to find them and make sure they couldn't organize another such horrible act.

[DreamRebel]

[Edit] Post removed

[stillcrazy]

Stillcrazy - watch your video again. This incensed me in the same way as watching the 911 WTC Jumpers. Im p***ed and with Erikl - no giving up!!

I know both of you are right. Maybe we should just surround the city and let them come and beg our forces for food and water. We would of course provide it, in exchange for the b******* that committed the horrible crime.

Thanks for viewing my video. Now I wish I still had the rights to the international version, It's not just the U.S. that's involved.

[Scorpius]

A better strategy would be to do a clean sweep of Iraq. Focusing on removing these terrorists from the rest of the civilians.

The military needs to clearly speak to the people of Iraq and explain their motives in being in Iraq. This event has shown that ignorance isn't tolerated.

[Nancy]

I had not seen any of the photos, until this thread.

stillcrazy, as others have said, I do understand how you feel.... It is a double edged sword and that is always darn close to impossible to accept.

For decades, this area of Iraq (and others as well) have lived this way, as animals.

I am including a link and several quotes from the head of the Coalition concerning our next step...... Don't give up now stillcrazy! We will win!

AP Article

U.S. Vows 'Overwhelming' Reponse to Grisly Murders

Fresh Attacks Wound Three U.S. Troops, One Iraqi

By SAMEER N. YACOUB, AP

FALLUJAH, Iraq (April 1) - A U.S. general vowed an ''overwhelming'' response to the murder and mutilation of four American contractors, but U.S. troops stayed out of this anti-American city Thursday and fearful Iraqi police took no action.

Residents said they were ready to take on the Americans if they try to enter Fallujah, where schools and shops remained open a day after insurgents ambushed the contractors' SUVs and mobs strung up two of their charred corpses on an iron bridge spanning the Euphrates River.''We wish that they would try to enter Fallujah so we'd let hell break loose,'' Ahmed al-Dulaimi said. ''We will not let any foreigner enter Fallujah,'' said Sameer Sami. ''Yesterday's attack is proof of how much we hate the Americans.''

''We will pacify that city. ... It will be at the time and place of our choosing,'' Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt said, pledging to hunt down those who carried out Wednesday's killings, which were reminiscent of the televised abuse of the corpses of American soldiers in Somalia in 1993.Kimmitt promised a response that will be ''deliberate'' and ''overwhelming,'' and said troops didn't respond at the time for fear of ambushes or the insurgents might use of civilians as human shields. He also said U.S. forces took into account that the contractors were already dead.''We are not going to do a pell-mell rush into the city,'' he said. ''A pre-emptive attack into the city could have taken a bad situation and made it even worse.''

[Gazz]

Pulling out may sound like a good option

and in the short term it will save the

lives of those there to help the Iraqis

develop a free nation.

But that is exactly what the Radical

Muslims of this world want.

It would leave an Iraq that would become

a quite powerful Islamic nation... one

that is far more radical than that of

Afghanistan under the Talban.

The very people who pulled off the attacks

of 9/11/01 all were trained in Afghanstan

under the rule of the taliban and it's

radical views of Islam and the order of

the world .. they actually believed that

they could along with Al-Qaeda by force

or terror convert the entire world to

Islam, or kill all of those who were

either not worthy of the faith or would

not be converted.

If we pull out of Iraq now we leave it

a far greater threat than it was before

this last "war".

Osama Bin Laden said in 1998 that they

(Al-Qaeda) "would bring the infidels to

their knees and ignite their evil passion

for war, bringing them to war in the

arab land and there we will break their

will, Allah willing this will be the

begining of the end for those who

stand with the Jew and evil empire"

There is a good chance that maybe Osama

was planning farther ahead than anyone

thought... and this is just a part of

his ultimate plan.. he is hardly a stupid

man and I am sure he expected this reaction

they did see how quickly we cut and ran

in Somolia' (spelling?)

Many times these radical Islamists have

said they would either convert the world

to Islam or rid it of the 'infidels'.

If we pull out of Iraq we create a nation

that would give them the base they need

to grow and spread their twisted faith.

and room to train terrorists.

Never underestimate the enemy!

No matter what you think Osama Bin

Laden was and is a man of vision.

Could he have been looking this far

ahead?

Who knows!

Pulling out of Iraq is not an option

it would be one of the greatest mistakes

of all time.

Gazz

Edited April 2, 2004 by Gazz

[shirini]

Pulling out my sound like a good option

and in the short term it will save the

lives of those there to help the Iraqis

develop a free nation.

But that is exactly what the Radical

Muslims of this world want.

It would leave an Iraq that would become

a quite powerful Islamic nation... one

that is far more radical than that of

Afghanistan under the Talban.

I agree with Gazz.

We are a the point of no return, leaving now would be a very bad idea.

It's so digusting that these people would do this to other human beings and are just so proud of themsleves. I say we start to inforcing their Islamic Law, a life for a life!

Edited April 2, 2004 by shirini

[KayEl]

Personally, these animals are no better than the KKK during a lynching (probably worse because they have the PC shield protecting them). I think we ended the assualt on Iraq way too early.

[Edited out]

KayEl, please keep in mind that posts such as the bit that was edited out will not be tolerated in the future. Thank you for your kind understanding.

Edited April 3, 2004 by Phantom

[bathory]

i say get the pro-democratic iraqis out and lay seige to the town

[Stamford]

The problems facing the coalition troops are simiar to those faced by the British troops in Northern Ireland and the US in Vietnam.

It is hard to win a war when your enemies are smiling at you by day and planting bombs at night.

In retrospect, fighting an army is a far easier task because you can see them, they wear uniforms and they stand and fight; now the enemies facing the US and British forces are civilians, they use hit and run tactics and seek out the soft targets.

Don't forget that the western civilian casualties are tiny in comparisson to the Iraqi civilian and Police deaths, which are running into the hundreds.

I was against the war, but now that we are there we have a duty to finish what we started; by pulling out now we will leave the area destabalised and a fundamentalist stronghold.

[wunarmdscissor]

once again stamford you are the voice of reason.

The problem is that i really amnt sure if these people who committed this atrocity are fundamentalists anyore. Are these people just outraged ordinary Iraqis?

HOw can we knnow they arent? and if it is the case that they are then it means that we have another vietnam on our hands.

Problem is now that we're there we're damned if we do an damned if we dont.

We pull out without securing the place the whole region will fall into chaos but if we stay our troops an civilians die .

[Stamford]

Problem is now that we're there we're damned if we do an damned if we dont.

Your right as usual mate.

Did you see the burning British Troops in Basa the other day?

This was supposed to be an area that is pro-coalition, but the longer we stay the more anti these guys will become; resentment will breed more violence and of course we will have to counter this, which ultimately breeds more resentment and the cycle continues.

The same thing happened in Northern Ireland; in '69 the British Army went in to protect the catholic population from protestant attacks.

Once the army was there however the resentment bred violence and the IRA, which at the time was a marxist organisation split and the Provisional IRA was formed.

Up until that point the IRA and the army had an understanding, because both were trying to protect the catholic population; those that formed the Provisional wing were horrified that the IRA would work with the army and thus formed this new wing.

Of course, by then we were unable to leave because the country would have descended into civil war, much like Iraq will do now if we leave.

[thebarman]

I believe the problem comes down to political corectness, and so called "illegal wars". What a rediculous phrase, the very notion that a war can be legal or illegal is propostrous as each country has its own idea of what 'legal' is.

It's a problem I think first brought up in Vietnam, as previously mentioned...

It is hard to win a war when your enemies are smiling at you by day and planting bombs at night.

In the second world war did anyone worry about whether civilians were being bombed or not? No, they were German and that was that, and it was the same with them.

Now however, we have an enemy who has those same views we used to have, yet we must adopt a "don't shoot unless shot at" policy.

No-one can win a war this way, I'm sick of seeing cheering Iraqis, it's all they ever do, whether it's cheering because Saddam toppled or because American civilians have been killed, whatever the cause the Iraqis seem to cheer it.

Is it just me, or does the sight of a cheering Iraqi make you want to vomit

[Stamford]

Now however, we have an enemy who has those same views we used to have, yet we must adopt a "don't shoot unless shot at" policy.

The problem is whatever you do in this situation it will not resolve the matter.

If, you follow the British Army's method, which is a softly-softly approach, you will continue to make yourself an easy target, however, if we take a more aggresive stance you simply whip up more resentment against the troops, which plays into the hands of the terrorists.

[thebarman]

The problem is whatever you do in this situation it will not resolve the matter.

OK, so if we can't withdraw because it will cause a civil war, and we can't be more aggresive because it will cause more resentment towards troops, then what can we do?

Because whatever we're doing at the moment it doesn't seem that effective, I suspect introducing democracy to a country used to dictatorship may tear it apart.

The freedom of choice is dangerous in a society that has never chosen before

Edited April 2, 2004 by thebarman

[mowo]

I think we owe it to the Iraqi people to stay and finished what we started.

It's so digusting that these people would do this to other human beings and are just so proud of themsleves.

these animals are no better than the KKK during a lynching (probably worse because they have the PC shield protecting them). I think we ended the assualt on Iraq way too early.

Bombs away!!!!

For decades, this area of Iraq (and others as well) have lived this way, as animals

I think what we need to understand is that we have just fought a war on these peoples soil.

They have seen far worse things with their own eyes than any of us have ever seen in a newspaper article from the comfort of our surroundings.

we need to understand the level of hatred and the causes of it, before trying to deal with it.

Simply resorting to racism or referring to conquered people as 'animals' when they are humans like the rest of us, will not solve anything.

[Stamford]

OK, so if we can't withdraw because it will cause a civil war, and we can't be more aggresive because it will cause more resentment towards troops, then what can we do?

I don't know.

This was my fear before the war; it is one thing beating an army, but the battle for hearts and minds is far more difficult.

The invasion was a rallying call to all Islamic Fundamentalists; in many ways it simply prooved to them that the West is engaged in a crusade against Islam.

All I know is that a lot more civilians, Policemen and our own forces are going to die.

I expect that we will hand over power to an Iraqi council and that this violence will continue, much like it has in Afganhistan.

[Erikl]

The worst thing the US can do in return is to act as they did in Vietnam - that is, carpet bombing everything. In an assymetric war, there are three very important strategies, that should be fought together, and never stop untill the enemy is defeated:

1. Making the leaders of the terrorists uncomfotable. Chasing them with Delta-teams or whatever. Making them afraid and worried. Making them know that they are not safe. This will make them more occupied in saving their lives than in planning more attacks.

2. Money money money. Drying out all money sources for the terrorists - without money, there is no propaganda in Mosques, no explosives, no weapons, no reward to the suicide-bomber's family.

3. Winning local population's support - this is the hardest of all strategies, and this is also one of the crucial one for a war on terror to succeed. Both Britain in N. Ireland and the US in Vietnam and Israel in the disputed territories faild in this one. By winning the local's support, you make it easier to chase the terrorists among them, and it also give them hard time finding new recruits and hidding.

As you can see, all the actions above are connected. You can't win an assymetric war with only one or two of those strategies. All of them have to be used.

[Stamford]

While I agree with your comments Erikl, I would point out the following:

1. Making the leaders of the terrorists uncomfotable. Chasing them with Delta-teams or whatever. Making them afraid and worried. Making them know that they are not safe.

We have been chasing Osama for three years without success.

Who are the leaders of the resistance/terrorists in Iraq?

2. Money money money. Drying out all money sources for the terrorists - without money, there is no propaganda in Mosques, no explosives, no weapons, no reward to the suicide-bomber's family.

Money is not the only thing that inspires these people to undertake their actions. The mob that slaughtered the US civilians were not paid for their act, they did it out of hatred.

3. Winning local population's support - this is the hardest of all strategies

Agreed, but I believe that in the case of Iraq this is impossible; we are the invaders of a Muslim country and because of this fact alone we will never win these people over.

[Erikl]

We have been chasing Osama for three years without success.

Who are the leaders of the resistance/terrorists in Iraq?

Regarding Bin-Laden - I never said it's going to be easy. But eventually I believe you will catch him.

Regarding Iraq - this is what the US and UK should find out now. They should investigate it.

Money is not the only thing that inspires these people to undertake their actions. The mob that slaughtered the US civilians were not paid for their act, they did it out of hatred.

Money doesn't inspire terrorists - forget it. Maybe it inspires their leaders, but not a terrorist that is about to commit a suicide attack. But money does make it possible for the leaders of the terrorist organizations to buy weapons, explosives and finance their propaganda in Mosques. By cutting off their financial sources you make it impossible or very hard for them to put their hands on weapons or organize a lynch. That's right - the lynch in Iraq was organize by someone, and that someone needed money to organize and plan this horrible crime.

Agreed, but I believe that in the case of Iraq this is impossible; we are the invaders of a Muslim country and because of this fact alone we will never win these people over.

You could look at it this way, but there's another way to look at the situation - you freed those people from the hands of a criminal. For the first time Shiites can pray without fear. Kurds now have autonomy and are freed from Saadam's tyrany.

All the people of Iraq are now free to build their own life without the fear of disappearing without a trace. Or being turtured in prison. You should emphesize those achievments.

There is much to be done in Iraq, be sure. The symetric war was over a year ago.

The assymetric war has just began.

Edited April 2, 2004 by Erikl

[Stamford]

I do admire your confidence Erikl, I really do.

Maybe I am just an old cynic who grew up with Northern Ireland on the news every night and bombs going off in my own back yard.

I do agree that cutting off the supply of money may help, but remember this is a country where most men are armed (it is one of their signs of power/success). Many of the flashpoints between coalition forces and Iraqi civlians have occurred when the soldiers tried to disarm them.

Also, many of the weapons being used are crude to say the least; much like the Japanese in WW2 and the Viet Cong in Vietnam, the terrorists use any and all kinds of explosive devises to make crude, but very effective, road side bombs.

The 5 US troops killed the same day as the civilians I belive were killed by one such devise.

Iraq is an extremely porous country and smuggling weapons into it is pretty easy by all accounts, therefore these guys will continue to get their hands on RPGs, etc.

[KayEl]

Don't forget that the western civilian casualties are tiny in comparisson to the Iraqi civilian and Police deaths, which are running into the hundreds.

Too bad! I am more concern about who is on MY side first and foremost.

[Erikl]

I do admire your confidence Erikl, I really do.

Maybe I am just an old cynic who grew up with Northern Ireland on the news every night and bombs going off in my own back yard.

I'm comming from pretty much the same envirement - I'm from Israel, so you could say I know a thing or two about what it's like to live under terrorism and how to fight it . The most important aspect of all is this: don't let them take you to their level. If they do, then it doesn't matter if you win or lose. The only way you can really win is by staying humane. Don't let yourself become ruthless killer as they are. Don't carpet bomb them. Don't use collective punishment. The only way to really win is to stay moral, even though the enemy has no respect to moral code what so ever.

Don't let lies that are spread about your actions get to you - in the end of the day, you will be the one who has to live with how you fought the war, not the critics. So if you stayed moral, you'll know deep inside that your fight is just, no matter what the critics are saying. And believe me, the critisism will come soon (from countries that were against the war to begin with).

Stay true to your moral code, and you'll truly win the war. Low yourself to their level, and even if you won the battle, you lost the war.

[Stamford]

QUOTE 

Don't forget that the western civilian casualties are tiny in comparisson to the Iraqi civilian and Police deaths, which are running into the hundreds. 

Too bad! I am more concern about who is on MY side first and foremost.

How humane of you.

My point is that the terrorists are targeting their own people as well; any that are seen as collaborating with the occupying forces are targets.

The Police and the Iarqi Security forces ARE on your side.

When suicide bombers attacked police stations the other week, killing hundreds of people, many were women and children.

Do you really have no concern for the civilian suffering there? If so, then that is very sad indeed.