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SoulFire

pierced kittens

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Neognosis
Someone causing cruelty to a helpless animal knows exactly what there doing and should be punished accordingly

Right... like cosmetic tail docking or ear cropping or declawing. And what should the punishment for declawing, cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping, and ear piercing be then?

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johnk81
Right... like cosmetic tail docking or ear cropping or declawing. And what should the punishment for declawing, cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping, and ear piercing be then?

Its a kitten for gods sake , human intervention is sometimes needed for the well being of an animal - Not to bloomin accessorise it!!!! its an animal not a handbag or a new hat , its this sort of thinking that makes it even worse - looking after a pet according to FASHION!!

So YES I do stand by my statement

ME

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Neognosis

I didn't say your statement wasn't valid or that you shouldn't stand by it. I asked you what the penalty should be for cosmetic tail docking, ear cropping, and ear piercing of a pet should be.

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johnk81
I didn't say your statement wasn't valid or that you shouldn't stand by it. I asked you what the penalty should be for cosmetic tail docking, ear cropping, and ear piercing of a pet should be.

Theres a fundamental difference , I dont agree with ear cropping on Dobermans or wing clipping of parrots , we are talking about putting piercings in a KITTEN! see the logic of your response first , animals in some ways need humans help when giving birth or to have things done for their quality of life , a cat only has its claws clipped because they are essentially hunters and it is done for domestication or for the comfort of the animal and these claws hurt when they get you if they are not clipped , this is minor in comparison to what this person has done so drawing a line under your argument of whats good for an animal and what is just plain psychotic is not difficult - And I reiterate if I myself saw this the person in question would definitely be having a polite word in their ear!

ME

Edited by johnk81

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Neognosis

What's the fundamental difference between slicing ribbons off a dog's ears so that they look more pleasing to a human owner, or putting a metal stud through a kitten's ear because it looks more pleasing to the owner?

The only difference is that we live in a society that conveniently and illogically says there is. And that ear cropping is infinitely more permanent and damaging. Not to mention that cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping interfere with a dog's natural ability to communicate with other dogs.

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johnk81
What's the fundamental difference between slicing ribbons off a dog's ears so that they look more pleasing to a human owner, or putting a metal stud through a kitten's ear because it looks more pleasing to the owner?

The only difference is that we live in a society that conveniently and illogically says there is. And that ear cropping is infinitely more permanent and damaging. Not to mention that cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping interfere with a dog's natural ability to communicate with other dogs.

Bolding mine;

Animals have been and always should just be companions its a win win for owner and pet going back to the days of man and wolf working together , its twisted socialites that seem to believe that painting a dog pink and carrying it in a handbag is acceptable - Which is not , society is damning of such events because they are CRUEL! , and such owners need to be put right as this is not what an animal wants , and guess what said animal cannot tell you that.

So these twisted people who get joy out of this should be held down and have their hair dyed pink and have a piercing through their nose to see what the comparison is....

Your argument is idiotic if you like I can try find the link of a shocking animal rights abuse here in the U.K where a stable owner left his horses for dead so you can adjust to see how you would feel when you see a helpless creature get trapped and abused - then you can argue the person rights after seeing what they have done.

ME

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Neognosis
a cat only has its claws clipped because they are essentially hunters and it is done for domestication or for the comfort of the animal and these claws hurt when they get you if they are not clipped , this is minor in comparison to what this person has done

You think that putting a pinprick in an animal's ear, which can be removed and will heal, is WORSE than cutting off bone at the last digit of a cat's knuckle? So that they don't claw you?

Animals don't need any help when giving birth, unless the animal has been bred down BY HUMANS to an unnatural form, like the british bulldog, which often can't whelp it's own offspring. Did we make the british bulldog into a wheezing, snorting, limping, cherry-eye prone monstrosity that often can't even birth it's own puppies for the good of the dog?

Yet the AKC not only condones, but insists on this bizarre and mutilated form be perpetuated. That's ok, but people want to shoot another human being for piercing kittens... (of course, I don't condone piercing kittens... it's just interesting how illogical and emotional response is, and how subjective and illogical our idea of animal cruelty is.)

Saw through the bone on part of a cat's digits... hey, that's fine... I mean, we can't possibly suffer the possibility of a damaged piece of furniture or be bothered to use more human methods, so that's all fine and dandy... But put a pinprick through a kitten's ear... and we're lining up to torture another human being...

Slice off part of a dog's ears... that's fine too, we like how it looks... But someone else does something far more benign and reversible... and suddenly we are all beacons of morality and outraged.... Why the double standard? Why don't you say something to your neighbor with the dog with the cropped ears? I mean, surely don't go shoot him for having it done, but do you even mention it?

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johnk81
You think that putting a pinprick in an animal's ear, which can be removed and will heal, is WORSE than cutting off bone at the last digit of a cat's knuckle? So that they don't claw you?

Animals don't need any help when giving birth, unless the animal has been bred down BY HUMANS to an unnatural form, like the british bulldog, which often can't whelp it's own offspring. Did we make the british bulldog into a wheezing, snorting, limping, cherry-eye prone monstrosity that often can't even birth it's own puppies for the good of the dog?

Yet the AKC not only condones, but insists on this bizarre and mutilated form be perpetuated. That's ok, but people want to shoot another human being for piercing kittens... (of course, I don't condone piercing kittens... it's just interesting how illogical and emotional response is, and how subjective and illogical our idea of animal cruelty is.)

Saw through the bone on part of a cat's digits... hey, that's fine... I mean, we can't possibly suffer the possibility of a damaged piece of furniture or be bothered to use more human methods, so that's all fine and dandy... But put a pinprick through a kitten's ear... and we're lining up to torture another human being...

Slice off part of a dog's ears... that's fine too, we like how it looks... But someone else does something far more benign and reversible... and suddenly we are all beacons of morality and outraged.... Why the double standard? Why don't you say something to your neighbor with the dog with the cropped ears? I mean, surely don't go shoot him for having it done, but do you even mention it?

I despise seeing dogs having tails cut thats on its spine and the fact a cat has its claws trimmed or 'clipped' is on their anatomy as a nail is to our fingers. Im my household we have a scratch post so we do not have a cats nails clipped , our oldest cat now 16 has to be sedated to have a groom as she is too old to clean herself and has trouble cleaning herself because of it , so she gets groomed which improves her quality of life - this is the fundamental difference!

But we are not talking of medical procedure but pleasing some sick persons fantasy of turning a helpless creature into an accessory! - NOT good!

ME

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Neognosis
the fact a cat has its claws trimmed or 'clipped' is on their anatomy as a nail is to our fingers.

we're not talking about clipping a cat's nails, we're talking about declawing. Do you know what declawing is? They cut off the cat's digit at the last knuckle.

http://www.de-clawing.com/

Isn't ear cropping

pleasing some sick persons fantasy of turning a helpless creature into an accessory
.

YEs it is. the only difference is one is done by "respectable people" with money in a vet's office, and the other is done by some dude.

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johnk81

De clawing then I did not know of this is cruel - and a vet is trained and knows how to better improve a pets quality of life - your not listening piercing a cats ears is WRONG! and the person doing it needs to be told so. I believe you have stumbled on this unaware of how people feel about their pets I do not know if you have any , they are and always should be companions , I state myself as an animal person not a people person , as if an animal in any way hurts someone it is for self defence - but the cruelty of an ******* doing this to a kitten is the opposite , the person is doing it for sick reasons - period

ME

Edited by johnk81

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Neognosis
De clawing then I did not know of this is cruel - and a vet is trained and knows how to better improve a pets quality of life - your not listening piercing a cats ears is WRONG!

Would it be ok if it was done by a vet then? I am listening, you aren't listening. I'm not saying piercing a cat is not wrong. I'm saying that there are so many MUCH worse things we do to our animals and nobody really cares. The same people who want to torture another human being for piercing a cat's ears are defending declawing. And I don't think that anyone here is defending ear cropping, but I've noticed that when someone posts a picture of their dog, and the dog has cropped ears, nobody seems to care. And make no mistake about it, slicing parts of a dog's ears off for cosmetic purposes is infinitely more cruel than a piercing, no matter who does it.

Double standard. Illogical double standard based on ridiculous and illogical societal mores, all because there once was a reason to crop ears (although the most prominent reason was dog fighting... ) and it's associated with class and society.

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johnk81

LOOK AT ME IM AN ATTENTION WHORE! - This dog will probably have heart issues from lack of exercise and bone and joint arthritis from being carried all day but hey she wants to look good - :wacko:

linked-image

I in no way condone any cruelty to an animal in any shape or form and I get very displeased when I see it.

ME

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Neognosis

Well, that dog is well fed, well groomed, no doubt has excellent veterinary care... there's worse things that can happen to a dog. Sure, I wouldn't subject my dogs to that, but I find it hard to get upset about a dog in a little outfit while michael vick is welcomed back onto the playing field and people are still paying vets to shred ribbons of flesh off of their dog's ears... and people think that is just fine.

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Helen of Annoy
I can see you can't talk calmly about such a topic... which is why your responses are largely emotional and might make you feel good, but I encourage you to really examine them. Torturing a human being because they pierced some kitten's ears (something humans do to their OWN CHILDREN) is not very compassionate.

Yes, I believe that visiting violence upon violent people does not end violence, but perpetuates it. Without understanding and addressing the causes and contributing factors of violent crime, we will never even reduce violent crime. I know it's not as exciting as making comments about the killing people and the price of bullets, but it is more productive and respects life.

I said I won’t be commenting in this thread anymore and you are continuing to address me? Show some manners, will you?

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!

I can't believe there are people here comparing piercing a cat's ear to declawing! Removing a cat's claws is completely barbaric and unnecessary. I have an indoors cat myself, and would never consider removing her claws; you can keep a cat off your furniture simply by teaching it to scratch and stretch elsewhere, like on a scratch mat or scratching post, so I don't see why you'd need to amputate your pet. It seriously effects the health of the cat, as it can no-longer stretch its muscles properly, so they become overweight easily, and they have no natural defenses if they happen to get outdoors by accident. Plainly, if you don't like the thought of your posessions getting a bit scratched up from time to time, then you shouldn't have a cat.

I'm not saying that what happened to those kittens is particularly nice, in fact I think it's seriously crazy to pierce a pet just for the sake of a quick sale, but it in no way compares to the suffering of declawing. I can't say how much the cats suffered from being pierced in the neck and tail, but ear piercing can't be that bad, so long as it's done by someone who knows what they're doing, of course. Wild animals get tagged in their ears all the time for identification purposes, and as far as I know, there are no specific reasons why cats are exceptions to this, so a small pin through the ear shouldn't cause any problems, and can easily be removed and left to heal if the cat finds it uncomfortable.

For people that are saying it's wrong because the cat doesn't get a choice should seriously think about all the toddlers that have their ears pierced every year; they don't get a choice in it either, but it isn't considered cruelty, is it?

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Neognosis

THANK YOU MR. MUMMY. Finally, someone gets what I've been trying to say. People can't read posts rationally if you preface them with a picture of a fluffy kitten.

FINALLY. Do you get what I've been trying to say about cultural subjectiveness?

Pierce a cat: bad

Pierce a human infant: ok

amputate part of a cat's digits: ok

shred a dog's ears: ok

HOW RIDICULOUS! And all the rationalization: it's in a vet's office, the mother says it's ok, the cat can now stay inside and be pampered... basically because our society says one barbaric and unnecessary practice is ok, but the other isn't. Be bigger than your cultural limitations and think outside them.

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!

You're welcome, Neognosis. I've seen this same debate going on at many forums over the last few days and have been majorly surprised about how outraged people are about the thought of piercing a cat's ear when in comparison to other things it's fairly insignificant.

FINALLY. Do you get what I've been trying to say about cultural subjectiveness?

Yes, personally I treat my kitty as my baby, and would only subject her to things that I would subject a child to. Obviously, I would never think about shredding a child's ear or chopping part of all their fingers off, so I would never crop an animal's ear or declaw a cat. By the same token, I don't see anything wrong with piercing a child's ear (I had my own ears pierced when I was about four or five years old), so piercing a cat's ear doesn't come across as overly cruel to me. Piercing an animal in other parts of their body is slightly different, as it could cause other health issues depending on the place of piercing. I mean, you don't see many five year old children with pierced noses and navels, so it seems a bit odd to see that sort of thing on an animal, too.

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Neognosis
I mean, you don't see many five year old children with pierced noses and navels, so it seems a bit odd to see that sort of thing on an animal, too.

Hm.. interesting.

Let's explore this a little... what would the reaction be to a 5 year old with a labret? Or an industrial ear piercing? Or a pierced eyebrow? Probably outrage and a line forming to torture by the same people who don't mind piercing their kid's ears... weird, right?

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!
Let's explore this a little... what would the reaction be to a 5 year old with a labret? Or an industrial ear piercing? Or a pierced eyebrow? Probably outrage and a line forming to torture by the same people who don't mind piercing their kid's ears... weird, right?

LOL If I saw a little kid with a labret, I would probably think it's a little strange, but I wouldn't think of it as an act of cruelty. I mean, it can be taken out and left to heal at any time, and it's not disfiguring or unhealthy in any way, so long as it's done with clean needles and by someone who knows what they're doing. Besides, when the kid is in school they probably wouldn't be able to keep it in anyway (at least, I doubt they would be allowed in the UK, where I'm from). In some cultures body piercing is an everyday part of their lives, so it wouldn't seem so strange to them. I don't think there's anything wrong with piercing an animal, so long as it wasn't harming the animal in any way, and isn't done for stupid reasons (to sell kittens, for instance).

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Neognosis

hmm... I agree. But I don't think most people would.

Myself, I think it is wrong to pierce an animal, but I maintain that it's not nearly as bad as things we do routinely and think nothing of.

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!
hmm... I agree. But I don't think most people would.

Hey, what's new? People don't generally agree with me anyway! :lol: I do think that piercing those kittens to sell them as "gothic" (is it just me, or did they look anything but gothic?!) was very uncalled for, though; surely they would've sold as they were originally anyway?! :o Though I don't personally view piercing a kitty's ear as particularly "cruel" (maybe "unnecessary" would be more of an accurate description), everyone can breath a huge sigh of relief, as I have no plans to pierce my kitty's ear. LOL :P

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tigger
when a cat is declawed, i know the cat doesn't understand or comprehend what/why is going on. in the grand scheme of things, it's a really good thing for the cat though. if i was a cat, i would gladly trade my claws for a life of luxurious living. since the cat has no claws, it gets to lay around the house, in the air conditioning, on the leather sofa, eating & getting it's belly rubbed. that's not a bad trade off. i don't think that compares in any way to piercing a cat. piercing a cat is just for the entertainment of the owner. it serves no REAL purpose. declawing a cat does. i have had several cats that were declawed. they were in NO WAY crippled. it would be cruel to declaw a cat and then turn it loose in nature, because it wouldn't be able to survive. a "housecat" doesn't need claws though.

please tell me why it is "a really good thing" when you amputate part of the cats metatarsels and metacarpels?.. if you put in into a human equation, you are amputation the last section on your finger, where the nail ben grows from.. it is an exceptionally painful experience, and the only one to gain anything from it, is the inbred who doesnt want their precious couch scratched at. it is a barbaric and utterly viciously cruel thing to do, and again.. im glad we dont do that thing here in australia.. but if you think that getting the ends of your fingers and toes hacked off is a great trade for a belly rub.. well obviously i am seriously missing some vital peice of information

cats NEED their claws, even a housecat.. it is their form of protection.. indoor cats sometimes escape. now without claws, how can they climb trees or fend off any kind of attacks?

i honestly cant fathom how someone can be so cruel.. it makes me sick.. as i've said before, pets are a privilage, not a right.. and declawing, docking and debarking is disgusting.. it is abuse in its truest form

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Neognosis

I second that, tigger.

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Crai
hmm... I agree. But I don't think most people would.

Myself, I think it is wrong to pierce an animal, but I maintain that it's not nearly as bad as things we do routinely and think nothing of.

so there's nothing wrong with cutting a dog's ears to make them 'sharper' but there's something wrong with piercing a cat?

*palmface*

i don't believe anything that the animal hasn't given consent to should be done to it unless proper for it's well-being

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Crai
please tell me why it is "a really good thing" when you amputate part of the cats metatarsels and metacarpels?.. if you put in into a human equation, you are amputation the last section on your finger, where the nail ben grows from.. it is an exceptionally painful experience, and the only one to gain anything from it, is the inbred who doesnt want their precious couch scratched at. it is a barbaric and utterly viciously cruel thing to do, and again.. im glad we dont do that thing here in australia.. but if you think that getting the ends of your fingers and toes hacked off is a great trade for a belly rub.. well obviously i am seriously missing some vital peice of information

cats NEED their claws, even a housecat.. it is their form of protection.. indoor cats sometimes escape. now without claws, how can they climb trees or fend off any kind of attacks?

i honestly cant fathom how someone can be so cruel.. it makes me sick.. as i've said before, pets are a privilage, not a right.. and declawing, docking and debarking is disgusting.. it is abuse in its truest form

I totally agree n_n

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