120 reportedly killed in Israeli strikes on

[__Kratos__]

Israeli troops mobilize as Gaza assault widens

At least 310 Palestinians killed as Israel readies more tanks, artillery

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israel widened its deadliest-ever air offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers, targeting a house next to the Hamas premier's home early Monday after pounding smuggling tunnels and government buildings, sending more tanks toward the Gaza border and approving the call-up of thousands of reserve soldiers for a possible ground invasion.

Israeli leaders said they would press ahead with the Gaza campaign, despite international criticism and enraged protests across the Arab world. Israel's foreign minister said the goal was to permanently halt the barrages of rocket fire from Gaza that have targeted civilians in growing swaths of Israel's south, but not to reoccupy the Palestinian territory.

Early Monday, Israeli aircraft bombed the Islamic University and a central government compound in Gaza City, centers of Hamas power. Witnesses saw fire and smoke at the university, counting six separate airstrikes there just after midnight.

Other targets were a guest palace used by the Hamas government and the house next to Gaza Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh's home in a refugee camp next to Gaza City. He was not home, as Hamas leaders have gone into hiding.

At first light Monday, strong winds blew black smoke from the bombed sites in Gaza City over deserted streets. The air hummed with the buzz of pilotless drones and the roar of jets, punctuated by the explosions of new airstrikes. Gaza officials counted at least 310 dead.

Hamas fired missiles deeper than ever into Israel, hitting near the Israeli port city of Ashdod, and the Islamic organization continues to command some 20,000 fighters.

Unprecedented destruction

Yet Hamas leaders were forced underground, most of the dead were from the Hamas security forces, and Israel's military intelligence chief said Hamas' ability to fire rockets had been reduced by 50 percent. Indeed, Hamas rocket fire dropped off sharply, from more than 130 on Saturday to just over 20 on Sunday.

Israel's intense bombings — some 300 air strikes since midday Saturday — wreaked unprecedented destruction in Gaza, reducing entire buildings to rubble.

More of the article here: Link

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I don't see this ending any time soon.

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

Lets put this into another perspective.

map of israel and the arab world

what's your point ? it's like France being occupied and saying but look at Europe how big it is !!! , beside why are you looking at the full half of the cup ? , lol i needed to make that joke , but yeah seriously isn't it obvious that those are steeling the land of the Palestines and people still argueing about who started it first ! , it's like if i hacked into your computer and took 100 giga byte of your hard drive so i can save my files , and every time you try to take them back , i consider it my right to defend my self by occupying a few more gigas and delete some of your valuable informations, and yet people are backing me about it ! , what a funny justice world we are liveing in

[Moon Monkey]

You know, that's exactly the arrogance that gets confused with racism.

You know exactly what you implied with that statement.

You were implying that the Gaza Strip is a slum. Do realize how arrogant that sounds?

I actually meant why would they move 'back' into Gaza after leaving in 2005 and risk the deaths of many young conscripts ?. I have been to Gaza many times and believe me there are many, many worse places than Gaza in the world. Its actually better than a lot of other non-oil rich Arab countries and certainly better than most of Africa and Asia. Don't believe the hype. Go and see. I KNOW its not a slum, do you ?

BTW I didn't pick you up on your not seeing anything other than white faces in Old Jerusalem. You were lying. You were either lying that you have actually spent time there, or you were lying about what you saw there. Either way you were lying.

BTW2 Those maps you provide are both out of date and misleading, and why stop at 1946, what about 1917, the middle ages, pre-Roman times....just because they are convenient? The West Bank does have 'areas of Israeli control' that patchwork it up but thats a security thing not a cliam of ownership. The settlements will go one day but they withdrew from Lebanon and got rocket attacks from there, they withdrew from Gaza and got rocket attacks from there...now why would they totally withdraw from the West Bank ? Currently that would be suicide.

[Moon Monkey]

what's your point ? it's like France being occupied and saying but look at Europe how big it is !!! , beside why are you looking at the full half of the cup ? , lol i needed to make that joke , but yeah seriously isn't it obvious that those are steeling the land of the Palestines and people still argueing about who started it first ! , it's like if i hacked into your computer and took 100 giga byte of your hard drive so i can save my files , and every time you try to take them back , i consider it my right to defend my self by occupying a few more gigas and delete some of your valuable informations, and yet people are backing me about it ! , what a funny justice world we are liveing in

There is a big difference, France is a country, always was a country....there is no such thing as Palestine. There was a British mandate by that name for 30 years it was partitioned by the UN, the arabs didn't like it, started a war and lost. They didn't like that so started another war and lost some more. Ever since that second loss Israel has been handing pieces they won back but for some reason Egypt and Jordan didn't want Gaza and the West Bank back. In your analogy it would be like Germany trying to give Alsace back to France since 1945 but France refusing to take it.

[Denisius]

Israel: Isis Sun of God

2009 Resolution

Global Population control one country at a time...

Who's next?

Don't you mean 'Ra' the sun god?

If I am not mistaken, Isis was the patron of magic and nature, and Ra was the god of the sun.

From what I see, this operation had to happen, sooner or later. It was long overdue now, and the government probably waited for the elections to start it.

The two main goals of the operation are, according to Olmert's speech:

* To deter Hamas and the various other terrorist groups in Gaza from commiting hostile actions (Launching Quassams, kidnapping soldiers)

* To weaken Hamas as much as possible

And to all those that blame Israel for launching the attack, you are hypocrites. Hamas itself ended the truce, with promises to start launching Quassams further and further into Israeli territory and to start kidnapping female soldiers. They've ended the truce expecting the Israeli government to be as weak willed as always, and do nothing but talk.

But they were wrong. Now that the elections are nearing, they should have expected the government to try and earn more votes, and thus start an operation such as this. And now that the operation has begun, with great success, Hamas are expecting the Israelites to return to the way things were with the truce, when they 'only' launched a few Quassams each day, and let them regroup and re-organize.

To those that blame Israel for killing civilians, well tough luck. That what happens in War, people get killed. The difference between the Israelites and the various terrorist organizations Israel battles with, is that Israel is trying to minimize the civilian casualties on both her side, and the side of the palestinians, while the terrorist groups do the exact opposite, they try to kill as many civilians on the Israeli side as possible, and even do not mind having more casualties on their side, just so they can show the world how 'cruel' Israel is. (As evident by their refusal to allow the Egyptians to treat their wounded)

[Moon Monkey]

Good analysis. Problem is this violence could affect the Israeli elections and get Bibi back in which will have repercussions for years. I still fail to understand what Hamas hope to acheive by firing rockets 'in defence of their citizens', it can only end badly for everyone.

[preacherman76]

How many people does Israel plan on killing this weekend to send their message? 300? 400? 500? 1000?

It isnt about sending a message. Its about crushing a enemy who is hell bent on your destruction.

[the-Unexpected-Soul]

hey moon monkey , i'm starting to use google to see what will i find about this subject , but i'm interested in hearing from the other side of view , can you tell me what do the Israelis want and what are they doing here ?

[preacherman76]

Palestine was never a god-forsaken wasteland. It is true that most Palestinians prefer to herd goats than to dig in the ground and therefore there were few farms, but the people living on that land were not at all unhappy with their lives.

Now, to the present situation... Hamas can't have it both ways, either they are at war with Israel and then they should not complain if they get clobbered or they ensure that there are no attacks on Israel from the land they control. They brought this upon themselves, and sadly upon the civilians they always hide behind.

Yes it was, its well documented.

[questionmark]

Yes it was, its well documented.

Source?

[preacherman76]

hey moon monkey , i'm starting to use google to see what will i find about this subject , but i'm interested in hearing from the other side of view , can you tell me what do the Israelis want and what are they doing here ?

I cant speak for him, but the question is easy enough to answer. The Israelies want to live in peace with their neighbors. The reason they are there is cause after ww2 and the slaughter of many million Jews, the League of nations decided to give them a very small peice of land known as Israel. A place where the Jews have much history. The few people that lived there at the time, the palistinians (who had no goverment, or leader what so ever) loved the jews, cause the Jews brought them work, and made that small peice of land into a small paradice. Then the surrounding nations decided they wanted to comit the next holocaust, told the palistinians to leave Israel, mounted armies on all sided, and in 6 days flat Israel destroyed those counties, and made buffer zones taking some of the surrounding counties land, to make it hard for the arabs to try again.

Then several years later, in the name of peace, Israel gave back the Gaza strip. Within 24 hours every terrorist org in the area moved in and began to launch attacks against her. Hence the reason for the situation we are seeing today.

Edited December 29, 2008 by preacherman76

[preacherman76]

Source?

Mark Twain visted Israel in 1867, here is what he had to say about the place.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

[questionmark]

hey moon monkey , i'm starting to use google to see what will i find about this subject , but i'm interested in hearing from the other side of view , can you tell me what do the Israelis want and what are they doing here ?

If you will accept mine: They are living there. Not that I consider the old Zionist dream of returning to the land of ancestors the greatest idea, nor do I approve of that Erez Israel stupidity that has been going around for a while. We are talking now almost two generations of people living in Israel as we know it now, most of these people do not have anyplace else to go so it is too late to change anything. No matter how much sable rattling happens.

The problem here is not that the Palestinians have not made their peace with that idea, it is that there are professional revolutionaries who know nothing but to arm bombs and terrorize on the one side and some hard line chauvinists on the other. If you ask the average Gazan whether he wants his grandparents homeland or a job in Israel, from my experience, over 90% will take the job.

Both sides now have to decide what they want: continue the war (which the Palestinians can only loose as they have neither the resources nor the personnel required to stop the Israelis) or start working towards normality. And the Israelis will have to decide whether the end the occupation, including the dismantling of all settlements on the West Bank or if they want to start integrating the Palestinians as Israeli citizens into Israel. There are no other solutions, and the sooner both sides see that the better.

[questionmark]

Mark Twain visted Israel in 1867, here is what he had to say about the place.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country."

You mean the guy who claimed that he could throw a nickel from one bank of the Rhine river to the next is a reliable source?

[preacherman76]

You mean the guy who claimed that he could throw a nickel from one bank of the Rhine river to the next is a reliable source?

Yea ok. Now Mark Twain was dumb? Are you a arab?

[preacherman76]

If you will accept mine: They are living there. Not that I consider the old Zionist dream of returning to the land of ancestors the greatest idea, nor do I approve of that Erez Israel stupidity that has been going around for a while. We are talking now almost two generations of people living in Israel as we know it now, most of these people do not have anyplace else to go so it is too late to change anything. No matter how much sable rattling happens.

The problem here is not that the Palestinians have not made their peace with that idea, it is that there are professional revolutionaries who know nothing but to arm bombs and terrorize on the one side and some hard line chauvinists on the other. If you ask the average Gazan whether he wants his grandparents homeland or a job in Israel, from my experience, over 90% will take the job.

Both sides now have to decide what they want: continue the war (which the Palestinians can only loose as they have neither the resources nor the personnel required to stop the Israelis) or start working towards normality. And the Israelis will have to decide whether the end the occupation, including the dismantling of all settlements on the West Bank or if they want to start integrating the Palestinians as Israeli citizens into Israel. There are no other solutions, and the sooner both sides see that the better.

Israel already knows what it wants. Look at the west bank. They are in hard core negotiations and are working hard tward peace, with people sane enough to realize its the only path that can be taken without everyone dieing. Then to the south you have the Gaza strip, run by Hama's, who has no problem telling everyone that the only peace they will accept, is the death of every Jew on the land. Israel wants to live in peace with neighbor's. Israel doesnt want to be bombed by hundreds of rockets everyday from Hamas. Thats why we are where we are right now.

[questionmark]

Yea ok. Now Mark Twain was dumb? Are you a arab?

No, but I expected that somebody who rotundity affirms that Palestine was a wasteland would not come with a poet as source, rather with something more substantial like: The Economic Growth of Palestine in the Late Ottoman Era (Abdulfattah) or The political economy of population counts in Ottoman Palestine: Nablus, circa 1850 or something substantial like that, which shows quite the contrary

And no, I am not an Arab... they would consider me an enemy though I am much against Zionism.

[questionmark]

Israel already knows what it wants. Look at the west bank. They are in hard core negotiations and are working hard tward peace, with people sane enough to realize its the only path that can be taken without everyone dieing. Then to the south you have the Gaza strip, run by Hama's, who has no problem telling everyone that the only peace they will accept, is the death of every Jew on the land. Israel wants to live in peace with neighbor's. Israel doesnt want to be bombed by hundreds of rockets everyday from Hamas. Thats why we are where we are right now.

Roight...just like they are so serious that they hardly do anything against illegal settlements...quite to the contrary: they give money to expand some. Don't give me that crap.

[Moon Monkey]

hey moon monkey , i'm starting to use google to see what will i find about this subject , but i'm interested in hearing from the other side of view , can you tell me what do the Israelis want and what are they doing here ?

Every israeli I know just wants to be left to live a normal life and that includes the many israeli-palestinians I know. It was looking good for a while mid-90's, I was working with palestinians and was in Jericho the day it was the first place turned over to Arafat. We were saying that my wifes 9 year old little sister probably wouldn't have to do conscription by the time she was 18 but she has just finished her military service. I think everyone realises now that whatever they do groups like Hamas/Hezbollah will never accept Israels existence and they might as well fight now as next year, or the year after as these groups just get stronger.

There are also plenty of nutters on the Israeli side, look at the guy who shot Rabin, I just don't associate with any. These hate the arabs just like Hamas hates the jews and the more rockets that come over the more chance these will hold the final sway in the coalition government so its a catch-22 and Hamas know exactly which buttons to press. Every rocket they fire means more israelis agree with their nutters and every israeli response means more palestinians agree with their nutters.

If Hamas are firing rockets into Israel because they won't supply them with rocket fuel, why are they not firing into Egypt too ? Let Egypt deal with them...Gaza is Egyptian.

[preacherman76]

Roight...just like they are so serious that they hardly do anything against illegal settlements...quite to the contrary: they give money to expand some. Don't give me that crap.

Hardly do anything about illegal settlements? Israels court is constantly bulldozing new settlements. Hell, they gave them the whole damn gaza strip to palistine. And this is the thanks they get.

I hope Bin does get in office, cause the "road map to peace" is nothing more than the destruction of Israel. Now instead of just getting bombed from the south, they will get bombed from everywhere.

[Corp]

WW3 round the corner...

I highly doubt anyone is going to go to war over Gaza. The surrounding countries will complain but none of them will do anything. Lebanon has too many internal problems, Egypt and Jordan are on good terms with Israel, and Syria isn't going to get into a fight alone. The fight will stay local.

Looks like Israel is going to invade Gaza, which I hope doesn't happen since it'll just make things worst IMO. Unless they can somehow hand control of it over to the government running the West Bank. Looks like everyone is condemning the air attacks, though not too surprising. Some days it seems like Israel could kill a fly and people would mourn the fly's death. However personally think Israel should start to cool it with the air raids. They already tried this tactic in Lebanon and it didn't turn out to well. Think the point has been made and unless they have a carefully thought out plan they should ease up on the air compaign. Thought sounds like they're going to be allowing food and medical supplies into Gaza, which is good news.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Corp

[preacherman76]

No, but I expected that somebody who rotundity affirms that Palestine was a wasteland would not come with a poet as source, rather with something more substantial like: The Economic Growth of Palestine in the Late Ottoman Era (Abdulfattah) or The political economy of population counts in Ottoman Palestine: Nablus, circa 1850 or something substantial like that, which shows quite the contrary

And no, I am not an Arab... they would consider me an enemy though I am much against Zionism.

So you are claiming Palistine was a functioning country? Tell me then, who was the president/dictator/prime minister/whatever of palistine before 1948? Heck name me a single goverment official. Good luck.

[preacherman76]

I highly doubt anyone is going to go to war over Gaza. The surrounding countries will complain but none of them will do anything. Lebanon has too many internal problems, Egypt and Jordan are on good terms with Israel, and Syria isn't going to get into a fight alone. The fight will stay local.

Looks like Israel is going to invade Gaza, which I hope doesn't happen since it'll just make things worst IMO. Unless they can somehow hand control of it over to the government running the West Bank. Looks like everyone is condemning the air attacks, though not too surprising. Some days it seems like Israel could kill a fly and people would mourn the fly's death. However personally think Israel should start to cool it with the air raids. They already tried this tactic in Lebanon and it didn't turn out to well. Think the point has been made and unless they have a carefully thought out plan they should ease up on the air compaign. Thought sounds like they're going to be allowing food and medical supplies into Gaza, which is good news.

I dont think this conflict is about proving a point. Its about eliminating Hamas, and I think they would be fools to stop till the job is done.

[Moon Monkey]

Roight...just like they are so serious that they hardly do anything against illegal settlements...quite to the contrary: they give money to expand some. Don't give me that crap.

Thats not strictly true Q. Every night on isreali news there is another outpost being cleared by the army. The illegal ones are usually just a couple of caravans and the next day they are up again but they are not going to be a problem when the Palestinians take over. The big ones that straddle the green line are the ones being expanded however its been agreed that these will be on the israeli side in the final agreement and the building is done there.

The deal for the West Bank was as good as done with Abbas but Hamas just put it back about 5 years and everyone involved in the peace-process knows it. Why do you think Abbas is staying in Cairo...they (Hamas) know what they are doing. Take away hope from the West Bank and get as many new recruits as possible.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Moon Monkey

[Corp]

Roight...just like they are so serious that they hardly do anything against illegal settlements...quite to the contrary: they give money to expand some. Don't give me that crap.

Well to be fair Israel has destroyed a number of their settlements, literally dragging settlers out of their homes, so they are trying. Granted they're still building in Jerusalem, which I think is stupid of them. But then at least we can clearly say that both sides are morons who don't seem to really want peace