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SoulFire

pierced kittens

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The Silver Thong
Does a child have a concept of "why" when they are abused? Consider the possibility that you don't mind as much when a person is harmed perhaps because they are not "innocent" in the way that an animal is.

So what then? What does the bolded statement mean then? You seem to be making the statement that some human mothers don't care about their young as much as some animal mothers. (this is a weird statement, as there are many animals that don't even take care of their young at all... ). Are you sure that ALL cat mothers are good mothers? Idk.. maybe. It seems that you are implying that the human ability to reason past our instincts is at the root of the "evil" we do and also the reason why you don't care as much when people are harmed as when animals are.

Thoughts? Am I even close?

The child does not have a concept of why but the parent DOES... or are you saying that we hurt our children so we should be able to hurt an animals child ?

What animals do is called nature or natural. If a hampster mother eats her young is she bad or evil for it? NO. If a human mother eats her young is it just nature or natural? NO it's evil. Are you sure you still want to continue on justifieing animal cruelty because humans are cruel to humans?

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The Silver Thong
So it's all about what the mother wants, not the harm done to the child/kitten? By that logic, if the mother dies, then is it ok for kitten piercing to take place? Is it ok, then, when a sudanese mother wants her daughter's clitoris cut off? How about when a mother thinks it's ok to beat her kid severely for touching the television?

Now your just being silly in an over the top performance. Bravo Bravo

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Neognosis
oh lord, now you've moved on to the clitoris. what is your predisposition with the removal of genitalia?

It's the most horrible thing I can think of that is done to children and most people don't care. Pierce a cat's ears.. and you go to jail though. It's illogical and emotional.

he child does not have a concept of why but the parent DOES... or are you saying that we hurt our children so we should be able to hurt an animals child ?

Of course not. I'm saying that it is interesting and illogical that people are angry at this done to a cat, yet not when done to a human baby. Or when much worse is done to a human baby. The idea that doing this to a HUMAN child is ok because their parent consents is not rational to me. Hence, the analogy of much worse things done to human children with parental consent.

Are you sure you still want to continue on justifieing animal cruelty because humans are cruel to humans?

I'm not justifying cruelty to animals. I"m pointing out that the same cruelty or worse delivered upon human children gets nary a disapproving nod, but harm a kitten in the same way, and people have an emotional response that they do not have for their own species. (because the mother of the kittens doesn't approve, but the mother of the human does? Huh?)

Now your just being silly in an over the top performance. Bravo Bravo

YOU said:

It's called choice Did the kittens mother or father have a say in the piercings of there litter? Now did the human parents have a choice as to weather there kid was going to be pierced?

I highly doubt a mother kitten would find it ok for her kittens to be hurt hence a mothers desire to protect it's young as where some human mothers could give a rats AZZ about there kids.

It sounds like your logic is: If the mother finds it ok for the child to be hurt, then it is ok. Because a mother cat would not find it ok, therefore it is not ok.

Is that your reasoning? That the choice of the mother decides whether or not the action is ok?

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ravergirl

WAAAAIIIIIIIIIT.

Piercing an ear is quite a bit different that culling off body parts...just like piercing an ear is a lot different than piercing a neck.

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Mabon

Ok, going to enter the fray.

This is one of the most disturbing things pertaining to animals that I have seen since I've joined this forum (and often there are disturbing things on here).

There is no reason except for human stupidity to do this. In some asinine way someone thought but didn't care about the suffering of these animals. They thought "I need a quick way to make a buck and dump these kittens (since they were too ignorant to get their animal fixed).

I know! *thought through in the way that only the truly vapid can do* I make them goth kitties! I'll ignore their struggles and the fact that by piercing their ears, tails and neck I could possibly damage them by missing and hitting a vein, cause a serious infection or they end up loosing their ears (other parts) because cats 1.play rough with each other 2. might rip these things out when they are hunting, climbing or doing things cats do because after all they are only dumb animals.

I am so angry at this and while I'm tempted to wish this person violence or might do it myself if I ever saw them... they are a so completely off their cracker that I in some way almost feel sorry for them. I don't know how anyone could walk through life with no empathy and be such a walking waste of oxygen.

And for the record.

Docking dogs ears and/or tail is cruelty and not necessary.

Piercing a child's ears is the parent making a decision about modifying their child without the consent of the child which is an individual and not property of the parent. What would people say if a parent had their child visibly tattooed while they were toddlers? They would question the reasoning capacity of the parents/guardians.

Puppies and kittens both feel pain just like their adult counter parts and as we humans do. The ignorant thinking in docking and with human circumcision (provided it was done as an infant) is that they are so young that it will not cause a lasting bad memory. What rubbish! You've still changed something that you don't have the right to.

This is really sickening!

I hope the person that did this goes to jail so publicly that no one else gets the bright idea to do this.

Mabon.

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Neognosis
Piercing an ear is quite a bit different that culling off body parts...just like piercing an ear is a lot different than piercing a neck.

Agreed. My point was that people get upset when a kitten's ears are pierced, but make no objection when it is done to a human baby or child, and even when worse is done to a human infant.

Now, I don't like what this guy did and clearly it is not right. But the response is emotional and not rational because it is a fluffy kitten. Cats get declawed... not many people seem to care about the cutting off of the ends of a cat's digits... how is that any different? Both are done for human vanity and greed.. one so that this guy could sell cats, and the other so people can force a cat to stay inside without worrying about their furniture...

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The Silver Thong
Agreed. My point was that people get upset when a kitten's ears are pierced, but make no objection when it is done to a human baby or child, and even when worse is done to a human infant.

Now, I don't like what this guy did and clearly it is not right. But the response is emotional and not rational because it is a fluffy kitten. Cats get declawed... not many people seem to care about the cutting off of the ends of a cat's digits... how is that any different? Both are done for human vanity and greed.. one so that this guy could sell cats, and the other so people can force a cat to stay inside without worrying about their furniture...

Man, lets try this again. I think it's just as cruel to pierce a child's ear as it is to pierce a cats. I never said any different. When I said I would shoot them in the knee ya I meant it and then I later went on to say bad parents should be shoot in the knee to.

Now why would you say that I somehow think it's ok to hurt children if the mother is not there? Humans have a thing called a social conscious that prohibits most of us from hurting people/animals period, to condon torture on any innocent is wrong. There done simple, now please don't twist this so you can make a point thats not even there to make.

Bad pet owners or bad parents I don't care, a taste of there own medicine is what I was alluding to. How you didn't get that I have no idea.

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Neognosis

I never said anything about hurting children if the mother is not there. I asked if it would be ok to hurt a child if the mother did not care, or approved.

How you didn't get that I have no idea.

because YOU said:

I

f humans want to mutilate there bodies and if society says it's ok to snip the tip of the winkie than so be it. Humans have consciously made these disicions and the animals have not. I highly doubt a mother kitten would find it ok for her kittens to be hurt hence a mothers desire to protect it's young as where some human mothers could give a rats AZZ about there kids.

I asked you to clarify. It sounds like you were drawing the line at parental consent.

I highly doubt a mother kitten would find it ok for her kittens to be hurt

f humans want to mutilate there bodies and if society says it's ok to snip the tip of the winkie than so be it.

Maybe you meant something different.

Edited by Neognosis

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The Silver Thong

I didn't say I personaly condoned the "snip snip" I said society condons it, so it has become a somewhat common practice and accepted by Society Piercing cats body parts is frowned on by society, there is the difference. I was trying to put out there, that as a whole we decide what is truley cruel and what isn't. Now for me, I personaly think piercing a cat it wrong as is piercing a small child.

I hope this clears it up at least a bit, sorry for the confusion. I don't have any other way of saying this so take it for what it is. :tu:

Cheers

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Neognosis

Hmm... indeed.

Note the adds for Purina Kitten care on this page. hahaha!

Yea, society condones ear cropping, declawing, etc. At a basic level, this guy is no better or worse than a breeder of boxers who has his puppies ears cropped, or the vet that does it.

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Barnacle Battlefront

This guy probably had no idea what he was doing, and he was piercing these cats in areas which have a lot of nerves. So I think that taking a child to a proffesional piercer, and gettign their ears done is waaaay different.

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The Silver Thong
Hmm... indeed.

Note the adds for Purina Kitten care on this page. hahaha!

Yea, society condones ear cropping, declawing, etc. At a basic level, this guy is no better or worse than a breeder of boxers who has his puppies ears cropped, or the vet that does it.

Damn I never have seen the adds for kitty food but that is funny lol

The only thing I'm not to sure about is, I do think this guy is worse in a way. A breeder as I understand will probably have a Boxer's ears cropped by a professional. From what I gather is that this was a home grown idea to make a few bucks off of pierced cats. The guy who did this was a "goth" and had probably pierced himself and others many times and though that it might be a kick to try it on his cats/kittens. Thats why I think this is a little worse. Any thoughts on how these cats received there piercings and how safe and controlled the environment this was. I think it was a drunken foolish stunt and that right there defines it for me.

You said, whats the difference between what this guy did to his cats and what a vet does to a dog. I can see a huge difference. One is a doctor and one most certainly is not.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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tigger
I think a stylish earring is ok if it doesn't really bother the animal. People dock the ears of cats and dogs. but that is horrible.

only an inbred hick would subject an animal to that kind of torture.. thank christ, or what ever higher being you support.. that ear and dail docking is illegal here in australia.

and i hope you dont own any animals..pity the poor things if you did

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Enigmatic Ghost
only an inbred hick would subject an animal to that kind of torture.. thank christ, or what ever higher being you support.. that ear and dail docking is illegal here in australia.

and i hope you dont own any animals..pity the poor things if you did

Right on Tigger

Another Fine reason that Australia Rocks, thank Gwad for a Country that stands up against animal crudity, that stands up for animal rights, Gwad I love Australia..

Pavot B)

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Still Waters

:o The poor kittens in the pic with those 'things' through their ears....it looks so cruel and freaky :angry:

I've had my ears pierced since I was about 15 years old, and had them done by a reputable jeweller. In spite of him freezing them first, it still hurt like hell at the time and were sore and tender for a week or two afterwards, so who on earth would want to do that to helpless kittens is beyond me.

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Neognosis
You said, whats the difference between what this guy did to his cats and what a vet does to a dog. I can see a huge difference. One is a doctor and one most certainly is not.

So what?

Well, what this guy did probably hurt the kitten for about 10 minutes and is a small puncture.

When a vet crops a boxers ears, the pain is infinitely worse and lasts for at least a week or two, while the ears have to be trained and taped and retaped to get them to stand up. I would certainly submit that cutting off large swaths of an animals ear is significantly more painful than putting a pin through it.

It seems that your criteria for making one thing worse is because the most drastic and more painful one is done by a vet. That is illogical to me.

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The Silver Thong
So what?

Well, what this guy did probably hurt the kitten for about 10 minutes and is a small puncture.

When a vet crops a boxers ears, the pain is infinitely worse and lasts for at least a week or two, while the ears have to be trained and taped and retaped to get them to stand up. I would certainly submit that cutting off large swaths of an animals ear is significantly more painful than putting a pin through it.

It seems that your criteria for making one thing worse is because the most drastic and more painful one is done by a vet. That is illogical to me.

Did I ever say I agreed with the docking of tails or the cropping of ears :no: I was making a comparison to a "do it at home mutilate your pet" vs have a trained proffesional do it in a sterile enviroment and were a local anethstesia can be used. I don't agree with altering your pets or your childrens appearance at all, there are just better ways of doing it than some, can we at least agree on that?

You are completely assuming that the pain for these kittens was minimal.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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Neognosis

No, you didnt' say that you agreed with ear cropping, nor did I say you did.

What you DID say was that you thought this guy piercing a kittens ears was WORSE than a vet slicing whole ribbons of a puppy's ears off.

I'm disagreeing with you, and pointing out that your idea is an emotional, not logical, response.

I'm relatively certain the pain for these kittens was minimal compared to ear cropping.

The point of all my posts in this thread, and you've helped me illustrate this, is that we illogically accept certain things, while we emotionally condemn other things. When in reality, often the things we accept are far worse than the things we condemn. The illustration here is that we too often make our decisions about right or wrong based on our emotions, which is what I believe this thread does... I wonder if the thread was about hog farmers piercing ID tags through their pig's ears, would people object? How about piercing calves ears? Because both pig and bovine babies have their ears pierced and tags placed through the ears. (most farms in the US do this.) Would people care that much for a pig or a cow?

But a kitten.... put a pin prick through a kitten's ear, and people lose their minds. But crop a pitbull or boxer's ears, and people don't mind it so much. (not YOU specifically silver thong, you've said you don't condone that.) Or put a pinprick in a child's ear.. that's ok too. I want to examine the criteria for this illogical double standard.

Thong first said it's because of the mother making the decision... I don't buy that, because it discounts the actual victim. Then with ear cropping, it was suggested that it's not as bad when a vet does it. I reject this too, because ear cropping is horrendously worse than piercing... so what if a vet does it? Would we accept a vet piercing dog and cat's ears for vanity's sake, if it was done with antiseptic?

Why will we walk past the piercing pagoda in the mall where a toddler is having a needle thrust through their ear and say nothing, but we insist that this guy get arrested? It is, after all, legal to slaughter animals and eat them... so one must assume that the life and body of a human is worth more than the body of a kitten....you see where I'm going here?

Edited by Neognosis

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The Silver Thong

Ok this is getting silly. Humans are not Vulcans so of course we are going to use emotions. To say that we need to use logic is fine but to discount emotions, can't be done. I have been inside slaughter houses, I have branded cattle, I have castrated cattle, I have killed animals for sport and food. I however have never tortured a pet or a child. If we use nothing but logic then there is no humanity. I see where your coming from but as I said emotions are not something one controls with a switch. Human nature will make us feel more for a kitten being hurt vs a pig that we will cook up and eat.

Logically humans shouldn't care how there meat gets on there table, but emotionally we don't want that animal to suffer anymore than it has to on it's journey to our gullet. Thats why we have whats called humane ways of killing animals to reduce suffering. Sticking pins through animal parts is not humane, neither would be a farmer that wants pork for dinner to go out and gut a pig alive. As said there is a right way and a wrong way and stabbing your cats ears and neck to gain a couple bucks or to get a thrill is the wrong way.

If logic was all we had to draw apon as our moral compass, we wouldn't be moral anymore would we, as all suffering would be lumped into one big basket and there would be no big deal as to who suffers more or less as we would see it as all the same. I like my emotions and if I feel more for a kitten than a tuna so be it or how about a kitten vs a bumble bee, useing logic there is no difference right.

The mother issue was an example of the human species and decission making nothing more.

Edited by The Silver Thong

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Helen of Annoy
Ok this is getting silly. Humans are not Vulcans so of course we are going to use emotions. To say that we need to use logic is fine but to discount emotions, can't be done. I have been inside slaughter houses, I have branded cattle, I have castrated cattle, I have killed animals for sport and food. I however have never tortured a pet or a child. If we use nothing but logic then there is no humanity. I see where your coming from but as I said emotions are not something one controls with a switch. Human nature will make us feel more for a kitten being hurt vs a pig that we will cook up and eat.

Logically humans shouldn't care how there meat gets on there table, but emotionally we don't want that animal to suffer anymore than it has to on it's journey to our gullet. Thats why we have whats called humane ways of killing animals to reduce suffering. Sticking pins through animal parts is not humane, neither would be a farmer that wants pork for dinner to go out and gut a pig alive. As said there is a right way and a wrong way and stabbing your cats ears and neck to gain a couple bucks or to get a thrill is the wrong way.

If logic was all we had to draw apon as our moral compass, we wouldn't be moral anymore would we, as all suffering would be lumped into one big basket and there would be no big deal as to who suffers more or less as we would see it as all the same. I like my emotions and if I feel more for a kitten than a tuna so be it or how about a kitten vs a bumble bee, useing logic there is no difference right.

The mother issue was an example of the human species and decission making nothing more.

:yes: Well said.

BTW, if you shoot that piercing maniac as it was suggested at the beginning of this thread, I volunteer to clean up the mess. And I don’t usually make such offers, you know. :D

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SoulFire

:lol: when i started this thread, i had no idea that it would be soo entertaining.

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The Silver Thong
:yes: Well said.

BTW, if you shoot that piercing maniac as it was suggested at the beginning of this thread, I volunteer to clean up the mess. And I don’t usually make such offers, you know. :D

LOL Helen I like you ;) Now what was this idiots address again :D

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Neognosis
Human nature will make us feel more for a kitten being hurt vs a pig that we will cook up and eat.

That is very illogical.

Logically humans shouldn't care how there meat gets on there table, but emotionally we don't want that animal to suffer anymore than it has to on it's journey to our gullet.

That is not true. It is to the logical benefit of society as a whole to reduce suffering, even in the animals we consume for food. Logically, a society that does not diminish the suffering of the animals under its care will not value human life as much either. We all know this on a basic level.

I submit the idea again that piercing a kitten's ear is no worse, nay, it is even not nearly as bad, as declawing.

A piercing can close up and is a pinprick. Declawing removes part of a all 10 digits and cripples the cat for life.

In our EMOTIONAL SELFISHNESS, we conveniently pretend that there is a difference, since a vet cripples the cat and it will save the leather sofa in the living room. This is why emotion is often an impediment to moral correctness, and logic should be considered in all cases.

Would a thread entitled "kitten declawed at vets office-- so family can have nice sofa" have gotten anyone upset? How convenient our emotions are...

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The Silver Thong

Humans don't rely on logic alone.

I have had declawed cats before and logically speaking it was better than being dropped off at the human society to be euthanized. Humans are vain creatures no doubt and my leather couch wasn't cheap lol. If I had claws that cost me money repeatedly, I would have them removed as well :P Speaking of which, I better cut my toe nails today lol

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SoulFire
A piercing can close up and is a pinprick. Declawing removes part of a all 10 digits and cripples the cat for life.

In our EMOTIONAL SELFISHNESS, we conveniently pretend that there is a difference, since a vet cripples the cat and it will save the leather sofa in the living room. This is why emotion is often an impediment to moral correctness, and logic should be considered in all cases.

when a cat is declawed, i know the cat doesn't understand or comprehend what/why is going on. in the grand scheme of things, it's a really good thing for the cat though. if i was a cat, i would gladly trade my claws for a life of luxurious living. since the cat has no claws, it gets to lay around the house, in the air conditioning, on the leather sofa, eating & getting it's belly rubbed. that's not a bad trade off. i don't think that compares in any way to piercing a cat. piercing a cat is just for the entertainment of the owner. it serves no REAL purpose. declawing a cat does. i have had several cats that were declawed. they were in NO WAY crippled. it would be cruel to declaw a cat and then turn it loose in nature, because it wouldn't be able to survive. a "housecat" doesn't need claws though.

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