where's the proof?

[Phillee]

I understand your point about the nature of the impossible.

Sure, there are things that are impossible, but that is only because we have seen no evidence of its existence. The universe has been around for around 15 billion years, and the human race for only 165,000 years. We are one race. Who is to say anything is impossible?

I do not say that everything is possible, and it is highly unlikely for some things to happen, but for the size of the universe, or, depending on your veiws, universes, almost anything can happen.

Not that it will in our lifetime. But I'll move away from the big picture. I think a big thing about any strange ability is... where did it originate from? I mean, SOMEONE had to do it to have people STILL talking about it and talking about experiences. Phsycic powers? Maybe. Astral Travel? Its almost confirmed. We cannot see what goes on in other peoples heads, but science of the brain, and the thousands of experiences told, it seems like it would be true.

[Mattshark]

I understand your point about the nature of the impossible.

Sure, there are things that are impossible, but that is only because we have seen no evidence of its existence. The universe has been around for around 15 billion years, and the human race for only 165,000 years. We are one race. Who is to say anything is impossible?

I do not say that everything is possible, and it is highly unlikely for some things to happen, but for the size of the universe, or, depending on your veiws, universes, almost anything can happen.

Not that it will in our lifetime. But I'll move away from the big picture. I think a big thing about any strange ability is... where did it originate from? I mean, SOMEONE had to do it to have people STILL talking about it and talking about experiences. Phsycic powers? Maybe. Astral Travel? Its almost confirmed. We cannot see what goes on in other peoples heads, but science of the brain, and the thousands of experiences told, it seems like it would be true.

We can measure what goes on in the brain and we know what does. None of those things are however confirmed at all. Sorry.

Anecdotes and claims are meaningless when they failed conclusive to produce results under controlled conditions.

Scepticism is healthy btw. Keeps you on your toes and the more you question things the more you can find out.

Also scepticism is good science.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Mattshark

[Phillee]

Skeptecism is a great science.

But do you think a couple thousand people got together and said, "Hey, lets bull some people with some bible readings and make people think we can go out of our bodies!"? Do you really think that its a scheme? To be specific, the brain science I spoke of was directed toaward the Beta-Alpha-Theta-Delta hertz system, which has been proved time and time again. People beleive different brain frequencies can bring to you very different states of mind.

But to the point, if claims are meaningless, might as well throw communication in the toilet. To be completely literal, if there were no claims, there would be no science. The basic building blocks of early science are based on claims, which were later scientifically analyzed and confirmed. Astral projection and other supernatural powers have yet to be scientifically confirmed. But its logical that if a great number of people have similar experiences and symtoms, theres a match of hope lit in a dark tunnel of impossibility.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Phillee

[Mattshark]

Skeptecism is a great science.

But do you think a couple thousand people got together and said, "Hey, lets bull some people with some bible readings and make people think we can go out of our bodies!"? Do you really think that its a scheme? To be specific, the brain science I spoke of was directed toaward the Beta-Alpha-Theta-Delta hertz system, which has been proved time and time again. People beleive different brain frequencies can bring to you very different states of mind.

But to the point, if claims are meaningless, might as well throw communication in the toilet. To be completely literal, if there were no claims, there would be no science. The basic building blocks of early science are based on claims, which were later scientifically analyzed and confirmed. Astral projection and other supernatural powers have yet to be scientifically confirmed. But its logical that if a great number of people have similar experiences and symtoms, theres a match of hope lit in a dark tunnel of impossibility.

No science is based on evidence, not claims.

And yes, claims are meaningless if you can not back them up. You can claim anything you like, why the hell should it be acknowledged though?

No it is not logical. There is no limit to the number of people who can be wrong, no matter how many physical laws they claim to break.

With "brain science" I was more think endocrinology and neurology.

Brain waves are results of activity not the cause and only one of those waves is associated with actual conscious thought.

Most of what the brain does is not thinking, it is making sure you actually work.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Mattshark

[Phillee]

I'm quite aware of how the brain works. Unlike some, I don't trap myself in my own beleif so densely that I don't know a bit about the brain.

I'll leave it at, you never know until you try. Its weak, its hopeless, but its pretty much the only way any believer can make a fleeting hope to the skeptics.

Okay, so you know about brainwaves. Brainwaves do stimulate our bodies, however. And with physical changes, emotional and spiritual changes come hand in hand.

If you get punched, it hurts. You may get angry.

If you affect your brainwaves by meditation, concentration, or other natural or artifical stimulants, your state of mind will change. And these changes open up oppertunities for further exploration into your own brain. And within our brains, a percentage of lucky people have found the ability to astral travel and an even fewer percentage of psycic power.

Let's say this. Even though it won't sway you.

1,000 people witness a death of a great man in a field. They rush to the inner city and report it. The city counsel deems it a joke, and passes it off. This is what most hardcore skeptics do. If the people would have taken video or pictures of the event, the counsel comes right along and investigates.

However, we can't stick a camera in our brain, now can we?

If you're so worried about science, then lay off the scientific aspect for a second. It sounds simpleton, but science can only explain so much. Theres plenty of things that science can't explain. And if all those unexplained mysteries were rejected, we'd live in a pretty strange place.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Phillee

[Mattshark]

I'm quite aware of how the brain works. Unlike some, I don't trap myself in my own beleif so densely that I don't know a bit about the brain.

I'll leave it at, you never know until you try. Its weak, its hopeless, but its pretty much the only way any believer can make a fleeting hope to the skeptics.

Okay, so you know about brainwaves. Brainwaves do stimulate our bodies, however. And with physical changes, emotional and spiritual changes come hand in hand.

If you get punched, it hurts. You may get angry.

If you affect your brainwaves by meditation, concentration, or other natural or artifical stimulants, your state of mind will change. And these changes open up oppertunities for further exploration into your own brain. And within our brains, a percentage of lucky people have found the ability to astral travel and an even fewer percentage of psycic power.

Let's say this. Even though it won't sway you.

1,000 people witness a death of a great man in a field. They rush to the inner city and report it. The city counsel deems it a joke, and passes it off. This is what most hardcore skeptics do. If the people would have taken video or pictures of the event, the counsel comes right along and investigates.

However, we can't stick a camera in our brain, now can we?

If you're so worried about science, then lay off the scientific aspect for a second. It sounds simpleton, but science can only explain so much. Theres plenty of things that science can't explain. And if all those unexplained mysteries were rejected, we'd live in a pretty strange place.

Never yet come across anything that is not explainable scientifically. Emotional changes are caused by hormones, we can simulate that. We also don't need to stick a camera in the brain, we can measure it with out doing that.

Witnessing someone being dead is not the same as trying to explain a scientific phenomena with out appropriate scientific knowledge. That is the problem.

I have never been shown anyone who has psychic powers. There is nothing in the brain for that. Sorry.

Altering you state of mind dramatically usually means you have suffered the effects of poisoning not exploration of you own brain.

[louis_last]

This post here shows that wisdom and age have little to do with each other. There is a million dollar prize for what you claim but as most such as yourself will claim "I don't do it for the money"

it's true, you meet just as many young sages as old fools.

[louis_last]

If you're so worried about science, then lay off the scientific aspect for a second. It sounds simpleton, but science can only explain so much. Theres plenty of things that science can't explain. And if all those unexplained mysteries were rejected, we'd live in a pretty strange place.

some people are no more capable of that than the hard core believers and conspiracy theorists are of not being morons. Science for some is a sort of crutch they rely on because the reality of their existence intimidates them and it helps them to feel more in control just like religion. science is just a different kind of religion, people who refuse to acknowledge that there are some things science can't explain are no different than religious zealots who refuse to acknowledge other religions as anything other than evil, they're too set in their ways.

[D1CKY D1AMOND]

some people are no more capable of that than the hard core believers and conspiracy theorists are of not being morons. Science for some is a sort of crutch they rely on because the reality of their existence intimidates them and it helps them to feel more in control just like religion. science is just a different kind of religion, people who refuse to acknowledge that there are some things science can't explain are no different than religious zealots who refuse to acknowledge other religions as anything other than evil, they're too set in their ways.

There is nothing science can't explain given enough time.

Science is a tool a tool specifically designed to figure out how things work. I won't say powers don't exist cause I can't prove it, I won't say they are real either because I simply don't know.

If I were however to make an educated guess based on observation and a bit reading etc before I replied here, I would have to say I don't think such powers exist.

It's not because I don't want them to but it does seem with all these claims of people having extraordinary powers that some would go public about their abilities for fame and money etc.... I know I would you could make millions easy if you could control fire for example or move objects with your mind.

==

Science may not be able to explain how such powers work if they exist, however it could confirm that such powers do exist.

[Insight]

Science is about asking every possible question, no matter how outlandish, and gathering as much information as possible about it in order to draw the best possible conclusion. Determining reality means considering esoteric aspects of humanity, regardless of whether or not they proves themselves to be true.

I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that there is no supernatural aspect to life. However, I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me that ANYBODY on these forums has supernatural powers.

Edited December 22, 2008 by Insight

[Mattshark]

some people are no more capable of that than the hard core believers and conspiracy theorists are of not being morons. Science for some is a sort of crutch they rely on because the reality of their existence intimidates them and it helps them to feel more in control just like religion. science is just a different kind of religion, people who refuse to acknowledge that there are some things science can't explain are no different than religious zealots who refuse to acknowledge other religions as anything other than evil, they're too set in their ways.

So what exactly is there that science can not explain exactly?

(Not saying we have all the answers, otherwise we'd have no scientists, but in the world is there that it can't possibly explain).

Edited December 23, 2008 by Mattshark

[Razer0]

What I'd like to know is why people who are so skeptic about this bother reading the "Metaphysics, Psychology & Psychic Phenomena" threads when they dont believe such ESP phenomena exists?

[eight bits]

What I'd like to know is why people who are so skeptic about this bother reading the "Metaphysics, Psychology & Psychic Phenomena" threads when they dont believe such ESP phenomena exists?

Regardless of someone's beliefs, it can be intriguing to work out an unexplained mystery.

Not evey thread in MP&P is mysterious, and the comic book powerz posts contain little that is unexplained ("but I felt something in my hand!" lol). But there are plenty of other posts, and the most interesting of them can be very interesting.

It is also enlightening to read how other people think. Scary, too, in some cases .

[louis_last]

So what exactly is there that science can not explain exactly?

(Not saying we have all the answers, otherwise we'd have no scientists, but in the world is there that it can't possibly explain).

To clarify, I'm not claiming that psychic powers exist or that there is anything which can't be explained by science, what i should have said is that there is a great deal that science has not yet explained and that no matter how far science progresses it will only ever raise more, bigger and better questions and that ultimately the human race will be long gone and there will still be an unimaginable amount that was never explained by science. In my opinion science throws up more questions than it answers. One of the most convincing Christians i know is an extremely accomplished mathematician who 'found god' through mathematics, i really just meant that the line between science and religion isn't as wide as some people think and as far as I'm concerned science is a form of worship. I really didn't mean to knock science, i love science.

[Mattshark]

To clarify, I'm not claiming that psychic powers exist or that there is anything which can't be explained by science, what i should have said is that there is a great deal that science has not yet explained and that no matter how far science progresses it will only ever raise more, bigger and better questions and that ultimately the human race will be long gone and there will still be an unimaginable amount that was never explained by science. In my opinion science throws up more questions than it answers. One of the most convincing Christians i know is an extremely accomplished mathematician who 'found god' through mathematics, i really just meant that the line between science and religion isn't as wide as some people think and as far as I'm concerned science is a form of worship. I really didn't mean to knock science, i love science.

I would disagree, the gap is bloody massive.

People find religion in all sorts of things. People find religion in toast.

If he found 'god' through mathematics I would suggest he conjectured it.

[louis_last]

I would disagree, the gap is bloody massive.

People find religion in all sorts of things. People find religion in toast.

If he found 'god' through mathematics I would suggest he conjectured it.

I'm quite sure people have also found something in toast to perform a scientific study on, i don't see how that's relevant.

If he knew you had an opinion on the matter i would suggest he probably wouldn't give a flying **** what you suggest

[Razer0]

So what exactly is there that science can not explain exactly?

(Not saying we have all the answers, otherwise we'd have no scientists, but in the world is there that it can't possibly explain).

Dark matter?

[chaoszerg]

What I'd like to know is why people who are so skeptic about this bother reading the "Metaphysics, Psychology & Psychic Phenomena" threads when they dont believe such ESP phenomena exists?

Because we have a interest and would love for this stuff to be real, Unfortunately we just keep running into role players who pretend they have powers, maybe one day though we will actually run into a genuine person.

[Insight]

If you have psychic powers, and you HAVEN'T proven them to win the million dollars, then you are an incredibly greedy and heartless person. Think of all the starving people you could feed with a million bucks.

[Mattshark]

Dark matter?

So you think a scientific hypothesis is not explorable by science?

[Mattshark]

I'm quite sure people have also found something in toast to perform a scientific study on, i don't see how that's relevant.

If he knew you had an opinion on the matter i would suggest he probably wouldn't give a flying **** what you suggest

Yes you can study anything physical. That is the purpose of science. Finding religion in toast is bugger all to with science though, it requires conjecture as does finding god in maths. That type of conjecture is bad science.