Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
SoulFire

pierced kittens

172 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

The Silver Thong

This whole discussion is about social norms and what is accepted and what is not. Or should we completely ignor the social norms and just focus on the ill treatment of animals with out concidering what is normal and what is not. In some countries it's legal to torture people so looking at it with no social norms we can say damn if torture in this country is ok than it must be ok for everyone, of course thats ignoring what is socialy accepted. I agree that any alteration to an animal is usualy not in the animals best interest and according to logic we should ignore this and treat every animal the same given it a cat or a mouse.

This is more about what is socialy acceptable and if logic alone is what we have draw on then Neognosis is basicly right, but I can't accept logic as the only way of looking at this when there is much more involved here than simple logic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr. Mummy's Merry Maiden!

If a kennel club told me to crop my dog's ears because they thought it was acceptable, I would only do so if I thought it was acceptable, too. Sometimes you have to use your own judgement. :yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis
This is more about what is socialy acceptable and if logic alone is what we have draw on then Neognosis is basicly right, but I can't accept logic as the only way of looking at this when there is much more involved here than simple logic.

Ok, ok!

Expand on that. What else is involved here? Can we isolate why we don't like when this guy pierces a cat's ear, but we have no problem with ear cropping?

Is it because this guy is just a dude, and ear's are generally cropped by a vet? OR is it because we are not pleased with the image of a pierced cat, while some poeple think dogs look good with cropped ears? Or is it something else entirely?

Soulfire said that he doesn't mind ear cropping because the AKC says it is ok... is societal acceptance our main rudder for determining morality? This suddenly became MUCH bigger than ear cropping or kitten piercing...

What other abuses, of people or animals, do we accept because society says it is ok? What of those who do not accept what society says is "ok?" Are they advanced thinkers? Backwards? Rebels? Troublmakers? Heroes? The vanguard of a new morality? Weirdos?

Can any of these questions ever be answered objectively... we all live in a society and MUST be at least somewhat affected by that societies beliefs... I mean, I find ear cropping and declawing abhorrent, but I eat meat....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Silver Thong

I'm getting rather tiresome of this thread. The guy did more than just pierce a cats ear. I have never condoned cropping of ears and I didn't want to declaw one of my cats but the thing was wrecking my house so I had it declawed and a week later the cat was just fine, it was strictly an indoor cat and well he became the best cat I ever had. If I wouldn't have had him declawed me and my ex most likely would have returned him to the shelter.

Well we could argue about social norms all day hell all year for that matter. We can argue the social norms till the cows come home but it won't change the fact that this guy went against social norms and is now being called out on it. What do you expect people to say or do about this. Don't you have laws that protect animals where you live. If we ignored social norms and animal mutilation in all it's forms was accepted/ignored I fear it would lead to a much more disturbing planet to live on.

We are hypocritical when it comes to animals and there rights and I know it. As a whole all animals should be treated the same but that just will not happen in mine or your life time. This is a circular argument where niether side can claim a moral high ground and on that note I'm outa here.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis
If we ignored social norms and animal mutilation in all it's forms was accepted/ignored I fear it would lead to a much more disturbing planet to live on.

My point is quite the opposite. Why are there social norms that condone WORSE mutilation of an animal? Is it because the kitty is little and fluffy, and we like the look of cropped ears on a burly pitbull?

How about cropping kitten's ears? Holy crap, what an outcry that would start....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SoulFire
Yes, but it's still done fairly commonly, especially in our southern states.

yes, dog fighting is common in the southern states. that doesn't mean that everyone that lives in the south, that has a pitbull, is a dog fighter. there are functional purposes for cropping a dog's ears, that have nothing to do with dog fighting. if you have a dog for protection (which millions of people do), you want an intimidating looking dog. a dog that potentional intruders or attackers aren't going to want to mess with. a big floppy-eared puppy doesn't have the same effect. also, if you're being attacked, and your guard dog is trying to protect you, big floppy ears will work to the dogs detriment. it gives the attacker something to grab on to and a way for them to inflict pain on the dog. i would also like to add, most back-woods dog fighters in the southern states don't care enough about their dogs to crop their ears before they fight them. they don't spend the money, time &/or effort on doing that to a dog that they know is going to get ripped-up by another dog. furthermore, i've never heard of dog fighters using dobermans or boxers, but ironically, they are the most common dogs that have their ears cropped.

so then if the AKC for cats said it's ok to pierce kittens, then it would be OK in your book too? How are you going to condemn someone for doing something nearly as, if not equally bad as, what the AKC REQUIRES dog owners to do, if they want to show their dogs?

if the AKC for cats said that cats should have pierced ears, then yeah, it would be fine with me. but more importantly, if the AKC for cats said that cats should have pierced ears, then it would be commonly practiced and widely accepted and nobody would care. the guy that did this wouldn't be in trouble nor would we be having this discussion.

This just proves my point. society says it's ok, so it's ok? Despite the reality? Bizarre. An interesting introspection into our species mind and ability to rationalize.

i agree with you on this statement. it's bizarre, but that's just the way it is.

And ear cropping is NOT a good practice to prevent infections. And even if it were, it is akin to removing a healthy appendix because it might become infected. (not to mention that flop ears are bred into dogs by MAN anyway...) If it was to prevent infections, they would do it on dogs with flop ears who are frequently in the water.. like labs or spaniels or other sporting dogs. But it's done primarily to fighting dogs.

either you misread my post, or you don't understand what i'm saying. i didn't say that croppong a dog's ears has anything to do with preventing infections. i said that the AMA (american medical association) thinks that circumsizing infant males is a good practice to prevent infections. i was using that as another example of something being widely excepted socially and safe medically, being ok in my book, just like cropping, docking and declawing.

Yes, yes it was stupid. But logically, it is also stupid to crop a dog's ears. The AKC is not an authority on the ethics of dog treatment. IN fact, I submit that the AKC is one of the WORST things to happen to dogs through their entire history. I can elaborate if you care to hear it.

i disagree

My interest was peaked when it became apparent that people who literally said they wanted to shoot this person don't see anything wrong with the mutilations they have had done to their pets, or condone by lack of condemnation or admittance.

TST commented about shooting the guy in the knee. i agreed, as did a few others. i think you were the ONLY one that took it seriously. i don't think anyone would actually shoot a person over something like this. it was a comment made in jest, in an effort to show how strongly feelings are about it. while i respect your opinion, you have consistantly been "over the top" with your arguments.

the picture below is a dog of mine. she is one i have currently. she is not a show dog or a guard dog, thus, her ears aren't cropped. i love dogs, like i said before. i've had several that had cropped ears and several that haven't. it depended on their purpose. the ones with cropped ears, had cropped ears for a specific reason. there is no legitimate reason to pierce a cat, and that's what this is about.

linked-image

Edited by SoulFire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis
there are functional purposes for cropping a dog's ears, that have nothing to do with dog fighting. if you have a dog for protection (which millions of people do), you want an intimidating looking dog. a dog that potentional intruders or attackers aren't going to want to mess with. a big floppy-eared puppy doesn't have the same effect. also, if you're being attacked, and your guard dog is trying to protect you, big floppy ears will work to the dogs detriment. it gives the attacker something to grab on to and a way for them to inflict pain on the dog.

Dude, I think you're reaching for a justification. The number one breed for personal protection and security is the german shephard, and they don't crop shephard's ears. Same for police work. Wouldn't the police crop a dog's ears if they were really concerned about criminals grabbing their ears. That's just a ridiculous idea. Ear cropping was done to prevent bloody injury to a dog in a dog fight. That's it. And it stayed in fashion because of yet another horrible mismanagement of the AKC.

furthermore, i've never heard of dog fighters using dobermans or boxers, but ironically, they are the most common dogs that have their ears cropped.

boxers and dobermans used to be used for fighting quite commonly before the american bulldog and pitbull became the standard. In fact, some very prominent lines of champion fighting pits have some boxer and doberman blood in their line.. going way back before fighting was bred out of the boxer.

i said that the AMA (american medical association) thinks that circumsizing infant males is a good practice to prevent infections.

That's also not true. the AMA takes no stance on circumcision any longer. We just had a boy... I researched the crap out of this before we made our decision. In a developed country, circumcision has relatively no benefits if proper hygene is utilized and safe sex is utilized.

TST commented about shooting the guy in the knee. i agreed, as did a few others. i think you were the ONLY one that took it seriously

Did you not see the string of posts where I asked that one person if they were serious? They said they were. i asked agian, if they REALLY were serious. Again they said they were.

There is no legitimate reason to crop a healthy dog's ears.

It's even illegal in most civilized countries, except the US.

Edited by Neognosis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SoulFire
Dude, I think you're reaching for a justification. The number one breed for personal protection and security is the german shephard, and they don't crop shephard\'s ears. Same for police work. Wouldn't the police crop a dog's ears if they were really concerned about criminals grabbing their ears. That\'s just a ridiculous idea. Ear cropping was done to prevent bloody injury to a dog in a dog fight. That\'s it. And it stayed in fashion because of yet another horrible mismanagement of the AKC.

it took me all of about 30 seconds + google earlier to find that information. i meant to include the link, but i was in a hurry, i'm at work:

http://www.prodoggroomingsupplies.com/dog-...ead.php?t=12668

german sheppards ears are naturally cropped. if they had droopy floppy ears, i'm sure they would be cropped also.

linked-image

boxers and dobermans used to be used for fighting quite commonly before the american bulldog and pitbull became the standard. In fact, some very prominent lines of champion fighting pits have some boxer and doberman blood in their line.. going way back before fighting was bred out of the boxer.

well, nobody fights them anymore, so why do people continue to crop their ears?

That's also not true. the AMA takes no stance on circumcision any longer. We just had a boy... I researched the crap out of this before we made our decision. In a developed country, circumcision has relatively no benefits if proper hygene is utilized and safe sex is utilized.

i think the mayo clinic is pretty informed when it comes to medical stuff. go down to the benifits section. i've read where the american medical association said the same thing also.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/circumcision/PR00040

Did you not see the string of posts where I asked that one person if they were serious? They said they were. i asked agian, if they REALLY were serious. Again they said they were.

i think people were yankin' your chain

There is no legitimate reason to crop a healthy dog's ears.

that's your opinion. they're like buttholes, everybody has one, and some of them stink :P:P

Edited by SoulFire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ravergirl
no, piercing a cat is stupid, IMO.

I have thought about piercing my dogs ear. I really don't see a problem putting something cute in the part of an animal that gets tagged for tracking, and furthermore marine biologists stick sensors on marine mamals and sharks all the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SoulFire
I have thought about piercing my dogs ear. I really don't see a problem putting something cute in the part of an animal that gets tagged for tracking, and furthermore marine biologists stick sensors on marine mamals and sharks all the time.

so are you putting an ear ring on your dog or a tracking device? tracking devices serve a scientific purpose on animals.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Silver Thong
Ummm you actually think I would shoot someone? if I were to shoot people for being an idiot I would be in jail for the rest of my life. It's called an exageration, the guy is an idiot plain and simple

Quote

"Did you not see the string of posts where I asked that one person if they were serious? They said they were. i asked agian, if they REALLY were serious. Again they said they were.

Neognosis you must have missed this post of mine or you just wanted to ignore it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ravergirl
so are you putting an ear ring on your dog or a tracking device? tracking devices serve a scientific purpose on animals.

Earrings serve an artistic purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Silver Thong
Earrings serve an artistic purpose.

Oh boy :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ravergirl
Oh boy :o

What? they do. and besides she personally peirces my fingers every chance she gets. Besides she wanted her belly button pierced but I told her she wasn't old enough....and asked where her belly button was in the first place...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis
german sheppards ears are naturally cropped. if they had droopy floppy ears, i'm sure they would be cropped also.

But their ears are still big and could be grabbed, if your logic is that ears are cropped to keep them from being grabbed. And how many people's dogs ever actually have to attack someone to protect them...

well, nobody fights them anymore, so why do people continue to crop their ears?

Because it's in vogue. It's stylish. People like the look. In a lot of countries, it's now illegal though. Because there is no reason for it and it's barbaric.

i think the mayo clinic is pretty informed when it comes to medical stuff. go down to the benifits section. i've read where the american medical association said the same thing also.

THis is from the AMA's website:

The AMA supports the general principles of the 1999 Circumcision Policy Statement of the American Academy of Pediatrics, which reads as follows: Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.----http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/category/13585.html

And did you even read the link you sent me? IN every "pro", there's a qualifying statement. Like they say it's easier to clean, but they qualify that with the statement that it's actually not difficult to keep an uncircumcised penis clean...Decreased risk of penile cancer.. but then they say that penile cancer is very rare. Decreased risk of UTI, but then they say that UTI in the first year of life is very rare as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
lordstanley

well i always wanted a cool dog with a pierced ear, i might be strange i know. lol

that's funny about his address, oopps.

i wonder who would buy pierced kittens online?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SoulFire
Earrings serve an artistic purpose.

well why don't you pierce it's tongue & nipples too then. or how about a really cool tatoo :tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis
well why don't you pierce it's tongue & nipples too then. or how about a really cool tatoo

Or cut it's ears up on the odd chance that:

1- you'll be attacked by another person

2- The dog is there and not confined.

3- the dog is trained to defend you

4- Your attacker has the presence of mind to grab the dog's ears

5- The dog doesn't just bite the attacker anyway

Sorry soulfire, I'll quit after this one. Unless you address me directly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
SoulFire
Or cut it's ears up on the odd chance that:

1- you'll be attacked by another person

2- The dog is there and not confined.

3- the dog is trained to defend you

4- Your attacker has the presence of mind to grab the dog's ears

5- The dog doesn't just bite the attacker anyway

Sorry soulfire, I'll quit after this one. Unless you address me directly.

lol :lol: . you are relentless. did you follow the link that i provided you with earlier? i didn't make that stuff up about the guard dogs. it's posted in a forum (just like this) on the internet. you don't seem to respond to common sense, so i provided you with a link to others who have opinions about the subject as well. i feel just as confident about what those people think as i do about what you think. if you would like, i'm sure i can find others. that's just the 1st one i came across. well, i take that back. i'm sure that you know how to use google, so you can do your own searching.

when i have the time tomorrow, i will explain to you how you're wrong about several points in your last post directed at me as well. after that, we can just agree to disagree, i guess. because, like TST, i'm getting tired of arguing this with you. i might as well go outside and bang my head against a tree. you either have very strong feelings about this, or either you just get off to aggitating people. i think i know which one it is, but that's irrelevent. i respect your opinion (as i've said previously) but i will never agree with it.

Edited by SoulFire

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
hetrodoxly
Yes, I can understand tail docking a working sporting dog's tail. Or the tail of a breed that has has the tail bred down to a fragile and injury prone appendage. (although the ethics of this are debatable in themselves...)

However, as far as your argument for working terriers (and how many working terriers are there in the whole of the US and Britian? What, maybe 1/2 of 1% of terriers are "working terriers?"

But I digress... I'm not against tail docking of a working dog or a dog who's tail is likely to be an injury liability. Nor am I necessarily against removing the dew claw.... although one of our labs still has his and has had no problems. As I understand it, the dew claw is used for cleaning and scratching the face.

But I can think of NO ethical reason for ear cropping whatsoever.

In the UK only terriers intended for work can be legally docked, many years ago i was told by a vet that dew-claws are left over from when wolves needed to climb, some dogs have them on all paws some on just the front, i've had pups born with just one, Lurchers, Greyhounds (running dogs) are at most risk of ripping them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis
i didn't make that stuff up about the guard dogs. it's posted in a forum (just like this) on the internet.

Well, if it's on an internet forum....

Most of europe has outlawed ear cropping.

Here's a site that presents the history and lack of a reason today to crop:

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Bluffs/...ng_Docking.html

Are we going to play the game where we both spend an hour online collecting urls of groups that are for and against ear cropping?

Here's the American Veterinary Medical Associations stand. Let me give you a hint: they are against it.

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/dec08/081215c.asp

Most of europe has banned cropping, vermont and california are considering banning ear cropping, other countries that have banned docking and cropping: Other countries where docking is banned: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Brazil, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Norway, Scotland, Slovakia, South Africa, Sweden, Switzerland, Virgin Island, Wales.

You're never going to come up with a good reason to crop ears today... there simply isn't one for a household dog... or even a dog that works in anything but a combat sport, like dog fighting or hog or cattle catching. Just no reason.. I'm looking forward to hearing what you come up with. How many dogs are used for "detection" work where it is critical to find the source of a sound within 15 degrees? I think this is ridiculous anyway. The overwhelming majority of dogs that are cropped and docked are not working detection dogs... they are family dogs docked and cropped because the owner either likes the look or just doesn't know any better.

Edited by Neognosis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Silver Thong

Holy Hell Neognosis

Don't you get it, I agree with you !!! Cropping and docking IS WRONG plain and simple I get it, I got it on the first post. I have not been condoning this. I was defending the socially conscious as so not to overly offend people like you. I was speaking as a social group would speak given that this is not sociably acceptable behavior and should be condoned.

I'm not trying to define right and wrong for you, but what is the social aspect of this story? Unpleasant, agreed?

Why do I feel like listening to a some song by Quit Riot

Hmmmm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Neognosis

Holy Hell silverthong, i was talking to Soulfire, not you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The Silver Thong
Holy Hell silverthong, i was talking to Soulfire, not you!

Sorry man, I think Soulfire is on the same page though, he's not really condoning it but as you sometimes do, he is playing the devil's advocate so to speak.

Sorry for jumpin on ya like that ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tigger
Idk... I can't remember if you were one of those saying that they wanted to shoot this guy. My point still stands though.

Is someone who declaws their cats also an idiot?

My point is that people who do things more horrible to animals are upset with this guy. I wanted to examine the cultural double standard in light of declawing, ear cropping, and piercing infants, all of which are socially acceptable in our culture. and btw, YOU might say you were exaggerating, but at least one other person on this thread said that they were not and that they would actually like to torture this person.

yes they are.. plain and simple

Dogs have their dew-claws (nail attached to small toe at the back of foot) removed to stop them ripping the toe off when running (common in some breeds) tail docking, (my interest is terriers) a working terriers tail is used to draw the dog from an earth (hole) it's tail is likely to break if it's whole, also a fox or badger can latch onto a terriers tail when turning to leave an earth, pups are docked and dew-claws removed at 2-5 days, the tail is like a boot-lace with little feeling in it at this stage, i've taken a sleeping pup docked it's tail and placed it back with its mother without it waking.

this dew claw is not attached to bone like the dew claws on the front leg.. they are attached by skin, so it is a relatively minor surgery.. it is done, as you said, to stop tearing the dew claw off.. a very painfull thing when it is done.

the tail has a lot of sensation.. when i first worked in a surgery and the breeders requested the pups tails be docked. we made them watch and listen to the procedure, which was commonly done without aneasthesia... they would scream (the pups) and the breeders soon learnt not to have this cruel procedure done. it serves no purpose what so ever and is barbaric

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.