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SoulFire

pierced kittens

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Neognosis
so there's nothing wrong with cutting a dog's ears to make them 'sharper' but there's something wrong with piercing a cat?

Did ANYONE say that? Did you even READ my posts through this thread? You quoted me, and then attributed something the complete opposite of what my entire position has been to me.

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!
i don't believe anything that the animal hasn't given consent to should be done to it unless proper for it's well-being...

That doesn't really make any sense. Do you think a dog would give you consent to put it on a leash all the time or feed it doggy biscuits instead of raw meat, if it had the choice? Do you reckon that a cat would be happy to stay indoors 24/7 instead of being left to roam outside or be happy that you stick a bell around its neck, if you asked for its opinion? The only people that dictates whether these things are good or bad for the animal are its owners and the country that it lives in, as, unless an action does real damage to an animals health and well-being, there's no real "right" answer. For instance, in the UK you won't find too many declawed cats (I believe it's only done here for health reasons), but on the flip side, most UK cats are indoor/outdoor kitties (pedigrees tend to be the exception); the opposite is true in both cases for people living in the US. So who's "right?" In my opinion, neither are right or wrong; it's just a difference of opinion. All I would say is that I don't believe that all people living in the US can be informed properly about the full proceedure of having a cat declawed, as I seriously doubt it would happen as often...it can damage the health of the cat.

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Barnacle Battlefront

I don't think that any procedure carried out on any non-consenting being is wrong, if it is purely there to make it 'look nicer'. I have had someone suggest that I crop my puppys ears, because she is half pit bull. Needless to say I told them exactly what they could do with that suggestion. I don't overly agree with people who pierce their babies ears, but at least that is done by someone who is trained to do piercings. I doubt this guy knows what he is doing, and I would like to know how he kept the piercings free from infection.

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The Silver Thong

Ok Neognosis you win since people crop ears dock tails declaw cats I guess according to you we should be able to stab our cats at home with shafts of metel. Hear that everbody since we slaught animals for food and some animals arn't treated very well that makes it ok to torture your pets in any manner one feels in the comfort of your home. Neognosis your right this guy is a real great pet owner you have convinced me that since people hurt animals in all sorts of manners it ok to pierce your cat with metel stud. Thank you Neognosis for opening my ears now I'm off to go pierce my dogs tongue. :tu: freakin moron.

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Neognosis

I never said or even alluded to that.

What I DID say is the you have no right to "shoot" this fellow if you've declawed a cat or cropped a dog's ears. I'm pointing out the subjective double standard here.

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The Silver Thong
I never said or even alluded to that.

What I DID say is the you have no right to "shoot" this fellow if you've declawed a cat or cropped a dog's ears. I'm pointing out the subjective double standard here.

Ummm you actually think I would shoot someone? if I were to shoot people for being an idiot I would be in jail for the rest of my life. It's called an exageration, the guy is an idiot plain and simple

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Neognosis

Idk... I can't remember if you were one of those saying that they wanted to shoot this guy. My point still stands though.

Is someone who declaws their cats also an idiot?

My point is that people who do things more horrible to animals are upset with this guy. I wanted to examine the cultural double standard in light of declawing, ear cropping, and piercing infants, all of which are socially acceptable in our culture. and btw, YOU might say you were exaggerating, but at least one other person on this thread said that they were not and that they would actually like to torture this person.

Edited by Neognosis

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!
freakin moron...

Calling people a moron just because they don't agree with you doesn't really achieve anything apart from making you look stupid yourself. ;) Do you fully understand what it means to declaw a cat, Silver Thong?? Because if you do I can't see how you can compare making a pinprick to hang a small piece of jewellery to completely disfiguring an animal and leaving it unhealthy with no natural defenses! Though people may have slighty different views on both these things, they really can't be compared to each other; the two acts are nothing alike!

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The Silver Thong
Calling people a moron just because they don't agree with you doesn't really achieve anything apart from making you look stupid yourself. ;) Do you fully understand what it means to declaw a cat, Silver Thong?? Because if you do I can't see how you can compare making a pinprick to hang a small piece of jewellery to completely disfiguring an animal and leaving it unhealthy with no natural defenses! Though people may have slighty different views on both these things, they really can't be compared to each other; the two acts are nothing alike!

Did you not read the original article

Quote

"The kittens also had submission rings placed in their tails, Morrison said, explaining that the rings would prevent blood flow, causing the tails to fall off."

Yup your right completely harmless, the cats don't mind this at all :rolleyes: yup the moron comment stands.

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Neognosis

That's also how they dock puppies tails in some places here in the US. With a Vet's consent, no less.

I also never said what this guy did was right. In my book, you are therefore the moron for being unable to intellectually read and analyze a post without allowing emotion to cloud your eyes and cause you to read what you THINK is there rather than what is.

I never condoned this man's behavior in any way. I merely pointed out the double standard, of which most of the people lining up to condemn this guy are guilty of.

So tell me, is someone who declaws their cat also a moron then? I notice you condemn ear cropping, but condone declawing. Most likely because you have declawed a cat, yes? True, you probably didn't realize the extent of what you were doing, and the vet didn't explain to you, and it is of course forgivible. What is harder to overlook is that you call ME a moron, while defending declawing.... interesting.

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SoulFire
Right... like cosmetic tail docking or ear cropping or declawing. And what should the punishment for declawing, cosmetic tail docking and ear cropping, and ear piercing be then?

there shouldn't be one. those things are commonly practiced and are socially acceptable, piercing a cat is not. i can't figure what makes that soo hard to understand.

Edited by SoulFire

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Neognosis
there shouldn't be one. those things are commonly practiced and are socially acceptable, piercing a cat is not. i can't figure what makes that soo hard to understand.

I'm not misunderstanding that. What I'm pointing out is that ear cropping is infinitely more cruel than ear piercing... but it's socially acceptable. I'm pointing out the hypocricy that exists through the convenient filter of social acceptance.

Is that a dog with cropped ears in your avatar?

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The Silver Thong
I'm not misunderstanding that. What I'm pointing out is that ear cropping is infinitely more cruel than ear piercing... but it's socially acceptable. I'm pointing out the hypocricy that exists through the convenient filter of social acceptance.

Is that a dog with cropped ears in your avatar?

OK lets go back to your example of circumcision, it's socialy acceptable for a doctor or a Rabi to perform the proccedure but would you condon a father doing that to his son at home in the kitchen sink with a steak knife? That seems to be what your getting at, that this should be ok.

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Neognosis
OK lets go back to your example of circumcision, it's socialy acceptable for a doctor or a Rabi to perform the proccedure but would you condon a father doing that to his son at home in the kitchen sink with a steak knife? That seems to be what your getting at, that this should be ok.

Of course not. That's not at all what I'm getting at. Although a Rabbi is not a medical professional....

By your logic, piercing a kitten should be ok if a vet does it. Is that your position? Am I misunderatanding? Are you claiming that the lynchpin of the argument is WHO performs the cruelty? I don't think it should be socially acceptable to circumcise a baby anyway. But I also think that freedom of religious practice is more important, but I'm open to that debate.

What makes what this person did wrong? I submit that it is wrong to mutilate a pet for human convenience or fancy. The only exception being spaying and neutering. But I could be convinced that spaying and neutering are cruel too... although I'm not sure. My dogs and cats are "fixed," but I am open to debate on that one.

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hetrodoxly

Dogs have their dew-claws (nail attached to small toe at the back of foot) removed to stop them ripping the toe off when running (common in some breeds) tail docking, (my interest is terriers) a working terriers tail is used to draw the dog from an earth (hole) it's tail is likely to break if it's whole, also a fox or badger can latch onto a terriers tail when turning to leave an earth, pups are docked and dew-claws removed at 2-5 days, the tail is like a boot-lace with little feeling in it at this stage, i've taken a sleeping pup docked it's tail and placed it back with its mother without it waking.

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Neognosis

Yes, I can understand tail docking a working sporting dog's tail. Or the tail of a breed that has has the tail bred down to a fragile and injury prone appendage. (although the ethics of this are debatable in themselves...)

However, as far as your argument for working terriers (and how many working terriers are there in the whole of the US and Britian? What, maybe 1/2 of 1% of terriers are "working terriers?"

But I digress... I'm not against tail docking of a working dog or a dog who's tail is likely to be an injury liability. Nor am I necessarily against removing the dew claw.... although one of our labs still has his and has had no problems. As I understand it, the dew claw is used for cleaning and scratching the face.

But I can think of NO ethical reason for ear cropping whatsoever.

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SoulFire
I'm not misunderstanding that. What I'm pointing out is that ear cropping is infinitely more cruel than ear piercing... but it's socially acceptable. I'm pointing out the hypocricy that exists through the convenient filter of social acceptance.

Is that a dog with cropped ears in your avatar?

as a matter of fact, it is. it's a $10,000, show quality, red-nosed pitbull. it's my dog. well, was my dog. i sold him to a professional breeder. their ears are suppose to be "cropped". it's registry standard for them, as well as, dobermans, boxers and others, that i can't think of right now. i guess if anyone thought it should be standard for cats to have pierced ears, necks and tails, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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Neognosis

I agree, if a respected organization thought it should be standard for cats to have pierced ears, necks, and tails, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

That's largly my point. It's all wrong and cruel, in my opinion, but because an organization says it's manditory, we accept it by and large. Do you fight your pit bulls?

"the standard?" "supposed to be cropped?" Becasue some group says that a dog should look a certain way, we slice off large ribbons of it's ears. Insane. The only reason it's "standard" is becaues the dogs it's done to are fighting dogs, and a ripped ear in a dogfight bleeds like a b**** and doesn't heal easily.

Now, you're very first post of this thread, one which you started, has a little dissapproving and sad emoticon. But YOU yourself had a dog's ears cropped...

Do you see the hypocricy here, and the cultural filter we apply? That's what I'm trying to say. What this guy did was wrong, but what you did or had done or at the very least condone, is so much worse... but it's ok because the AKC says it's ok. The same people who insist that the english bulldog remain the dysfuncitonal mutant that many of them are....

Edited by Neognosis

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!
Did you not read the original article

Okay, I admit that I hadn't read the original article; this article has been posted all over the web over the past couple of days, which I had read, and it hadn't mentioned the seriousness of the tail piercings. So I apologise for that. Though I do stand by the fact that ear piercing is not harmful to an animal (tagging animal's ears in the wild is not considered cruel, is it?). The seriousness of a piercing - in animal or human - all depends on where it is put, so obviously some will have more side-effects than others. One thing you should know, though, Silver Thong, is that declawing a cat is cruelty, and is still far worse than the tail piercing: a cat can live a healthy normal life without a tail, but it can't without its claws.

Oh, and I still stick to my statement that calling someone a moron doesn't accomplish anything. :rolleyes:

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ravergirl
there shouldn't be one. those things are commonly practiced and are socially acceptable, piercing a cat is not. i can't figure what makes that soo hard to understand.

piercing a cat....is ok.....

stabbing a cat in the neck is not ok

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Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!
Do you fight your pit bulls?

Isn't dog-fighting against the law in the US? :huh:

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SoulFire
I agree, if a respected organization thought it should be standard for cats to have pierced ears, necks, and tails, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

That's largly my point. It's all wrong and cruel, in my opinion, but because an organization says it's manditory, we accept it by and large. Do you fight your pit bulls?

"the standard?" "supposed to be cropped?" Becasue some group says that a dog should look a certain way, we slice off large ribbons of it's ears. Insane. The only reason it's "standard" is becaues the dogs it's done to are fighting dogs, and a ripped ear in a dogfight bleeds like a b**** and doesn't heal easily.

Now, you're very first post of this thread, one which you started, has a little dissapproving and sad emoticon. But YOU yourself had a dog's ears cropped...

Do you see the hypocricy here, and the cultural filter we apply? That's what I'm trying to say. What this guy did was wrong, but what you did or had done or at the very least condone, is so much worse... but it's ok because the AKC says it's ok. The same people who insist that the english bulldog remain the dysfuncitonal mutant that many of them are....

i didn't say that I had his ears cropped, did I? and of course I DO NOT fight my dogs. why would you ask me something like that? i love dogs. actually i love ALL animals. i haven't said a single hypocritical thing in this entire (rapidly becoming rediculous) thread. the AKC says it's ok to crop a dogs ears and dock it's tail, so it's ok in my book too. the AMA says it's ok (actually good practice, to prevent infections) to circumsize infant males, so it's ok in my book too. i understand alot of your argument, but you can't change the world from the UM forums. it was stupid for that guy to pierce a cat. PERIOD. there is no two ways about it. that is what this thread was intended to discuss.

Edited by SoulFire

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SoulFire
piercing a cat....is ok.....

stabbing a cat in the neck is not ok

no, piercing a cat is stupid, IMO.

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SoulFire
Isn't dog-fighting against the law in the US? :huh:

yes, fighting dogs in the US is highly illegal. i guess i've said something along the way to make this dude think i'm a criminal :unsure: .

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Neognosis
Isn't dog-fighting against the law in the US?

Yes, but it's still done fairly commonly, especially in our southern states.

i didn't say that I had his ears cropped, did I?

No, you didn't. Which is why I said:

What this guy did was wrong, but what you did or had done or at the very least condone,

I should have also said that the first time, and for that I apologize.

and of course I DO NOT fight my dogs. why would you ask me something like that? i love dogs

Simply becuase you have a fighting breed dog with cropped ears. I didn't want to make any assumptions about you, so I thought I would ask.

i haven't said a single hypocritical thing in this entire (rapidly becoming rediculous) thread. the AKC says it's ok to crop a dogs ears and dock it's tail, so it's ok in my book too.

so then if the AKC for cats said it's ok to pierce kittens, then it would be OK in your book too? How are you going to condemn someone for doing something nearly as, if not equally bad as, what the AKC REQUIRES dog owners to do, if they want to show their dogs?

This just proves my point. society says it's ok, so it's ok? Despite the reality? Bizarre. An interesting introspection into our species mind and ability to rationalize.

And itear cropping is NOT a good practice to prevent infections. And even if it were, it is akin to removing a healthy appendix because it might become infected. (not to mention that flop ears are bred into dogs by MAN anyway...) If it was to prevent infections, they would do it on dogs with flop ears who are frequently in the water.. like labs or spaniels or other sporting dogs. But it's done primarily to fighting dogs.

i understand alot of your argument, but you can't change the world from the UM forums. it was stupid for that guy to pierce a cat. PERIOD. there is no two ways about it. that is what this thread was intended to discuss.

Yes, yes it was stupid. But logically, it is also stupid to crop a dog's ears. The AKC is not an authority on the ethics of dog treatment. IN fact, I submit that the AKC is one of the WORST things to happen to dogs through their entire history. I can elaborate if you care to hear it.

My interest was peaked when it became apparent that people who literally said they wanted to shoot this person don't see anything wrong with the mutilations they have had done to their pets, or condone by lack of condemnation or admittance.

Why on earth would you crop a pitbull or boxer's ears if they weren't a working fighting dog? Because the AKC says? F the Akc, I say.

Edited by Neognosis

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