Facts about Israel and "Palestine"

[MasterPo]

So have many other 'nations' in the area in question, some of them concurrent with or predating, the biblical 'nation' of Israel, so the point being made - that Israel has a valid claim to all this land based on sole occupancy/some unprovable divine grant before anyone else was able to grab it - is completely false. They may have claim to the region comprising the ancient city-state/petty-kingdom of Israel in the Nothern Levant if we wish to pursue this line of reasoning, but nothing more.

Throughout history Jews have planned, hoped, and prayed for the return to and re-establishment of Israel. "Next yesr in Jerusalem" is a common prayer in many Jewish ceremonies.

There is more then sufficent archeological and historical evidence of the nation of Israel, the diaspora of the Jewish people, and the goal/intent of the return to the land.

There is no such record of the land of "palestine" ever being an arab nation nor any historical or religous context for arab peoples to return and re-establish (can't re-establish something that never was!) a nation there.

[questionmark]

Self contained, self governing, autonimous, defined boarders...

In the last 4000 years Israel has been that for less than 400... but please, don't let that stop you...

[MasterPo]

In the last 4000 years Israel has been that for less than 400... but please, don't let that stop you...

And an arab "Palestine" as been - zero.

[Leonardo]

There is no such record of the land of "palestine" ever being an arab nation nor any historical or religous context for arab peoples to return and re-establish (can't re-establish something that never was!) a nation there.

Are you stating categorically that the Palestinian peoples (the ancient Philistines) are not allowed to convert to Islam and become a Muslim nation because doing so invalidates their claim to land in that region?

Do you think they should continue to worship Dagon and the other ancient deities they considered their gods in biblical times (and before), otherwise they should not be allowed to be considered a people in their own right?

Do you consider that no nation of peoples should ever be allowed to change allegiances or borders? That any such nation who does so should be expunged?

Edited January 3, 2009 by Leonardo

[Lt_Ripley]

Throughout history Jews have planned, hoped, and prayed for the return to and re-establishment of Israel. "Next yesr in Jerusalem" is a common prayer in many Jewish ceremonies.

There is more then sufficent archeological and historical evidence of the nation of Israel, the diaspora of the Jewish people, and the goal/intent of the return to the land.

There is no such record of the land of "palestine" ever being an arab nation nor any historical or religous context for arab peoples to return and re-establish (can't re-establish something that never was!) a nation there.

the philistines lived in what you now call Israel long before there ever was a jew .......... just like there were people here that had their own religion in the US before the christians came.

get it ???? It ( Israel ) then belongs more so to the Arabs if you want to go by who has been there the longest . you'd lose. but then again Jews before they founded the religion were Arabs. still are since their origins are from the Iraq area going by Abraham.

[odas]

Are you stating categorically that the Palestinian peoples (the ancient Philistines) are not allowed to convert to Islam and become a Muslim nation because doing so invalidates their claim to land in that region?

Do you think they should continue to worship Dagon and the other ancient deities they considered their gods in biblical times (and before), otherwise they should not be allowed to be considered a people in their own right?

Do you consider that no nation of peoples should ever be allowed to change allegiances or borders? That any such nation who does so should be expunged?

I applaud you, master Leonardo.

[MasterPo]

Are you stating categorically that the Palestinian peoples (the ancient Philistines) are not allowed to convert to Islam and become a Muslim nation because doing so invalidates their claim to land in that region?

Woooo - Time out!

Aren't they muslim now?? (answer: yes)

As far as a "muslim nation" what do you call Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, UAE, Oman etc?

Edited January 4, 2009 by MasterPo

[IrishAidan07]

I'm generally with MasterPo on this one. Although, I don't think Israel is entirely innocent, either.

[IrishAidan07]

I believe the pre-'67 borders have always been in Israeli hands, and I think this map illustrates that.

Edited January 4, 2009 by IrishAidan07

[Pseudo Intellectual]

The map file type is .svg

What the heck is that?

Edited January 4, 2009 by Pseudo-Intellectual

[Leonardo]

Woooo - Time out!

Aren't they muslim now?? (answer: yes)

As far as a "muslim nation" what do you call Iran, Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, UAE, Oman etc?

Po,

Do you think that the Palestinians, because they are now a Muslim people, are no longer Palestinians but should be considered only 'Arab' and have to give up the land they lived in from pre-biblical times (when they were known as the Philistines) to live in another country which is also Muslim (Arab, to you)?

Do you think, if the Jewish nation was to elect a government who was predominantly Christian, and set out their policy with a Christian (rather than Jewish) flavour, that if the majority of the population were to be of Christian, rather than Jewish, faith, should they then be not considered the nation of Israel and therefore have to leave the region to go live in another Christian country?

Edited January 4, 2009 by Leonardo

[Black Red Devil]

Po,

Do you think that the Palestinians, because they are now a Muslim people, are no longer Palestinians but should be considered only 'Arab' and have to give up the land they lived in from pre-biblical times (when they were known as the Philistines) to live in another country which is also Muslim (Arab, to you)?

Do you think, if the Jewish nation was to elect a government who was predominantly Christian, and set out their policy with a Christian (rather than Jewish) flavour, that if the majority of the population were to be of Christian, rather than Jewish, faith, should they then be not considered the nation of Israel and therefore have to leave the region to go live in another Christian country?

Yeah also, according to the Hebrew Bible, the Land of Israel promised by God to Abraham's descendants included areas that are now Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc. Why don't Jews claim them as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

[Black Red Devil]

The map file type is .svg

What the heck is that?

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Yeah also, according to the Hebrew Bible, the Land of Israel promised by God to Abraham's descendants included areas that are now Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Jordan etc. Why don't Jews claim them as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

They gave Southern Lebanon back to Lebanon (which didn't work out too well for them). They still have the Golan hights, which Syria lost to Israel in a previous war. Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back. And Egypt doesn't want Gaza back.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/

That's great, but I'd rather see the picture than know about the file type.

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Sorry for the double post.

[Black Red Devil]

but I'd rather see the picture than know about the file type.

Then thats the question you should have asked the first time.

[Noteaph]

@MasterPo

Your statements sir, are a sad case of Israelian propoganda promotion, of which your beloved site is a part.

Down with the Israeli Zionist State.

Salus populi suprema lex

[Black Red Devil]

They gave Southern Lebanon back to Lebanon (which didn't work out too well for them). They still have the Golan hights, which Syria lost to Israel in a previous war. Jordan doesn't want the West Bank back. And Egypt doesn't want Gaza back.

Yeah but its more than that. The quote below (Wikipedia) from the Book of Genesis, one of the 5 books of Torah, illustrates the lands God promised them. For example the river Euphrates cuts through the top end of Syria.

Genesis 15:18-21 (KJV): In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates: The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

[Bill Hill]

Are you stating categorically that the Palestinian peoples (the ancient Philistines)

Sure, their behavior is a bit uncivilized but calling them a bunch of Philistines is a bit too much.

[Unknown Rebel]

Id just like to say the "Philistine - Palestinian" connection is unfounded and inaccurate.

[IrishAidan07]

That's great, but I'd rather see the picture than know about the file type.

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Sorry for the double post.

I can't insert the picture on the forum itself because, well, it's not a supported format. I just thought people wouldn't mind clicking on it. I didn't think that was too much to ask, but I reckon I was wrong.

[Leonardo]

Id just like to say the "Philistine - Palestinian" connection is unfounded and inaccurate.

If the Philistines are to be identified as one of the "Sea Peoples" (see Origins below), then their occupation of Canaan would have to have taken place during the reign of Ramesses III of the Twentieth Dynasty, ca. 1180 to 1150 BC. Their maritime knowledge presumably would have made them important to the Phoenicians.

In Egypt, a people called the "Peleset" (or, more precisely, prst), generally identified with the Philistines, appear in the Medinet Habu inscription of Ramesses III[6], where he describes his victory against the Sea Peoples, as well as the Onomasticon of Amenope (late Twentieth Dynasty) and Papyrus Harris I, a summary of Ramesses III's reign written in the reign of Ramesses IV. Nineteenth-century Bible scholars identified the land of the Philistines (Philistia) with Palastu and Pilista in Assyrian inscriptions, according to Easton's Bible Dictionary (1897).

The Philistines occupied the five cities of Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, and Gath, along the coastal strip of southwestern Canaan, that belonged to Egypt up to the closing days of the Nineteenth Dynasty (ended 1185 BC). The biblical stories of Samson, Samuel, Saul and David include accounts of Philistine-Israelite conflicts. The Philistines long held a monopoly on iron smithing (a skill they possibly acquired during conquests in Anatolia), and the biblical description of Goliath's armor is consistent with this iron-smithing technology.

This powerful association of tribes made frequent incursions against the Hebrews. There was almost perpetual war between the two peoples. The Philistine cities were ruled by seranim (סְרָנִים, "lords"), who acted together for the common good, though to what extent they had a sense of a "nation" is not clear without literary sources. After their defeat by the Hebrew king David, who originally for a time worked as a mercenary for Achish of Gath, kings replaced the seranim, governing from various cities. Some of these kings were called Abimelech, which was initially a name and later a dynastic title.

The Philistines lost their independence to Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria by 732 BC, and revolts in following years were all crushed. Later, Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon eventually conquered all of Syria and the Kingdom of Judah, and the former Philistine cities became part of the Neo-Babylonian Empire. There are few references to the Philistines after this time period. However, Ezekiel 25:16, Zechariah 9:6, and I Macabees 3 make mention of the Philistines, indicating that they still existed as a people in some capacity after the Babylonian invasion. Eventually all traces of the Philistines as a people or ethnic group disappear. Subsequently the cities were under the control of Persians, Jews (Hasmonean Kingdom), Greeks (Seleucid Empire), Romans, and subsequent empires.

The name "Palestine" comes, via Greek and Latin, from the Philistines; see History of Palestine.

source

Okay, it's Wiki again, but the same information exists spread out amongst several academic journals. The Palestine/Philistine link is not unfounded, and if you wish to show it is inaccurate then please provide your evidence.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Yeah but its more than that. The quote below (Wikipedia) from the Book of Genesis, one of the 5 books of Torah, illustrates the lands God promised them. For example the river Euphrates cuts through the top end of Syria.

That's impossible. Besides, they already have enough land, and they're doing ok with it. I don't think they're gonna be "expanding" any time soon.

[Unknown Rebel]

Well Demographic Fluctuations to begin with using the same logic as by calling the Palestinians Philistines due to location, i could easily call all people living in Nottinghamshire members of the Coritani just because they happened to live in the same place millennia apart. Also due to the fact that the majority of Philistines were noted to have settled in North Africa and Europe it doesn't really have much basis for comparison. Im not really one for giving a people a nation just because their supposed ancestors lived there centuries ago, if this were the case then i will happily vouch for the Kingdom of Bohemia.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Unknown Rebel

[Leonardo]

Well Demographic Fluctuations to begin with using the same logic as by calling the Palestinians Philistines due to location, i could easily call all people living in Nottinghamshire members of the Coritani just because they happened to live in the same place millennia apart. Also due to the fact that the majority of Philistines were noted to have settled in North Africa and Europe it doesn't really have much basis for comparison. Im not really one for giving a people a nation just because their supposed ancestors lived there centuries ago, if this were the case then i will happily vouch for the Kingdom of Bohemia. If it is the case then you aren't really doing many favours calling the Palestinians - Philistines as they weren't that much better off land wise.

My point about the Palestines having claim to land in the Levant by dint of their being descendants of the Philistines is not about how much land they are entitled to claim, but simply pointing out to MasterPo that his argument that, regardless they are now of Muslim faith, they have as much entitlement of claim as does Israel and the Jews.

I am presuming your map, btw, depicts quite a late period - certainly after the Babylonian occupation. Prior to this, the petty-kingdom of Israel was considerably smaller and located in the north of the region as this map illustrates. After the conquest of this kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians, a large part of the population fled south to the friendly kingdom of Judah whose King (Hezekiah) adopted the worship of an Israelite god, YHWH, as the official state religion (prior to this the Israelites had been effectively polytheistic) to ease the absoption of the Israelites (who outnumbered the native Judites) into the kingdom. Eventually Judah became synonymous with Israel and their conquests of the region after release from Babylonian captivity and the reinstatement of the Kingdom of Judah/Israel is represented in maps such as you have posted.

If the map is meant to represent the "United Kingdom of Israel" as some biblical scholars believe existed around the first millenium BCE (under the kingships of Saul, David and Solomon), then the existence of this state is disputed as archaeological records (from Egypt and other surrounding states at the time) do not support a large kingdom such as the bible describes.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Leonardo