When Does it End?

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

This is the first time that I saw any pictures, and they are as horrifying as I thought.

My sympathies, to the families of those civillian guards killed & mutilated in Iraq. It brought back to mind images from Iraq (and other nations) of the celebrations that occured post 9/11. Actions such as these will only strengthen tHe resolve of the Allied troops.

Dot9M

Regardless of my personal feeling of your president I still believe that Canada should have supported our closest neighbour & ally in Iraq.

[stillcrazy]

I want to thank everyone for posting on this thread. You all have stated your ideas in a very well reasoned manner. Without getting overboard on your views and respecting the ideas of others.

When I posted this thread it was out of frustration. While I knew about the killings and the degrading atrocities that those four suffered two days ago, it was as everyone else, a story on the news.

Yesterday morning it hit a little closer to home.

I recieved a call from a close friend and was told that one of the victims was his brother. While I did not know the man, other than his name and what he looked like, his older brother and I have become close over the years and I felt honored that I was one of the first people he called to tell of his brothers death.

It is very hard to listen to a grown man cry "the b******* burned his body, for no more reason than to show how much they hate us" What words can you say to ease that kind of pain?

I also felt very frustrated that this is, in my opinion, becoming another Viet Nam.

In reality, I know we cannot just pull out and let Iraq fall into a civil war. Many of those in the Sunni triangle would replace Saddam with version 2.0.

Again, thanks to everyone for their reasonable post. Blessing to all of you.

Sean M. AKA stillcrazy

[Stamford]

Yesterday morning it hit a little closer to home.

I am very sorry to hear of your sad news.

[WorkMonkey]

It's all about love, apparantly.

[stillcrazy]

It's all about love, apparantly.

Care to explain?

[Morpheus]

I find it hard to believe in many ways that any human being could do that to another, deceased or not. Upon first seeing those images I felt ill, and then I felt something that I have never felt and I am very ashamed, I felt HATE, pure and unabated hatred, it seems odd but I recon this is exactly what the terrorists want, they want us, the “civilized’ west to hate them as much as they hate us, its psychological warfare at its core. I find myself understanding the Israeli people more as each day passes, should they even falter once their way of life ceases to exist, for too long we as North Americans have lived a sheltered life, relatively far removed form the tribulations of the middle east content that our values kept us safe from such evils, September 11th changed that, the evil was brought to our shores and we have not been the same since. Examine if you will the US and Canadian anti terrorist bills, there are some very potent police powers granted which in the wrong hands violate everything which we hold dear, everything which makes us unique in the geo political spectrum. Police may arrest and detain without charges anyone whom they suspect may have terrorist ties, there are millions of Muslims who live in the US and Canada, do we suspect them all? Moreover, in the end is it not these fundamental changes to our freedoms that the terrorists really desire, to bring a little piece of hell to the jewel of democracy?

I agree that many of these measures have been necessary to protect our citizens, but in the long term do you think it wise to limit individual freedoms? After all, it is these freedoms, which make us so unique; do we give them up so easily? They have murdered our friends and family, struck at the very heart of what we are, they spread fear and dispense hate, no pulling out of Iraq is not the answer, we have an obligation to our children and grandchildren to wipeout fear, unfortunately many of our best and brightest may need to sacrifice themselves in order to obtain these ends. The biggest problem today is the fact that most of the fundamentalists still live in the dark ages, philosophies and edicts which are more than a millennia old, they have failed to progress socially and ethically to the 21st century. We do not seek to destroy Islam. Islam at its core is a religion of peace and tolerance, some have perverted its doctrine in order to legitimize these hate crimes and with each successive generation the hatred is permitted to perpetuate and grow, education is the key I think, elevate those to our level who would otherwise choose a more violent path, teach the Islamic youth that we are not their enemies, take away the members of these terrorist organizations before they become members, kill the organization from within as well as from outside. The only way I see to accomplish this is to continue the military operation against the terrorists, root out the evil and pick up the pieces, start all over again.

[Daughter of the Nine Moons]

Well said Morpheus.

[stillcrazy]

Update:

FALLUJAH, Iraq - At weekly prayers on Friday, a cleric condemned the mutilation of four slain American contractors in this conservative city, but did not criticize the killings.

The Associated Press Updated: 1:22 p.m. ET April 02, 2004

Full Artical

[KayEl]

Regardless of whether this "cleric" condemned or criticized the killings....in the end, TALK IS CHEAP.

[Anirbas]

First allow me to say I am a flag waver! I LOVE my country and would not do anything unpatriotic. As a matter of fact I supported this war when it started- I was and am annoyed that it wasn't finished 12 years ago when it started but I felt it was a good idea to take care of business. I never felt it was about 9/11 - I think that was just an excuse. Maybe I'm wrong. However, according to MANY of my military friends - the Iraqi's don't even want us there - let them have their damned country I want us out of there! These ARE NOT acceptable casualites. I tell you - my heart is broken! I feel this is the beginning of the end!

[KayEl]

Yeah, we are sacrificing our people's lives for a bunch of desert rodents.

Not a PC thing to say but that is how I feel.

And Bush stopped the war way too early, and he didn't have a pull out plan.

I agree with you. Let them have their frigging country, and seal our borders from the Middle East. Our country is diverse enough, we don't need their ingredients which don't mix well in our melting pot to begin with. They are trying to crack it.

[wunarmdscissor]

Yeah, we are sacrificing our people's lives for a bunch of desert rodents.

Its not un PC its racist and ill be making a complaint about it !!!!!!!

[Saru]

Agreed, let's avoid making racist remarks wherever possible please.

Thanks.

[Anirbas]

I would like to add the reason they don't want us there is not because they support someone like Saddam Hussain it's because they are opposed to westernization (did I spell that right - who knows not I). It reminds me of a love hate relationship - you know the kind where the husband beats teh crap out of the wife yet she takes him back time after time. Well, the Iraqi's may indeed be greatful that we have rescued them from SH but they don't want their country to be like us in the least. I understand that and it's fine with me - I do wish that the extreemists were tied and bound with duct tape until we were out of there and they can have their country back. Don't they know that we don't want it - at least I don't think we want it - does this make sense to anyone else?! We don't want to run their country yet we have destroyed it and have to rebuild it?! I am so confused - anyone else?! Does anyone else want to sit in the middle of the room and cry or how about take a ball bat to everything breakable in their house because of this? It's truly that fustrating to me - perhaps I need professional help!

[Scorpius]

Yeah, we are sacrificing our people's lives for a bunch of desert rodents.

Its not un PC its racist and ill be making a complaint about it !!!!!!!

I think KayEl's opinion should be edited out. This might provoke unwanted arguements.

Remember people, do not judge the innocent. There are also Iraqi's who think the US is good to stay and help. And that's why they should stay.

[stillcrazy]

Agreed, let's avoid making racist remarks wherever possible please.

Thanks.

While I don't feel the remark was racist per se, it wasn't called for. The majority of people in Iraq welcome the troops and are glad that the coalition is there. But we don't get to see those sound bites on the news.

My sorrow is for a friend that has lost his brother, at the hands of a ruthless mob that have no respect for thier own religion.

My anger is at the lack of the clerics who, while condemning the violations to the bodies, seem to think killing people who are trying to feed the hungry is okay.

KayEl, I understand your anger, you live with this type of atrocity daily. But it is not the people who are doing this. It is the clerics and leaders who get these folks whipped into a frenzy and cause the deaths.

I would like to see all troops go home to thier respective countries, but as long as these types of murders keep taking place, it will not be possible.

Peace to all, and please, out of respect for all those who have died, keep it civil.

[KayEl]

Interesting reaction. If I was to call members IRA "Green rodents", would I be called a racist?

Un PC indeed!

When a bunch of people act like animals I will say it as it is.

Then again, animals kill to survive. They are below animals, or rodents for that matter.

[Gazz]

Interesting reaction. If I was to call members IRA "Green rodents", would I be called a racist?

Un PC indeed!

When a bunch of people act like animals I will say it as it is.

Then again, animals kill to survive. They are below animals, or rodents for that matter.

KayEl.. you have gone too far now and

lost all chance here at any meaningfull

debate or discussion.

For you to see any other human as an

animal or even lower makes you look

like an uneducated fool.

It is thinking like yours that cause these

many conflicts we see all over the world

now.

And it does your own nation no good at

all.

Shame on you!

Gazz

[Erikl]

Hmmm... KayEl, I think it will be best if you be more specific - who do you mean when you say rodents? All the Iraqis, or just the terrorists? Because you mentioned the IRA as an analogy, I suspect you meant that the terrorists are animals. In that case, I don't think anyone here feel any sympathy or has any objection in calling those killers animals. On the other hand it will be an insult to the entire animal kingdom .

But you meant the entire Iraqi people - then it's plain and simple racism. And believe me, my country was attacked by Iraq, and I saw all the "destroy Israel and death to America" protests too many times. But equating an entire nation to animals? that is just bigotry.

Edited April 4, 2004 by Erikl

[KayEl]

<<For you to see any other human as an

animal or even lower makes you look

like an uneducated fool.>>

Once again, demonstration that the human species is so arrogant and so self-important into thinking we are so above other forms of life on this planet.

Come to think about, perhaps it is best that we all nuke each other and leave it all back to Mother Nature.

Happy days are here again!

The human race is gone

And I said Good Riddance!

Happy days are here again!

Now all the animals do the jig:

[Anirbas]

human as an

animal or even lower 

Uh I aint tryin to be racist - but to call them animals isn't being racist - what would you refer to someone who drags a human corpse through the streets and celebrates?

I have to say that the behavior I saw from the people of that town was indeed lower than that of animals. I have never seen an animal parade it's kill through the jungle.

If the shoe fits let them wear it!

Edited April 4, 2004 by Anirbas

[Gazz]

There is no doubt that terrorists are

evil and may deserve the title 'animal'

But when you lable an entire culture,

race, or religion as animals you cross

the line.

Hitler thought of the jews as animals

too.

I am as sickened by these events in Iraq

as anyone here, but this event does not

mean that ALL Iraqis are animals.

The same can be said of the palistinians,

Jews, one could go on and on.

We have to be careful when we apply

lables to other humans or some may think

you mean everyone of that place, region

or culture.

You can take the anger created by an

event like this and by calling them

animals brand all in that region as

nothing more than animals.

Exuse me if I have a bit more respect

for most of humanity.

Not all Iraqis are animals, though the

hell they have lived through for so long

may have made some so full of rage and

anger that radical islamists have been

able to move in and exploit their anger

under a twisted political motive.

Just be careful how you lable people

as animals.

Is that too much to ask?

There was a time when Hitler was able to

do the same and look what happened!

You can already see people everywhere

saying things like "kill em all"

"nuke them all" ... they may not be

serious but these things can lead to

a world where it is okay whith everyone

to kill all who fit a profile in the

name of "security"

Try thinking a bit farther into the future

not just tomorrow or next week.

Gazz

[Anirbas]

But when you lable an entire culture,

race, or religion as animals you cross

the line.

Well I can see where the original comment alluded to the entire culture but I don't feel thats what it was intended to be - after all if you read the original post it is talking about one specific incident. Furthermore perhaps you should re-read my comment I did NOT refer to the Iraqi's in general I refered to the town where this incident happend.

[stillcrazy]

Yo Folks.

Can we stop the debate on if it was a racial remark. Please.

I've heard a lot worst names applied to these people than desert rodent.

The whole point of the thread, was if we should pull out and stop our people from being killed by those who don't want our help in feeding the people of their country.

[Nancy]

Yo Folks.

Can we stop the debate on if it was a racial remark. Please.

Short, Sweet and to the Point. Very well said, stillcrazy!

Thank you!