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Was the Sphinx originally a lion ?

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The Sphinx in Egypt might have originally had the face of a lion, it is claimed. And it could be much older than previously thought, investigations led by a British geologist suggest. Egyptologists have long argued the monument outside Cairo, which has the head of a pharaoh and the body of a lion, was built soon after the first pyramid - around 4,500 years ago.

But geologist Colin Reader found that rain erosion on the Sphinx's enclosure suggests it was built many years before.

news icon View: Full Article | Source: The Daily Mail

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BaneSilvermoon

I've been using the gradual change from man worshiping nature to man worshiping man in religious debates for years. Often citing the Egyptians half man, half animal Pantheon as a mid point in the shift. If this were proven true it would make a perfect addition to my point.

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The_Spartan

This is the same thing Bauval and Hancock had been saying, but i dont buy it.

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mako

I had read of this theory several years ago...seems the orignator thought it was pre-Egyptian. :yes:

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Harte

This part of the story is not factual:

Schoch has argued that the particular weathering found on the body of the Sphinx and surrounding 'ditch' the monument was carved from, displays features that can only be caused from prolonged water erosion.

Schoch's dating is based on subsurface weathering in the floor of the Sphinx enclosure. The apparent water erosion is mentioned by him as supporting evidence, but the subsurface weathering is the result of exposure to the atmosphere, and has nothing at all to do with rainfall.

Reader came out with this theory of his several years ago.

Must be a slow news day.

And no, this is not the same thing Hancock and Bauval have been saying. Their brand of fertilizer is based on the supposed alignment of the three main giza pyramids with the belt in Orion.

They both date the pyramids to around the same time period that mainstream egyptologists do, by the way.

However, both "gentlemen" date the sphinx to 10,000 BC or so. Reader does not. Neither does Schoch.

Harte

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GrayTone

The Sphinx was a fairly common motif in Ancient Egypt, I see no reason to assume it originally resembled a lion.

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Azalin

Harte, Mako, good to see you both again !.

This theory did come out very long ago. Mako, did you ever have a chance to visit the site in question ?, I unfortunately have not. When I read of this theory a few years ago it was being debated that the " Sphinx " was created by a civilization older then that of the Egyptians, which is hinted at in this article. However, I would assume if a race besides the Egyptians made monuments such as this one, more of them would be available. I highly doubt a civilization existed hundreds of years before the Egyptians would make such a marvel of a structure, and then move on. It's much more plausible that the Egyptians themselves made it, since we already know they take a great liking, and a religious appeal to monuments. As for the water, I remember hearing a very ridiculous claim that the Sphinx was used as a " well " of sorts. To hold water and used it when necessary. I wish I could remember what text I read it from though.... <_<

God Bless, Azalin

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DigitalSentinal

Makes perfect sense to me. Lion = Leo? Age of Leo perhaps? That would indeed place it roughly 11,000 years ago. :)

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jepeto

I believe it's all related to the zodiac. We are currently in the age of the Pisces(the fish), which started around 50 bc. Each age lasts 2150 years. The previous age was that of Aries (the ram), which started around 2200 bc. There are many examples of the Ram worshiping during that period, in the exodus of the bible for instance. The age of Leo ( the lion) took place 13 050 years ago. They must have worshiped the lion at the time. Some historians now dare to put forward that the great pyramid wouldve been built in accordance to the Orion constellation as it was in the sky some 12000 years ago.. The pieces of the puzzle are being put together little by little, I believe this to be the truth.

Edited by jepeto

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Professor Buzzkill

And we are in the age of the fish??? Where are all the fish statues then??

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jepeto
And we are in the age of the fish??? Where are all the fish statues then??

That is a good question and I was expecting it coming. Well, there are some references to the fish in the bible like the miraculous fishing or some of the aspostles were fishermans before following Jesus, but I know that isn't much... Most of the ancient knowledge has been lost or merely forfeited over the last 2 millenia due mainly to the roman catholic church. The burning down of the Alexandria library may have had an impact too, and thereafter the traditions just vanished over the centuries. You can't deny the worshiping of the ram during the antiquity. Herodote speaks a lot about that.

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ravergirl
And we are in the age of the fish??? Where are all the fish statues then??

You mean like the abundance of Sea Worlds, or the christian seakittens on the back of cars, or the popularity of Koi Ponds in suburban america?

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War Eagle

Think it was Graham Hancock in his book Fingerprints of the Gods(?) who theorized that the Sphinx was originally a Jackyl/Dog in reference to either Anubis or Set(?)

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Golden Hawk

That the body and the head of the sphinx are disproportionately off is obvious. As for the head/face, one need only look at profile of Khofu and that of the minute statue of the Pharoah Cheops, to know Khufu is not the model for the Sphinx :huh: .

The carved head, as we know it is that of Cheops. ;)

The jaw line, remaing bridge of the nose, forehead, cheekbones etc do not match that of Khufu; any artist, sculpture, painter, etc can tell you that. The angles are @2-3dgrees off on the cheek bones alone. Also the head has been carved down repeatedly before the remaining portrait was left. Any further carving and there would be no head at all, just a large boulder with paws. Remember pharoahs stole each others monuments, why should the sphinx have been any different.?

Then there is the tomb of Osiris which was found in a cavern beneath the paws of the sphinx. This cavern has been cataloged as the tomb of Osiris who, many scholers believe, may have been the first pharoah and who we believe was the leader who stopped the practice of canniblism in ancient Kmt, as well as the practice of sacrificing citizens by either burying them alive with the rulers or by executing them in the tombs. The tomb is substaniated to be about 8,000-10,000 years old.

Water errosion has been proven by independent geologists who have been invited, repeatedly, to examine the sphinx compound. I am not a scientist, but even I recognize water errosion. The body of the sphinx is not multiple stones, it is one massive boulder of which the body is about 60% of the total mass. Ancient people would have used the great rock to carve a tribute to a god who played a part in their safe arrival to the Nile. As lions were plentiful in ancient times, they may well have carved a lions head after a hunt to honor the spirit of a particularly large animal that a leader may have killed.

What early settlers called themselves we may well never know. However they became known as Egyptians after unknown generations. Dynasty Zero covered an unknown number of generations, there are many leaders, chiefs, etc who ruled or who controled the delta and the lower Nile valley, and just as many who controled the Upper Nile. There are too many missing names, lost forever in time, they may well have ruled bare months, let alone years.

The sphinx is ancient beyond the pyramids. Before the desert burials, the mastabas, it was there. We cannot say who carved it originally, but they would become the ancestors of Egyptians, you might say they were the original "new kids on the block". B)

Edited by Owl_Lady

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Harte
Makes perfect sense to me. Lion = Leo? Age of Leo perhaps? That would indeed place it roughly 11,000 years ago. :)

Okay,

But Leo wasn't recognized as a constellation until the Sumerians came up with their zodiac, around 5,000 years after the date you just attributed to the age of Leo.

Also, they didn't recognize it as a lion at all. They called it the Big Dog.

BTW, the Egyptians never had a zodiac at all, until the Greeks took over Egypt after Alexander the Great's conquest (the Ptolemaic kings.)

Harte

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Harte
That the body and the head of the sphinx are disproportionately off is obvious. As for the head/face, one need only look at profile of Khofu and that of the minute statue of the Pharoah Cheops, to know Khufu is not the model for the Sphinx :huh: .

The carved head, as we know it is that of Cheops. ;)

Except, Cheops is Greek for Khufu.

They are the same Pharoah.

I think you mean Khephren.

Harte

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bee
Think it was Graham Hancock in his book Fingerprints of the Gods(?) who theorized that the Sphinx was originally a Jackyl/Dog in reference to either Anubis or Set(?)

It was Robert Temple...'The Sirius Mystery' (2nd edition) who first put this theory forward, I believe.

Okay,

But Leo wasn't recognized as a constellation until the Sumerians came up with their zodiac, around 5,000 years after the date you just attributed to the age of Leo.

Also, they didn't recognize it as a lion at all. They called it the Big Dog.

WHAT!!! I can't believe you have come out and said that......

I remember a big ding-dong we had over this a few months ago. And you were adamant that Robert Temple

was wrong...in fact I remember we locked horns because you called him ignorant...... :blink:

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Harte
It was Robert Temple...'The Sirius Mystery' (2nd edition) who first put this theory forward, I believe.

WHAT!!! I can't believe you have come out and said that......

I remember a big ding-dong we had over this a few months ago. And you were adamant that Robert Temple

was wrong...in fact I remember we locked horns because you called him ignorant...... :blink:

He is ignorant, and I don't see what Temple has to do with this.

I only brought up the Sumerian zodiac because of the stupid claim that Egyptians (or proto-Egyptians) carved the Sphinx as a lion because of Leo, which was unknown as a constellation to any proto-Egyptian tribe and to the Egyptians themselves.

Temple is ignorant, I believe, on other grounds.

You're referring, I presume, to this post of mine:

Bee,

"Speculation" is a kind description of the crap being sold at Temple's site.

You would think that any person that wanted to publish even the most untruthful line of bull about the Sphinx would at the very least take a look at the work that has been done there - especially when the work that was done was done by the scientist one intends to embellish on.

See the above bolded text from your quote? Even a cursory glance at Schoch's "Re-Dating the Great Sphinx of Giza" - the original paper he published about erosion on the Sphinx (I believe that was the title) - would show to any reader that the subsurface weathering Schoch found there is caused by exposure to air, not water!

See?:

(My emphases.)

From: Comments (on the Sphinx geology) By Robert Schoch.

Temple is an ignorant idiot. He won't even lift a finger to try and find out the facts of the matter, preferring, apparently, to make these things up as he goes along.

Not that I agree with Schoch, but even Schoch has never placed the carving of the Sphinx in the "Atlantian" era. His best guess is sometime between 4000 to 6000 BCE.

Harte

Click the link to the post to see why I called him ignorant again. It had nothing to do with the Sumerian version of Leo. It had everything to do with the fact that Temple himself shows his ignorance in his remarks about sand "insulating the limestone floor" from water action and thus forcing Schoch's dating even further back, when the truth is that Schoch's date has nothing to do with water erosion and neither sand nor water would have "insulated" the limestone from the sort of weathering that Schoch was testing for.

I believe I went off on Temple for not even bothering to try and find out what he was talking about prior to mouthing off about it.

A legitimate criticism.

Harte

Edited by Harte

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bee

He is ignorant, and I don't see what Temple has to do with this.

No he isn't..... :P

But let's no go down that road again....I don't want to pull up and quote my responses to you...(or DO I? mmmmm)

You would not have the sphinx being a dog, back then, if I remember right.

This is what you said back then....on the link you provided......

Harte said....I doubt it's Anubis. But I admit it doesn't look very leonine either.

So, I'm open to the Sphinx being something besides a lion. As far as I know, if the sphinx is not a lion, it must be older than the ancient Egyptians since it's been referred to as a lion by the earliest reference to it we have.

If the AE's thought it was a lion, and they were wrong, then it's extremely unlikely that it is Anubis because they knew Anubis and they didn't call it Anubis.

I will scrutinise the past thread a little later.....no editing, now....

The long and the short of it is, that for the most part you cleverly avoided actually saying that the Sphinx

was a dog...and of course THE most famous dog for them was Anubis...It was Temple who theorised that

the Sphinx was a DOG....and not a lion.

And you gave Temple...and me...a lot of stick over it...... :)

Edited by bee

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Harte
No he isn't..... :P

But let's no go down that road again....I don't want to pull up and quote my responses to you...(or DO I? mmmmm)

You would not have the sphinx being a dog, back then, if I remember right.

I believe you misremember.

The long and the short of it is, that for the most part you cleverly avoided actually saying that the Sphinx

was a dog...and of course THE most famous dog for them was Anubis...It was Temple who theorised that

the Sphinx was a DOG....and not a lion.

However, Anubis was not a dog at all.

The Sphinx might have been originally carved as something else, but Anubis has a human body, not a dog's body, and he has a jackal's head, not a dog's head.

Also, the Egyptians knew Anubis, yet they don't refer to the Sphinx as Anubis, as I stated in that thread from last year.

Makes the Anubis thing less likely I'd say.

It could just as easily been a camel, whose hump was later carved off by the Egyptians.

Harte

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bee

Groundhog Day.................. :w00t:

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bee
Okay,

But Leo wasn't recognized as a constellation until the Sumerians came up with their zodiac, around 5,000 years after the date you just attributed to the age of Leo.

Also, they didn't recognize it as a lion at all. They called it the Big Dog.

However, Anubis was not a dog at all.

Not everyone thinks that....

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/anubis.html

Dogs and jackals often patrolled the edges of the desert, near the cemeteries where the dead were buried, and it is thought that the first tombs were constructed to protect the dead from them. Anubis was usually thought of as a jackal (sAb), but may equally have been a wild dog (iwiw) He was usually depicted as a man with the head of a jackal and alert ears, often wearing a red ribbon, and wielding a flail. He was sometimes depicted as a jackal (such as in the beautiful examples from tutankhamuns tomb) but only rarely appears as a man (one example is in the cenotaph temple of Rameses II at Abydos). His skin or fur was generally black (not the brown associated with real jackals) because black was associated with fertility, and was closely linked to rebirth in the afterlife.

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html

Contrary to popular and some Egyptologists' opinion, Anubis was not associated with the jackal, but with the desert dog. This is based on incriptions stating that Anubis' face is "like (that of) a dog".

Although not generally accepted among Egyptologists, the name Anubis, a rendering in Greek of the ancient Egyptian , inpw, may mean "puppy" or "young dog".

These are just a couple of references linking Anubis to a dog, there are more....

Come on..! I couldn't let this window of opportunity pass by, now could I?........ :):P

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Harte
Not everyone thinks that....

http://www.ancientegyptonline.co.uk/anubis.html

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html

These are just a couple of references linking Anubis to a dog, there are more....

Come on..! I couldn't let this window of opportunity pass by, now could I?........ :):P

Ha!

At least I made you look, didn't I? :P

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