where's the proof?

[Phillee]

Phycic powers make sense to me, since I believe a lot in the spirit and such, but i have seen absolutely no proof or research backing it up. I mean, thousands of people astral project. but I don't see even hundreds of people reporting their amazing mind reading or physic-bending powers.

[John from Lowell]

There is a concept that we are on a planet of free choice. What exactly does this mean? Many of us have a hard time getting any of our desires to manifest.

There is something called the energy of intent. It is a reality context for our conscious perceptions. What if we choose this in some way based on either our conscious choice (unlikely) or by the enviorment we have birthed ourselves into, then we have created this energy of intent from that reality perception we were programmed to accept.

Now if our logical mind is dedicated to support these perceptions of reality, proof of another way of being would be very hard to find. This is kind of like why we have such convictions whenever a discussion takes place on any subject. Based on a person's experience and their conditioning (programming), they can only see one side of any given set of potentials.

Because we are on a planet of free choice, these realities are supported by our subconscious and by our divine life planner, as I see it naturally. Proof for an understand that we do not wish to have (intent) will always be very hard to find, if at all.

We always have this power of choice, however exercising that option is not at all as easy as it sounds.

Clear as mud I am sure, but that is the reason why proof is only found through the experience of something. If we have not experienced it, we are designed to reject its existance.

John

[eight bits]

If we have not experienced it, we are designed to reject its existance.

With all respect, I don't think we are designed, period.

Perosnal experience is overrated. I have never been to Japan, but I fully accept that there is such a place. Conversely, I have experienced things in meditation that I am quite sure are not literally so.

Which is not to say that what happened to me in meditation was meaningless. Rather, to arrive at the meaning is a journey which begins with the understanding that these experiences did not reflect the external real world. Only by thinking about what they reflect instead does meaning emerge.

I get as much from reading about other people's dreams here as I get from dreaming my own. In contrast, I get very little from other folks' reports about their demons, ouija boards, psi wheels, and so on.

In most cases, I have no more doubt that something happened than I have about Japan. Where the difficulty sets in is the interpretation. It is unhelpful, in my view, that so many of the reports show little or no critical faculty. If the wheel or planchette or whatever moves, then it simply must be woohookinesis. I has powerz.

No, it needn't be woohookinesis. Often enough, the alternatives are as ordinary as dirt. To point that out to the poster is generally unwelcome. Science, whatever that is, takes the rap for using the sense that God gave a goose.

At least the dream reports begin with the understanding that it was a dream. Then there is something to talk about.

Proof is easily come by. It only requires that critical reflection be added to experience. Whose experience is irrelevant.

The particular gifts mentioned by the OP are especially easy to prove, if there was something to prove. I am thinking of an integer between one million and ten million. Name it. Here is a raisin. Move it without touching it.

No BS about the constitution of the universe, of which how the hell does anyone know? 6,751,292. Say no more. One centimeter of displacement. Done.

Even simpler than in the comic books.

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

You do not see them cause you do not seek it.

To see proof is to witness psychic performance in person under a controlled condition.

If there is no control...there may be no reality to what one thinks he is witnessing.

Many so called psychics are good at distracting as a magician.

The best way is to work on developing psychic abilities yourself, rather on relying on others to be the proof you seek.

Psychic abilities are real, but like an emotion...love for example. do you think that you could sit in a lab chair and force feel that emotion, on demand, for laboratory proof?

There are simple Zenner cards you can use to practice with. I use to use a regular deck of cards.

If you shuffle them and then try to guess each card before turning them over one by one(a regular deck), your odds of getting one exactly correct is 1 in 52.

With enough time and practice you will begin to average well above average...there is your proof!

tip: never use a deck that shows any signs of wears. Every card back must be totally undistinquishable from any of the others. I use to replace my deck every week.

I hit an average of 7-8 cards every run and once hit 14.

[chaoszerg]

Psychic abilities are real, but like an emotion...love for example. do you think that you could sit in a lab chair and force feel that emotion, on demand, for laboratory proof?

How convenient.

There are people on this board who run around claiming to be able to control the elements or the weather itself, yet when it comes to proof it comes down to silly excuses or youtube vids, like youtube is supposed to be a source of proof .

What you said above is yet just another excuse.

People who make this silly bold claims about having strange powers are just as bad as the people running around claiming to be demons or werewolves able to change shape, you all fail when it comes to proving it and all rely on excuses.

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

There are silly excuses, and there are those that say "silly excuses" as a means to continue an argument, with no good thought behind it.

Psychic abilities are effected by emotion. Like it or not convient or not. It is the way it is.

I use once bench 405 pounds. But I can no longer..."how convient", "silly excuse".

Guess that can be used on anything that can not be done on demand, can it?

[chaoszerg]

Saying I can control fire or I can control the weather is a very bold claim and when asked for proof people fall back on

1: I don't have to prove anything to you

2: I cant do it when I'm watched

3: If you pay $2000 and travel expenses and food and accommodation I will fly over to your country and show you

4: I am not here to prove anything so if you don't believe me then that is up to you

5: I cant show you because I'm afraid my life will be in danger

and many more.

Bench pressing weights and controlling the elements or a object with your mind is totally different.

Again I say to you that its just silly excuses all the time and yours was one of them.

[Mattshark]

There are silly excuses, and there are those that say "silly excuses" as a means to continue an argument, with no good thought behind it.

Psychic abilities are effected by emotion. Like it or not convient or not. It is the way it is.

I use once bench 405 pounds. But I can no longer..."how convient", "silly excuse".

Guess that can be used on anything that can not be done on demand, can it?

And you can control emotion using chemicals and stimuli. Why can not one prove it exactly?

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

Saying I can control fire or I can control the weather is a very bold claim and when asked for proof people fall back on

1: I don't have to prove anything to you

2: I cant do it when I'm watched

3: If you pay $2000 and travel expenses and food and accommodation I will fly over to your country and show you

4: I am not here to prove anything so if you don't believe me then that is up to you

5: I cant show you because I'm afraid my life will be in danger

and many more.

Bench pressing weights and controlling the elements or a object with your mind is totally different.

Again I say to you that its just silly excuses all the time and yours was one of them.

If it was important for you to see in person you would get off the net and do some leg work.

NEWS FLASH FOR YOU... YOU WILL NOT GET THE PROOF YOU WANT FROM OFF A FORUM!

Your profile says you are 26, it shows. You do not wish to engage the subject intelligently, only to find cause to argue.

Edited December 14, 2008 by SOUL-DRIFTER

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

And you can control emotion using chemicals and stimuli. Why can not one prove it exactly?

Yes you can, but more of negative emotions.

PSI phenomena is very difficult to prove.

Psychic abilities are rarely reliable and seem to negatively effected by negative emotions.

Practicing with cards will work for anyone..given they do it daily and over a long period of time.

It would work for you even chaoszerg. The more doubt you have when you start...the longer it will take to get consistantly above average results.

[chaoszerg]

If it was important for you to see in person you would get off the net and do some leg work.

NEWS FLASH FOR YOU... YOU WILL NOT GET THE PROOF YOU WANT FROM OFF A FORUM!

Your profile says you are 26, it shows. You do not wish to engage the subject imtelligently, only to find cause to argue.

Ah I see, so when someone makes a bold claim and tries to make it seem it is a fact, everyone else has to run after them to see if it is real, instead of the said individual who is trying to make out that it is real from providing proof himself by showing his skill in a controlled environment and then showing us all once and for all that such amazing powers exist.

Practicing with cards will work for anyone..given they do it daily and over a long period of time.

It would work for you even chaoszerg. The more doubt you have when you start...the longer it will take to get consistantly above average results.

The card thing just seems more a game of odds and guessing than any actual psy powers, but I will give it a try for a couple of months. After a couple of months daily practising for a couple of hours I should be able to get some results hopefully.

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

Ah I see, so when someone makes a bold claim and tries to make it seem it is a fact, everyone else has to run after them to see if it is real, instead of the said individual who is trying to make out that it is real from providing proof himself by showing his skill in a controlled environment and then showing us all once and for all that such amazing powers exist.

The card thing just seems more a game of odds and guessing than any actual psy powers, but I will give it a try for a couple of months. After a couple of months daily practising for a couple of hours I should be able to get some results hopefully.

I am no longer psychic as I was 30 some years ago. It is as many talents...use it or loose it.

I have many witnesses that will, verify that I use to do the card exercise, but they can not verify my results and I didn't keep a log. The point back then was to prove it to myself as I was a doubter also.

If you use a regular deck, be sure is a clean and new. Record your results exactly. 26 are red and 26 black so the odds there are 50-50. There are 4 suits, so the odds there are 1 in 13 so on and so on.

What I did was to stare at the card on the deck and let my mind give me an image of a card(always go with first impression).

I did this exercise over a period of 4-5 years.

[Mattshark]

Yes you can, but more of negative emotions.

PSI phenomena is very difficult to prove.

Psychic abilities are rarely reliable and seem to negatively effected by negative emotions.

Practicing with cards will work for anyone..given they do it daily and over a long period of time.

It would work for you even chaoszerg. The more doubt you have when you start...the longer it will take to get consistantly above average results.

What emotions are negative exactly?

PSI is difficult to prove because there is absolutely no evidence to support it.

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

What emotions are negative exactly?

PSI is difficult to prove because there is absolutely no evidence to support it.

Anger or slightly lesser caused by doubt.

To say there is no evidence, is ludicrous. There is lots of evidence for it from many sources...do your research.

I think you are confusing evidence with accepted proof.

[Mattshark]

Anger or slightly lesser caused by doubt.

To say there is no evidence, is ludicrous. There is lots of evidence for it from many sources...do your research.

I think you are confusing evidence with accepted proof.

Why is anger negative? It is a perfectly healthy emotion. Not becoming angry is unhealthy. There is no such thing as a negative emotion.

No there is no evidence that is of a scientific standard. Claim and youtube videos are meaningless.

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

Ahhh...of scientific standard, but there is the difference. Yes you are correct. But the efforts by many Universities are still trying and getting more compelling results every time. It is only a matter of time before it becomes a proven fact generally accepted by science...and that alone will create a flood of new questions no doubt.

[Mattshark]

Ahhh...of scientific standard, but there is the difference. Yes you are correct. But the efforts by many Universities are still trying and getting more compelling results every time. It is only a matter of time before it becomes a proven fact generally accepted by science...and that alone will create a flood of new questions no doubt.

Yes the difference is the evidence has to actually be worthwhile.

Yeah right, you believe that, I'll stick to reality.

Results are really not compelling, the results show nothing. In fact the vast majority of labs gave up on it after countless failures.

Edited December 14, 2008 by Mattshark

[SOUL-DRIFTER]

Yes the difference is the evidence has to actually be worthwhile.

Yeah right, you believe that, I'll stick to reality.

Results are really not compelling, the results show nothing. In fact the vast majority of labs gave up on it after countless failures.

You speak as if you are some expert.

I have researched this subject for over 40 years, you are only 28 years old...tell me, do you proclaim to know more about this than I??

What is your background in this subject?

[eight bits]

With respect, SD. You said

But the efforts by many Universities are still trying and getting more compelling results every time.

You didn't say which universities, and gave no examples of any results, progressively more compelling or otherwise.

Matt disagreed with your unsupported claim.

Your remedy is not to discuss Matt's age. Your remedy is to produce documentation of many Universities pursuing this research with unbroken trajectories of successively more compelling results. In other words, you need to back up your disputed claim.

Then, we will be discussing the topic rather than discussing each other. I understand Management prefers it that way.

[Max.L]

You speak as if you are some expert.

I have researched this subject for over 40 years, you are only 28 years old...tell me, do you proclaim to know more about this than I??

What is your background in this subject?

*starts laughing*

Researching what? Psychic abilities that are not proven to exist?

You have researched this subject for over 40 years eh? Your profile says that you are 50 , if you had really researched this subject for over forty years , you would've have started at what age? Five? Eight?

You want to talk about who knows more? I would say Mattshark knows more about the human body and its capabilities way more than you do.

[Pauly Dangerously]

Well, I've been studying these phenomena for 80 years, and I've never seen a shred of proof of any psychic activity.

[Psikillion]

Maybe it depends on where you are looking for the proof, what books you are reading, and other research aspects that gives people different results.

Maybe psionics is true, maybe it is not. I personally have my own opinion based on my own results, from trying things out. I do read about other people describing their opinions, think of what I could believe in, test my beliefs, and then decide what to do next (continue with said belief or abandon it, either way I learn something).

I think there is some basis to what SOUL-DRIFTER is saying though I cannot be sure, I will have to try out the techniques he provided and get answers.

-Psikillion

[The Silver Thong]

You speak as if you are some expert.

I have researched this subject for over 40 years, you are only 28 years old...tell me, do you proclaim to know more about this than I??

What is your background in this subject?

This post here shows that wisdom and age have little to do with each other. There is a million dollar prize for what you claim but as most such as yourself will claim "I don't do it for the money"

[Phillee]

Before further decapitation begins,

I would like to make a statement. Wether or not what you claim is true or not, probable or improbable, you know that it did or did not happen. This forum is practically built for argument and I am gladly surprised to find little flaming. Getting back on track, however, I never said that any psycic powers are impossible. Anything is possible. We live in an infinite universe. There is no end of space and time, nor the possibilities. We are one species, all dogpiling into the information superhighway and personal experiences that runs our lives. Sometimes we have to accept that you will not always be right, and that others will prevail from time to time. I take no side in this argument. Truly, I just wanted to see some proof. Video, documentary, science or other, I wanted to be... wowed. This forum amazes me everyday. It is a wonderful, clean community with wonderful talent and experience to offer.

Before you go off skepticising, maybe give something a shot. It may become a whole new part of your life - or it may not.

I just don't want flaming to start, or arguments getting out of hand. I feel a lot of snide attitude from skeptics in this thread, but I also feel a vibe of rediculousness from the defenders.

"Grow up" is a terrible thing to say, so I won't. But be realistic. The true fault to the flaming is the beleivers, who start off the skeptics. So please. Be real. Again, I take no sides. I am not swayed to skeptic or supporter. I am just making a statement.

[xCycoxFluffyx]

Well,

The thing is, there ARE some things that are impossible. Saying nothing is impossible is setting you up for my favorite phrase: If nothing is impossible, it's impossible for something to be impossible. And if that's impossible, I rest my case. This is my first post, yes, and I figured this would be a good thread to put it on...

And I agree, with the first part of your post, that is. You are right, whatever you claim is only verifiable by you. I personally believe psychic powers are possible - I mean, come on? There is no way to disprove it. Though at the same time, there is no way to prove it. It's impossible to provide any definitive proof in an infinite universe(Vastly expanding, that is, as nothing is infinite. You cannot confirm something is infinite without viewing the entire thing, and with an infinite object, that's impossible). I suggest you don't ask for proof, but you ask for something to show that it might be possible. Video, maybe not, as videos are highly untrustworthy when it comes to these kind of things. I'm not saying you can't trust them completely, but I'm saying you want to watch out for some key things: Youtube. If it's on youtube, most likely it's fake. Grammar and spelling of the poster. Most people you can credit use it. Last, facts. If they have a good number of facts listed, I'd trust the video.

I understand how you wish to see that this may be possible, as humans, it's natural to want to learn or find some sort of proof(Yes, I said proof is impossible to exist, though this time I'm using it as something that seems good enough to trust).

Last, about skepticising, I agree! People, unless you've tried it for a good, long amount of time to show it's not possible, and you've tried nearly every method of performing something, don't try to disprove it. That's like bringing a knife to a gun fight... You won't win(In this case, disprove something or show it's possible), without a huge stroke of luck. Why do you think critics try something before criticizing?

p.s.: I wouldn't say that flaming is because of the believers. You cannot point fingers when it comes to the act of humans, for it isn't getting you anywhere. It is not just the believers, but everybody that is part of it starting flame. There is no true fault to flaming, even though it seems that the believers started it. If that's the case, wouldn't god be the cause of it all, since he supposedly created everything? I'm atheist, so I do not believe in god. But, I'm just saying, if that's the way you blame something, the very first organism, the VERY first atom was the cause of it, since it pretty much started it all. Atom as in the primeval atom, if that's how you believe the universe started.

Oh, and I wouldn't ask on the internet for any confirmations of this sort of thing. Even though it seems like the only way to find out, if somebody actually performed this, it would be all over the news. And since it hasn't been already, you probably aren't going to find anything better on the internet than nothing at all on the news. I'm not trying to get into an argument, just wanted to point a few things out >_>