When Does it End?

[KayEl]

Here we are discussing terms and intenst and busy trying separate the good from the bad or one is generalizing or not.....

I wonder if the terrorists even care that not all westerners are against Islam or prejudiced against the Middle East or tried to differentiate the "good" westerners and the "bad" westerners.

As I said, let the effing human race die off. The Earth would be better off.

The animals would be singing:

Happy days are here again!

All the humans will die off

And we can then say AMEN!

Happy days are here again!

I will spare you the jig afterwards....

[Morpheus]

The argument can be made that most if not all fundamentalist Muslims feel as though we ARE indeed trying to wipe out their culture, what with equal rights, civil liberties and religious freedom a constitutional right perhaps we as western Devils are trying a little too hard to influence those less fortunate than us, heck lets even go so far as to acuse the United States of the horrible crime of making the world a better place, God(Allah for our honorable islamic readers) forbid you American dogs wish everyone had the wealth and opportunity, not to mention the political, civil and religious tolerance that you enjoy everyday, when will you stop trying to elevate the quality of life for the common man(or woman as the case may be) and expunge the world of Stalin like dictatorships, what if some people really did like the ever present specter of death looming over their heads, or wondering if they would eat that day? I mean really don't people have the right to choose?....... Sarcasm aside, is it not these core values which the fundamentalists fear? give a man the opportunity to think for himself for a day and lose control over him forever. Few nations on this blue world of ours have the courage and conviction to change the world for the better, never before has this world seen a nation or state so willing to lay down the lives of its sons and daughters for a complete stranger, just so they may have the opportunity for a better life. I am Canadian, proud to be so, not only because of our rich heratige, but also because our relationship with the United States, I don't like to be a propaganda tool but I have to tell you with all honesty I salute America, for taking the charge against injustice and intolerance, for fighting for freedom and all the privaledges that come with it, for defending the ideals that all God(allah) loving men and women hold dear. God bless America, and God keep those abroad safe and those who have fallen God speed. I just hope that some day soon everybody realizes that we are fighting and dying in the name of the same God. Ironic don't you think?

[Stamford]

I just hope that some day soon everybody realizes that we are fighting and dying in the name of the same God.

Oh, so we are now involved in a religious war are we?

That would justify the Muslims suspicions that we are involved in a crusade then?

[thebarman]

The whole point of the thread, was if we should pull out and stop our people from being killed by those who don't want our help in feeding the people of their country.

Going back to the point...

I currently give a small yet generous amount each month to CARE International, one of the charities involved in giving supplies to the people of Iraq.

The thought that money I gave in good faith may have been used to feed one of the mob in the incident in question makes me sick, and as a direct result of reading this thread I have decided to withdraw my direct debit.

Also...

I don't think we should pull out of Iraq until a stable government has been restored. Actually restored is the wrong word, there wasn't a stable government to begin with. Perhaps 'Installed' would be a better phrase.

When Iraq has a working democracy, they can choose whether to keep it, or replace it.

I do however fear that if/when they elect a new leader that in a country where haters of western civilisation are still in the majority we may end up with another Saddam - and then all this will be in vain.

[Stamford]

It never ceases to amaze me that people here are suprised by the continuing levels of violence in Iraq.

Those of you who want to pull out now because the violence hasn't stopped; did you really think that, once the war was over, all of Iraq would simply lay down its weapons and start watching MTV?

Why are you suprised that there are terrorist cells still making opertunistic hits on 'soft' western targets?

By the way, in these guys minds they are not 'terrorists' but 'freedom fighters' who oppose what they see as a force of occupation.

This is the same simplistic view that was held by the IRA during the troubles; many Americans also bought into this romanticised version of the Irish struggle for freedom and donated money to this organisation, which it then used to continue to kill not only soldiers and policemen but also civilians.

It makes me so angry that people who supported this war in the first place now want to simply pull out because evertthing isn't going to plan.

Leaving Iraq now would have the following results:

Civil war between the various muslim factions in Iraq.

The Kurds wanting full Independence, which could lead to war with Turkey.

Sending a message to terrorists that these kinds of attacks against western targets work.

[Erikl]

Stamford -

[wunarmdscissor]

This is the same simplistic view that was held by the IRA during the troubles; many Americans also bought into this romanticised version of the Irish struggle for freedom and donated money to this organisation, which it then used to continue to kill not only soldiers and policemen but also civilians.

Ive tried to use that analogy before to try an attempt to get through to certain people , however all u get are blind denials its very frustrating.

One set of rules for one another set for another , smacks of ustter arrogance to me .

[Stamford]

Thanks to wunarmdscissor and Erikl.

I know that I am not alone in my amazement at the unbelievable naivety that some on this site continue to show when they discuss Iraq.

[thebarman]

Thanks to wunarmdscissor and Erikl.

I know that I am not alone in my amazement at the unbelievable naivety that some on this site continue to show when they discuss Iraq.

Why do you speak with such hostility, I completely agree with you, so do wunarmdscissor and Erikl, as far as I can tell we all agree we should not pull out of Iraq.

Or does anyone think any different?

[Stamford]

Err, I think you misread my post, or maybe I wasn't being clear enough, but I was thanking Erikl and wunarm for their support.

Any hostility in my post certainly wasn't aimed at you either, as I know we are in agreement on this.

Sorry if you picked up the wrong vibe from my post.

[thebarman]

Any hostility in my post certainly wasn't aimed at you either, as I know we are in agreement on this.

Sorry if you picked up the wrong vibe from my post.

Perhaps hostility was the wrong word to use, I know you were not criticising mine, wunarm or Erikls' posts.

Please forget I mentioned it, I find it one of those topics that is very hard to talk about without getting heated.

I've had far too many arguments with people who condemn our actions in Iraq it's good to finally talk with people who agree we're doing the right thing.

[stillcrazy]

I beg the forgiveness of those on this board. When I started this thread, I was in a high emotional state at the time, for reasons stated elswhere.

While I never supported the war for the reasons my government stated, I.E. WMD's, I agreed with the princilpes of removing Saddam from power due to his track record on killing his fellow countrymen. I have, and always will, support our troops in their actions to bring peace to this country that has not know any peace in thirty years.

The current problems is Iraq are not going to go away if we leave or stay. We opened up a can of worms that will never be closed. If we pull out, the terrorist win. If we stay, we will never see a democratic government intalled that is not under constant attack from terrorist.

Any way you look at it, it's a no win situation.

Peace to you all

[fearfulone]

We pull out we'll only be look upon like the Spanish...cowards who run. We've just got to finish the job...keep the peace, and protect our own people.

[Gazz]

We pull out we*ll only be look upon like the Spanish...cowards who run. We*ve just got to finish the job...keep the peace, and protect our own people.

You say finish the job... but really

how do we finish the job when it will

never end?

Like stillcrazy I believe we are damned

if we do and damned if we don't.

I have a hard time ever seeing Iraq

peacful and democratic enough for us

to leave.

If we do leave Iraq anytime in the near

future, may god help us with what comes

next.

Gazz

[shirini]

If we do leave Iraq anytime in the near

future, may god help us with what comes

next.

Amen.

[Stamford]

I beg the forgiveness of those on this board. When I started this thread, I was in a high emotional state at the time, for reasons stated elswhere.

What are you begging forgiveness for stillcrazy?

You like many people here have given a rational and very compassionate response to the spiralling chaos we now find ourselves in.

I wish that more people (i.e. our respective governments) had thought this way before blindly entering into this campaign.

I wish we could bring our troops home now, but we have a duty to fulfill and we must prepare ourselves for a long and bloody campaign.

Peace.

[Erikl]

To Stamford, stillcrazy, thebarman, wunarmdscissor and all the others who think the same:

As I don't have anything more to add to what was said here, I'll let Churchill say it for me, as I believe these are appropriate times for quoting great leaders:

I have, myself, full confidence that if all do their duty, if nothing is neglected, and if the best arrangements are made, as they are being made, we shall prove ourselves once again able to defend our Island home, to ride out the storm of war, and to outlive the menace of tyranny, if necessary for years, if necessary alone. We shall go on to the end; we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans; we shall fight on the beaches; we shall fight in the fields and in the streets; we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.

[Stamford]

Erikl

Sadly I do not think we have leaders of Churchill's character at the helm at the moment.

However, during tumultuous times great leaders rise up from the ranks and maybe we have one somewhere who can lead the world against these terrorists.

[thebarman]

We shall never surrender.

Very well said, or at least quoted.

That speach always sends shivers down my spine, it should be translated and printed on leaflets and scattered over Al-Quida territory

[Moonfairie]

I think that it will never end. People from Irak Israel, ex-Yougoslavia, South Africa and other country will never have peace in there country. Why ? Because the new generation only nows war. They are born with the war, they have fight for what they think was right, and they will die for it. They will learn to there children how to fight and die for an idea. We should never get involved in those war and let them fight forever. It's hopeless. There is no chance for them to make peace.

[thebarman]

We should never get involved in those war and let them fight forever. It's hopeless. There is no chance for them to make peace.

No no no no no no no please oh god no

We absolutely cannot let them fight forever, for eventually there would be a winner and who do you think they will turn their attention to then?

Yup, us.

A single dominant power in the middle-east would be a major shift of world power into the hands of a potentially religously extreme government.

It is the responsibility of the rest of the world to ensure any conflicts are resolved through peace and negotiation, not who has the larger army.

ps: Why do you mention South Africa, I'm not sure where they are involved in this?

[Stamford]

A single dominant power in the middle-east would be a major shift of world power into the hands of a potentially religously extreme government.

Wasn't this the case until the end of the First World War?

The Ottoman Empire was then dismantled and the seperate countries, such as Iraq and Iran were goverened over by the British and the French (I think I am right on this, but any history buffs who know a little more please feel free to correct me).

[bathory]

if it starts to drag out, we could just do what the Soviets did and kill anyone who disagrees. Sure its not nice, but it'll work:)

[thebarman]

Wasn't this the case until the end of the First World War?

I am not too sure on this, but that's not the point I was making, a middle-east power wouldn't have quite the same effect as it did then.

That was before the days when we and the Americans were hated for things like commercialisation and freedom of speech, not too mention the demand for oil is far far greater now.

A single power in the middle-east in control of that much oil and in the hands of an extremist government could potentially be crippling for the western world - that was my point.

I doubt anyone at the end of WW1 could even spell Islamic fundamentalism, let alone know what it is

[Stamford]

if it starts to drag out, we could just do what the Soviets did and kill anyone who disagrees. Sure its not nice, but it'll work:)

Didn't do the Soviets much good in the long run though did it?