Did Noah's flood start in the Carmel ?

[UM-Bot]

A deluge that swept the Land of Israel more than 7,000 years ago, submerging six Neolithic villages opposite the Carmel Mountains, is the origin of the biblical flood of Noah, a British marine archeologist said Tuesday.

The new theory about the source of the great flood detailed in the Book of Genesis comes amid continuing controversy among scholars over whether the inundation of the Black Sea more than seven millennia ago was the biblical flood.

In the theory posited by British marine archeologist Dr. Sean Kingsley and published in the Bulletin of the Anglo-Israeli Archaeological Society, the drowning of the Carmel Mountains villages - which include houses, temples, graves, water wells, workshops and stone tools - is by far "the most compelling" archeological evidence exposed to date for Noah's flood.

Source: Jerusalem Post

[Abramelin]

If the Biblical Flood ever did happen, then I think the next article describes an event that is much more according to the Biblical account:

Towering Ancient Tsunami Devastated the Mediterranean

By Ker Than, LiveScience Staff Writer

posted: 30 November 2006 07:57 am ET

A volcano avalanche in Sicily 8,000 years ago triggered a devastating tsunami taller than a 10-story building that spread across the entire Mediterranean Sea, slamming into the shores of three continents in only a few hours [image].

A new computer simulation of the ancient event reveals for the first time the enormity of the catastrophe and its far-reaching effects.

The Mt. Etna avalanche sent 6 cubic miles of rock and sediment tumbling into the water—enough material to cover the entire island of Manhattan in a layer of debris thicker than the Empire State Building is tall.

The mountain of rubble crashed into the water at more than 200 mph. It pummeled the sea bed, transformed thick layers of soft marine sediment into jelly and triggered an underwater mudslide that flowed for hundreds of miles.

Recreating an ancient disaster

To create their computer simulation, researchers at the National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology in Italy used sonar-equipped boats to survey seafloor sediment displaced by the Mt. Etna avalanche.

Their recreation suggests the tsunami's waves reached heights of up to 130 feet and maximum speeds of up to 450 mph, making it more powerful than the Indonesian tsunami that killed more than 180,000 people in 2004.

The researchers have also linked the ancient tsunami with the mysterious abandonment of Atlit-Yam, a Neolithic village located along the coast of present-day Israel. When archeologists discovered the village about 20 years ago, they found evidence of a sudden evacuation, including a pile of fish that had been gutted and sorted but then left to rot.

"A tsunami was not suspected before," lead researcher Maria Pareschi told LiveScience.

Could happen today

According to Pareschi, if the same tsunami struck today, Southern Italy would be inundated within the first 15 minutes [image]. In one hour, the waves would reach Greece's western coasts. After an hour and a half, the city of Benghazi in Northern Africa would be hit. At the three and a half hour mark, the waves would have traversed the entire Mediterranean to reach the coasts of Israel, Lebanon and Syria.

Avalanches and minor eruptions still occur on Mt. Etna today, but so far, nothing approaching the magnitude of the ancient event.

"Should the Neolithic Etna tsunami have occurred today, the impact is tremendous because the Eastern Mediterranean coasts are very inhabited ones," Pereschi said.

http://www.livescience.com/environment/061...nt_tsunami.html

Something else: if the date, 8000 bp, is just a couple of centuries off, then this tsunami could well have triggered the breach of the Bosporus, thus creating the flooding of the ancient Black Sea area, and...making it look like a 'worldwide' flood...

[Abramelin]

The final Pre-pottery Neolithic B site of Atlit Yam in Israel dates between 6900 and 6300 BC. Today, it lies between 8-12 m beneath sea level in the Bay of Atlit at the mouth of the Oren river on the Carmel coast. It covers an area of ca. 40.000 m². Underwater excavations have uncovered rectangular houses and a well, which to date (2004) is the oldest in the world. The site was covered by the eustatic rise of sea-levels after the end of the Ice age. It is assumed that the contemporary coast-line was about 1 km west of the present coast. Piles of fish ready for trade or storage have led scientists to conclude that the village was abandoned suddenly. An Italian study conducted by a team led by Maria Pareschi of the Italian National Institute of Geophysics and Volcanology in Pisa in December 2006 indicates that a volcanic collapse of the Eastern flank of Mount Etna 8500 years ago would likely have caused a 10-story (40 m) tsunami to engulf some Mediterranean coastal cities within hours. Some scientists point to the apparent abandonment of Atlit Yam around the same time as further evidence that such a tsunami did indeed occur.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlit_Yam

[Azalin]

To the people at the time, yes, it would appear the world itself was flooded, it was their known world. However, was the entire would covered with water ?. Not within that time period, no.

God Bless, Azalin

[Abramelin]

To the people at the time, yes, it would appear the world itself was flooded, it was their known world. However, was the entire would covered with water ?. Not within that time period, no.

God Bless, Azalin

Thanks for telling me the bl**dy obvious... I was always convinced this world became a bath tub millennia ago, because we had sinned..

Edited December 15, 2008 by Abramelin

[Azalin]

Thanks for telling me the bl**dy obvious... I was always convinced this world became a bath tub around millenium ago because we had sinned..

I was not posting for the sake of speaking directly to you. Over 2 million people believe the world was.

God Bless, Azalin

[Abramelin]

OK, thanks for telling me.

But... I found out there is something very wrong about the theory of the ancient site in Israel being destroyed by a 10 story high tsunami (40 meters, like 120+ feet)...

I could not make the video in the link ( http://www.livescience.com/environment/061...nt_tsunami.html ) working, so I uploaded the accompanying pic to an imagehost :

Now look closely at the colors at the right part of the largest pic of the 4 : according to the color scale, the 'giant' wave was less than half a meter high (= less than 2 feet) when it reached the shores of the eastern Meditteranean....

EDIT: Hmmm..... I looked even more closely, and there are some yellowish strings in the pic (= more than 1 meter / some 4 feet ) that seem to reach the coast of ancient Israel. Maybe that's close to Mt. Carmel, but could that not so giant wave be responsible for a Flood myth in the entire Middle East??

Edited December 15, 2008 by Abramelin

[kobolds]

I believe the flood did happen . the earth before the flood may not has so much water as wee see now . at that time human may live at lower ground than now .

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

the key to resolve is fountains of the great deep and windows of heaven .

[Abramelin]

What do you mean, "at that time human may live at lower ground than now" ? That the earth was flat, no mountains?

Or that no one lived in the mountains or elevated areas in general??

[Harte]

So,

Because of some flood (there's one ever 100 years or so,) we are supposed to "foget" that the Israelites actually got their flood myth from the Babylonians during the Babylonian captivity of Israel?

Harte

[Abramelin]

A tsunami of 120 feet high every 100 years or so??

And from whom did the Babylonians borrow their flood myth, the story of Gilgamesh and Utanapishtim: from the Sumerians (well, that's what I have been led to believe).

And some try to argue in favor of the Black Sea event as the source of that myth.

[Lt_Ripley]

So,

Because of some flood (there's one ever 100 years or so,) we are supposed to "foget" that the Israelites actually got their flood myth from the Babylonians during the Babylonian captivity of Israel?

Harte

seems so. forget that there were no such people as Jews when the Sumerians wrote of the flood story where the biblical version written far later has more than 20 or so points in common.

[Abramelin]

Fried chicken, made in Kentucky, was around way before it was called "Kentucky Fried Chicken"..

Jews existed way before they were called that way (or called themselves 'Jews').

[Lt_Ripley]

Fried chicken, made in Kentucky, was around way before it was called "Kentucky Fried Chicken"..

Jews existed way before they were called that way (or called themselves 'Jews').

then the Sumerians would be like the ones who first thought of killing and frying the chicken so to speak.

'the jews' lived along side and inter-marrying with the Sumerians - worshiped their gods in a sense they could actually be just Sumerians really - Iraqi's . ( not unlike someone who's Grandparent moved to the US from another country. The kids may consider themselves Americans but their ethnicity is another matter. ) anyway .....they would have knowledge of the Sumerian flood myth before they went to what is now Israel and the surrounding area. So the origin of the flood story would be sumerian.

try this -

Conclusions

Not much is known about the pre-history of the “proto-Hebrews” before they are

observed in Egypt. Based on (slim) cultural and linguistic information, it can be guessed

that they originated in either northern or southern Iraq. The ancient Israelites may have

resembled the modern Kurds in appearance. We are offered the datum that they dwelled

for a time in Ur, the city of the Chaldeans. It is logical to assume that if they went from

Iraq to Egypt they may well have passed through the land known then as Canaan and now

as Israel.

The word Jew refers back the tribe of Judah, that tribe that split off from the other tribes

to form its own country. It is in some ways ironic that we refer to our selves as both Jews

and Israelites when once these meant two different things.

http://www.hvcn.org/info/jcs/docs/adultedl...klyn%20Text.pdf

on Sumeria -

http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore/world.../sumerians.aspx

Edited December 16, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[Dr. Peter Venkman]

No, it started in the Reeses. I guess tit would have to be spelled caramel for it to really be applicable. It struck me funny none the less.

[Cebrakon]

seems so. forget that there were no such people as Jews when the Sumerians wrote of the flood story where the biblical version written far later has more than 20 or so points in common.

There are great flood myths from all over the world.

Yet no great floods (capable of covering mountains)

have been observed in historical times.

Their frequency is thus likely to be less than one every 10 thousand years.

"Mythology speaks of such world calamities as a great fire

and a deluge that happened a long time ago, and myths

describing such calamities are worldwide in occurrence. In

the Philippines, there seems to be no myth about great

fires, but flood myths are quite common. In majority of the

myths, the flood occurs as a punishment for the people's

failure to fulfill their sacrificial obligations to the

gods or to observe God's laws. Other reasons or causes of

the flood are given in the myths. A Nabaloi version blames

the flood on the negligence of the woman guarding the

river. She fell asleep and wood and thrash clogged the

river and caused it to swell and overflow."

Source: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Tagalog/folktal...lk_tales_fs.htm

The various stories are not copies of one another. The details are different.

In each of them, most of the tribe is destroyed, but a few survive

in one way or another (usually magical).

IMHO, the most likely source of these myths is comet strikes in the

deep ocean, 2 or 3 miles deep in most places. A comet that completely

penetrated this depth would produce tsunamis a mile high. These would

roll right over coastal ranges or mountains. It seems

that it would take several comets to produce the floods in both the

Atlantic and the Pacific, so it could have been one very large comet

that broke up into parts.

Large landslides can also produce tsunamis capable of crossing major

oceans. Source: www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/hazards/primer/move.html

~~~Cebrakon

[Lt_Ripley]

There are great flood myths from all over the world.

Yet no great floods (capable of covering mountains)

have been observed in historical times.

Their frequency is thus likely to be less than one every 10 thousand years.

"Mythology speaks of such world calamities as a great fire

and a deluge that happened a long time ago, and myths

describing such calamities are worldwide in occurrence. In

the Philippines, there seems to be no myth about great

fires, but flood myths are quite common. In majority of the

myths, the flood occurs as a punishment for the people's

failure to fulfill their sacrificial obligations to the

gods or to observe God's laws. Other reasons or causes of

the flood are given in the myths. A Nabaloi version blames

the flood on the negligence of the woman guarding the

river. She fell asleep and wood and thrash clogged the

river and caused it to swell and overflow."

Source: http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Tagalog/folktal...lk_tales_fs.htm

The various stories are not copies of one another. The details are different.

In each of them, most of the tribe is destroyed, but a few survive

in one way or another (usually magical).

IMHO, the most likely source of these myths is comet strikes in the

deep ocean, 2 or 3 miles deep in most places. A comet that completely

penetrated this depth would produce tsunamis a mile high. These would

roll right over coastal ranges or mountains. It seems

that it would take several comets to produce the floods in both the

Atlantic and the Pacific, so it could have been one very large comet

that broke up into parts.

Large landslides can also produce tsunamis capable of crossing major

oceans. Source: www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/hazards/primer/move.html

~~~Cebrakon

every culture has it's flood myth. no doubt floods have happened , just not world wide even if it was the result of a meteor strike. Also the account written by the Sumerians which far predates the bible flood and where the people who later became known as Hebrews in fact lived in , around , with , and for all intent and purposes were in a real sense Sumerians since they too originated from Iraq/Iran would have had the Sumerian myth ingrained in them even before it was written down by Sumerians since it was an oral traditional story before that.

a tribe(s) broke itself off from the tribes living in that Sumerian area to become/call themselves what we know now as Hebrew/Jews. They weren't any different before that and would have already known the story of the flood. Their difference wasn't ethnic , but by a later choice religious.

Edited December 16, 2008 by Lt_Ripley

[Harte]

No, it started in the Reeses. I guess tit would have to be spelled caramel for it to really be applicable. It struck me funny none the less.

Venkman,

Why would you spell "tit" as caramel?

Now, "teat," "hooter," even "fun bag" I could maybe agree with, but "caramel?"

Harte

[Harte]

every culture has it's flood myth. no doubt floods have happened , just not world wide even if it was the result of a meteor strike. Also the account written by the Sumerians which far predates the bible flood and where the people who later became known as Hebrews in fact lived in , around , with , and for all intent and purposes were in a real sense Sumerians since they too originated from Iraq/Iran would have had the Sumerian myth ingrained in them even before it was written down by Sumerians since it was an oral traditional story before that.

a tribe(s) broke itself off from the tribes living in that Sumerian area to become/call themselves what we know now as Hebrew/Jews. They weren't any different before that and would have already known the story of the flood. Their difference wasn't ethnic , but by a later choice religious.

Ripley,

Nice.

Abraham, the "first Jew" if you will, was actually from the city of Ur (Ur of the Chaldees.)

Ur was a Sumerian city, which by that time was likely Babylonian:

According to one estimate, Ur was the largest city in the world from c. 2030 to 1980 BC. Its population was approximately 65,000.[5]

The third dynasty fell around 1950 BC to the Elamites; the Lament for Ur commemorates this event. Later, Babylon captured the city.

In the sixth century BC there was new construction in Ur under the rule of Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon. The last Babylonian king, Nabonidus, improved the ziggurat. However the city started to decline from around 550 BC and was no longer inhabited after about 500 BC, perhaps owing to drought, changing river patterns, and the silting of the outlet to the Persian Gulf.

There was a different Ur that some scholars claim was Abraham's birthplace, but that city is even deeper into Mesopotamia than the other Ur:

Ur Kaśdim or Ur of the Chaldees (אוּר כַּשְׂדִים) is the town in the Hebrew Bible and related literature where Abraham (origin. Abram Gen. 17.5) may have been born. The traditional site of Abraham's birth is in the vicinity of Edessa although Ur Kaśdim has been popularly identified since 1927 by Sir Charles Woolley with the Sumerian city of Ur, in southern Mesopotamia, which was under the rule of the Chaldeans — although Josephus, Islamic tradition, and Jewish authorities like Maimonides all concur that Ur Kaśdim was in Northern Mesopotamia — now southeastern Turkey (identified with Urkesh, Urartu, Urfa, and Kutha respectively).

My emphasis.

Harte

[Paracelse]

seems so. forget that there were no such people as Jews when the Sumerians wrote of the flood story where the biblical version written far later has more than 20 or so points in common.

Dang darn dang.. you took my answer dang darn dang.

[The Puzzler]

oops, wrong thread, sorry.

Edited January 4, 2009 by The Puzzler

[danielost]

I think everyone has forgotten one important part of the flood story. The rainbow. According to the story there were no rainbows before the flood.