Facts about Israel and "Palestine"

[MasterPo]

(source: http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php)

I added my own emphasis to some points. But they all are good.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

Edited January 3, 2009 by MasterPo

[MasterPo]

Also from the same site (source: http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts2.php):

For those of us who believe that the "Israeli Occupation" has been bad for the Palestinian people, these facts may change your perception. The "occupation" seems to have brought nothing but good to the Palestinians - we can only imagine how much worse they would be if Israel hadn't helped them!

1. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 42 to 44. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian male life expectancy grew from 44 to 63.

2. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 45 to 46. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian female life expectancy grew from 46 to 67.

3. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 200 per thousand to 170 per thousand. During the next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 170 per thousand to 60 per thousand.

4. During 20 years of Arab rule Palestinian crude death rate decreased from 21 per thousand to 19 per thousand. During next 20 years of Israeli rule Palestinian infant mortality rate decreased from 19 per thousand to 6 per thousand.

5. Before 1967, when Israel's rule began, only 113 hospitals had been built in the territories. By the time of 1989 Israel had helped establish more than three times that number to 387.

6. Before 1967 only 23 Mother & Child Centers had been established. After 1989 about six times as many could be found. (135)

7. Malaria, which had existed in the territories before 1967 was finally eliminated during the Israeli rule.

8. Israel also more than tripled the number of Palestinian teachers and boosted the Palestinian educational system by establishing a number of universities. Among those universities were the College of Scientists (Abu Dis) - est. 1982, the College of Social Welfare (El Bira) - est. 1979, the College of Religion (Beit Hanina) - est. 1978 and the Islamic College in Hebron- est.1971.

9. This was not the only effect Israeli rule had on the Palestinian education system and the Palestinian people. Before 1967 the percentage of illiterates on average had been 27.8% among men and among women even higher at 65.1%. By 1983 Israel had helped reduce illiteracy to only 13.5% among men and 38.9% among women.

Edited January 3, 2009 by MasterPo

[Mishari]

im sorry to tell you man your facts dont mean ****, seriously what the **** is your point in all of this? what you are trying to prove that these israeli ****ers are good or something? if it was not for US then israel wouldnt do **** and would have never become a nation of terror! so please go do some research on something else than trying to defend or whatever it is that you are trying to show about israel.

[Cradle of Fish]

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.

Don't you think it's irresponsible to invoke religion in a conflict that exists purely because of religion? Nobody would be fighting over the region if not for religion. If Christ hadn't allegedly died there then it would have fallen to the Arabs a thousand years ago and there might be a lot less tension in the world.

[MasterPo]

Don't you think it's irresponsible to invoke religion in a conflict that exists purely because of religion? Nobody would be fighting over the region if not for religion. If Christ hadn't allegedly died there then it would have fallen to the Arabs a thousand years ago and there might be a lot less tension in the world.

1 - I didn't invoke anything. I am quoting a source.

2 - It goes to basis of claim on the land. Specifically it rebukes the claim that the land has an overall special meaning to islamics. There are some special places in the land like the Dome Of The Rock (been there several times myself) but the overall geographic area of "palestine" has never been of any significance to islamics and arabs until the latter half of the 20th century.

3 - Peddle your anti-religion wares else where.

4 - Is that the best response argument you can come up with?

Edited January 3, 2009 by MasterPo

[Black Red Devil]

As an "neutral onlooker", and this might sound offensive considering the death of hundreds, including children, but its intended towards a position of neutrality for either side rather than to a feeling of disinterest, your post depicts a good picture if you are an Isreali or a sympathiser. Totally biased IMO though some points are valid.

Take the hat off (probably the helmet would be more appropriate), if you are a Palestinian or sympathiser, this recent article from a World News Correspondent, would fit better into my beliefs and also, IM neutral O, offers some valid and reasonable arguments too:

Hamas has built an arsenal of 30,000 rudimentary and homemade rockets that have killed four Israelis since 2007. So now we know the reason as to why Israel is brutally bombing and attacking Gaza.

But deep down in our collective conscience and past, we know it's more than just about Hamas' rockets. It is about Israel becoming a state after the Second World War and the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians into makeshift U.N refugee camps. It is about years of Palestinians living in humiliation and experiencing five major Israeli-Arab Wars. It's about the numerous Palestinian Uprisings, or Intifadas, and how they have tried to "shake-off" Israeli occupations. It is about a generational Nakba, or Palestinian catastrophe, in which hundreds of thousands of Palestinians for decades have experienced dispossession.

The Gaza crisis is about a punitive and fatal economic blockade initiated and maintained by Israeli Defense Forces. It is about checkpoints and how innocent Palestinian civilians have been detained, imprisoned, and accidentally shot and killed. It is also about how the U.S. sells and equips Israel with over $4 billion worth of weapons each year. As Gazans are dying, Israeli F-16's continue to drop 1000 pound bunker-busting bombs and fire U.S. made missiles. Apache attack helicopters continue their deadly swarm, some even destroying mosques. It is about the protection of illegal Jewish settlements and the control of Gazan roads, airspace, waterways, and sea lanes.

It is about cutting off electricity and water supplies to the Gaza Strip. It is about Israeli politicians not allowing medical supplies into Gaza to treat the wounded. It's about the U.S. imposing a "divide and conquer" strategy upon the Palestinians by funding certain groups and internally interfering. It is about how for years Hamas has provided food and basic services and was democratically elected in Gaza to pursue the dreams and hopes of statehood. But Hamas was not a democratic government that Washington recognized or was pleased with. Therefore, it IS about regime change. U.S. style Global Democratic Totalitarianism decides which democracies exist and which democracies are destroyed.

It's about how Israel has banned reporters from covering the atrocities being committed in Gaza. It is about how the Israeli Navy (in international waters) attacked, rammed and prevented the "Dignity" from reaching Gaza with badly needed humanitarian aid. It is about Israeli elections and political maneuvering, much like that of the U.S. It is about politicians who depend on wars and military interventions to bolster their public opinion ratings and increase their support among the far right. It's also about the U.S. rejecting an attempt by the Arab League to exercise its influence in the U.N and push through an immediate ceasefire. It's about how the U.S. and Israel, for years, has been given disproportionate power in the U.N. to fight their disproportional wars.

But at least the West, thanks to the Associated Press, knows the Israeli bombardment of Gaza is due only to Hamas and their rockets.

http://article.wn.com/view/2009/01/02/Its_..._About_Rockets/

So who is right, who is wrong? And most importantly, where from here??????

[MasterPo]

So who is right, who is wrong? And most importantly, where from here??????

I still haven't seen any evidence of thousands of arabs being pushed out of their homes and off their land in 1948 by Jews with guns.

Because it didn't happen!

Those that left in '48 and again in '67 did so voluntarily at the advise of their fellow arabs.

That fact of history can not be revised no matter what articles are written.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

I don't know why you're attacking Israel. It's the terrorists (and their supporters) who are causing all this. If it wasn't for Iran, Hamas, Hezb'allah and the PLO, Palestine would've been a civilized, modern country years ago. Now, it's just full of war, and it's all the Palestinians' fault.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Pseudo-Intellectual

[Guardsman Bass]

(source: http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php)

I added my own emphasis to some points. But they all are good.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

I didn't realize land claims continued in abstentia for nigh on 2000 years. Do you also think that the Native Americans have a more legitimate claim than the current U.S. inhabitants, the Ainu over the ethnic Japanese, and so forth?

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

Your point? Regardless of when Palestinian nationalism started, it is co-determinant with the people who were either ejected or terrorized into leaving Mandatory Palestine in 1948.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

You mean that small population that lived in Jerusalem after the 79 C.E. crackdown? That hardly qualifies as a massive land claim.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

Yet the actual people - Arabs - lived continuously in that area for the whole period.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

Who cares? This is all predicated on Jewish nationalists have a claim to Jerusalem based on partially mythologized religious history (which, interestingly enough, says that they conquered from the prior inhabitants. Don't the Canaanites have a superior claim?).

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.

Irrelevant to the question of Palestinian nationalism, since it is not predicated on Islam (in fact, there are a number of Palestinians who are christian, or secular).

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

Irrelevant.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

This is a load of horse****, as the historian Benny Morris points out. What really happened was that it was a combination of appeals by local leaders to flee to safety, violence by Zionist militias (including incidents like the one at Deir Yassin), and more importantly the threat of that violence that drove people out.

The latter is especially important because we see it in other population transfer incidents, like what happened back when India became an independent country and Pakistan seceded. India didn't go on to massacre muslims, but the threat of it - and the threat to Hindus in what is now Pakistan - was enough to cause a major movement in population.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

Your point? All this shows is that the idea of incorporating Right of Return into any peace negotiations is ridiculous - it was a population transfer, with most of the actual people involved now dead or dying. These things are brutal, but they happen throughout all of history.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

That's because the Israelis offered citizenship to any Jew that showed up within their borders, whereas most of the surrounding Arab states offered sanctuary but generally viewed the Palestinians as a major nuisance. I fail to see the relevance to Palestinian nationalism.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

The Arabs actually initiated two of the three major wars: The 1973 Yom Kippur War (although considering that Israel was occupying the Sinai, I don't blame the Egyptians), and the 1948 War (which was more of an all-around fracas). Israel actually started the 1967 War, although they felt under pressure - which didn't stop them from seizing what they considered to be the rest of Greater Israel, as well as a part of Egypt (the Sinai peninsula, which they promptly started building settlements on).

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

bull. Israel has the West Bank carved up into various checkpoints, controls the water supplies, and can jump in and make arrests at any time. They also blatantly allow for illegal settlements, even allocating money for new housing in settlement areas while negotiating peace. That's not "autonomy"; that's giving the Palestinians what they already have, and expecting them to be grateful for it and stop complaining.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

What the **** does Jordan matter with regards to this debate?

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

So? I fail to see how this is relevant to the Palestine issue.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Saying something is "bull" or using curse words does not mean you're right.

[Cradle of Fish]

1 - I didn't invoke anything. I am quoting a source.

2 - It goes to basis of claim on the land. Specifically it rebukes the claim that the land has an overall special meaning to islamics. There are some special places in the land like the Dome Of The Rock (been there several times myself) but the overall geographic area of "palestine" has never been of any significance to islamics and arabs until the latter half of the 20th century.

3 - Peddle your anti-religion wares else where.

4 - Is that the best response argument you can come up with?

1.Why would you quote it if you didn't want to invoke it?

2. The Vatican does not appear in the Bible, so if some pagan clan dating back to the 1st century BC lays claim to it with a 'religious' document, we should just give it to them? What about unspoken religious tradition? Is that ignored because it wasn't put down in convenient paper form? I understand the region was a British Mandate, and it's their right to give the land to whomever they like

3. But it's an irrefutable fact. As far as we know there aren't great oceans of oil or piles of gold or uranium buried beneath the region. If the Christians didn't think the land was holy it would have fallen to the Muslims a thousand years ago. If the Jews didn't think the land was holy, they wouldn't have wanted it for their new found nation of Israel. If the Muslims didn't think the land was holy they might not have attempted to capture it in the first place, or worried when it was given to the Jews. The set backs to the peace process have been religiously based. Don't you think it's time we moved on and tried a little rationality?

4. I'm not arguing, I'm just protesting the use of religion to back up a problem caused and prolonged by religion. I don't pick sides in petty conflicts like this.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Petty? Ha!

The Israeli-Arab conflict is very well capable of causing WW3, so don't call it "petty".

[Leonardo]

(source: http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php)

I added my own emphasis to some points. But they all are good.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

Can you back this up with archaeological evidence?

We know from Egyptian records that the sea-people (who some scholars believe include the Philistines - read in modern parlance, Palestinians) occupied the coastal Levant during the 11th century BCE. The earliest mention we have of Israel is the stele of Merneptah (reigned in Egypt between 1212 - 1202 BCE) where he states "Israel is laid waste, [and] his seed is not."

This mention does not constitute recognition of Israel as a nation, as the other places mentioned on the stele; Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanaom, were all cities/towns in the Levant (depending on your definition of city) which, geopolitically at that time was a collection of city-states/petty kingdoms and subject to Egypt.

The Philistines occupied the southern coastal region of the Levant and the Israelite city-state/petty kingdom/town was far to the north, so Israel's ancient claim over that land (the Southern Levant including Gaza (Gezer), Jerusalem (which was in Judah, not Israel), etc) based on occupancy during biblical times would be dubious at best. Not to mention Israel was destroyed by Egypt (and later when Israel reformed under a new kingship, it was destroyed again by the Assyrians during the 7th century BCE - it is then that there was a mass displacement of Israelites into Judah and Jerusalem, not before) so effectively the land held by it was open to occupation. Of course, we mustn't forget the Babylonian conquest of Israel during the 6th century BCE and the removal of much of the population to Babylon, a population who later returned when the Persians conquered Babylon.

Indeed, so much of the history of the region is of population displacement by force, that is could easily be debated that both the Israelites and the other occupiers of the Levant (such as the Philistines) have equal claim to the region.

Anyway, I'll wait for you to back up the claim (archaeologically, not biblically) of a Nation of Israel predating the 12th Century BCE.

Edited January 3, 2009 by Leonardo

[Moon Monkey]

im sorry to tell you man your facts dont mean ****, seriously what the **** is your point in all of this? what you are trying to prove that these israeli ****ers are good or something? if it was not for US then israel wouldnt do **** and would have never become a nation of terror! so please go do some research on something else than trying to defend or whatever it is that you are trying to show about israel.

There is nothing like intelligent debate and that post is nothing....

[Cradle of Fish]

Petty? Ha!

The Israeli-Arab conflict is very well capable of causing WW3, so don't call it "petty".

Petty and small are not the same thing. It's a petty conflict because it started over nothing really. It's one religious claim against another. The Jews claim that God promised them the land of Israel, but did nothing to help them protect their land, which they lost several times to several different invaders. The Muslims claim that the Dome of the Rock is where Mohammed ascended to heaven, yet Allah did not aid them when foreigners came to take the land, including the British who eventually handed the land to the Jews, because they felt their claim had more weight somehow. Now, if the Muslims claimed that they wanted the land because the Dome of the Rock is a beautiful structure, that to me has more weight in the real world that their Mohammed ascending to heaven one.

Now, this isn't to say a religious solution could be reached, it's just to say that religion always brings with it fanatical elements, and it's about time a secular solution is attempted.

[faraway]

That was a nice unbiased little post. Thanks. It's cleared up many things for me, like how israel is good and palestinians bad.

[Fluffybunny]

That was a nice unbiased little post. Thanks. It's cleared up many things for me, like how israel is good and palestinians bad.

Just remember, there is only one side to the story...

[questionmark]

(source: http://www.middleeastfacts.com/middle-east-facts.php)

I added my own emphasis to some points. But they all are good.

1. Nationhood and Jerusalem - Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.

2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.

3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.

4. Arabs have only had control of Israel twice - from 634 until the Crusader invasion in June 1099, and from 1292 until the year 1517 when they were dispelled by the Turks in their conquest.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran. There are vague references to Jerusalem in the Hadiths - stories about Mohammed - that he stopped his night journey (which the Koran explains took place in a dream!) at the "farther mosque" (or "distant place"). Muslims explain that this means "at the edge of the Temple mount", although no direct reference to Jerusalem or the Temple Mount is made.

7. King David established the city of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Some Muslims (i.e. those between Israel and Saudi Arabia) pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.

9. Arab and Jewish Refugees - In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.

11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.

13. The Arab - Israeli Conflict - The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.

16. The U.N. Record on Israel and the Arabs - Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.

define NATION

[Lt_Ripley]

Israel, US Policies Aided Hamas Rise

Warren P. Strobel, McClatchy Newspapers:

"The Gaza Strip wasn't supposed to be like this. In August 2005, when Israel unilaterally withdrew from the narrow coastal territory, then-Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon promised it would make Israel safer. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice hailed the move as 'historic.' Israel had left behind a political vacuum, however. That, along with decisions by Israel, the U.S. and Palestinian rivals inadvertently boosted the militant Islamic group Hamas into power."

http://www.truthout.org/010209K

as for the history of Israel ? there were people there long before the Jews ever laid claim to it. If there were no religion none of this fighting would be taking place over a piece of dirt. I doubt God want's anything to do with the area .

Edited January 3, 2009 by Lt_Ripley

[MasterPo]

Anyway, I'll wait for you to back up the claim (archaeologically, not biblically) of a Nation of Israel predating the 12th Century BCE.

I'm leaving for a dig next month so I'll let you know what we find.

NTL, the land of Israel has never been a muslim nation. It has been conquered and occupied by other muslim nations, perhaps acting as a province or territory of the overall muslim nation, throughout history but it has never been a liberated self contained muslim nation by itself.

Meanwhile it is a fact that Israel was a self contained, self governing nation several times throughout history.

[MasterPo]

define NATION

Self contained, self governing, autonimous, defined boarders...

[acidhead]

Meanwhile it is a fact that Israel was a self contained, self governing nation several times throughout history.

b.s.

[MasterPo]

b.s.

So King David, King Solomon et al. never existed.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[MasterPo]

Actions speak louder than words.

In the years that Hamas and the late Arafat had control over Gaza they built no school (other than islamic religous ones), no hospitals, no industry, didn't even get the garbage collected.

But they sure did purchase a whole lot of missles with lots of money that could have been spent doing good for their people.

With today's bleeding hearts just imagine how much support for their cause and how many billions or even trillions of dollars would have come flowing into them had they built modern schools, hosiptals, good housing, a good social services infrastructure....

And they blew it because peaceful co-existance isn't what they want - just killing Jews.

[Leonardo]

Meanwhile it is a fact that Israel was a self contained, self governing nation several times throughout history.

So have many other 'nations' in the area in question, some of them concurrent with or predating, the biblical 'nation' of Israel, so the point being made - that Israel has a valid claim to all this land based on sole occupancy/some unprovable divine grant before anyone else was able to grab it - is completely false. They may have claim to the region comprising the ancient city-state/petty-kingdom of Israel in the Nothern Levant if we wish to pursue this line of reasoning, but nothing more.