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MasterPo

Facts about Israel and "Palestine"

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Unknown Rebel

It is from the late period, the united pre-BCE Israel is just rubbish in my opinion, and as you say, the Archaeology just does not support this.

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faraway

I love arguments like this. Everyone has their own 'facts' they've picked up off some website, news source, or whatever that completely disagree with another persons 'facts' they've got off another website, yet noone actually knows for sure any of them to be true, because they haven't seen the land, experienced the issues, or lived the history of two nations, they've simply been told something by a most likely biased source which they assume to be truth.

but peoplewill insist on having an opinion and arguing about it til the topics been flogged to death and still noone is any the wiser about the truth of the matter.

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stevewinn

I see the History lesson is still in session. We've gone back from 2009 all the way back to the time of the dinosaurs with these maps. am still waiting for someone to put up a map of Pangaea.

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Fluffybunny
I see the History lesson is still in session. We've gone back from 2009 all the way back to the time of the dinosaurs with these maps. am still waiting for someone to put up a map of Pangaea.

If you go back far enough, shortly after the earth cooled...there were Israeli cells living there, and then Palestinian cells...

But even that is disputed. I have a diagram somewhere....

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Guardsman Bass

Who the **** cares about whether the Palestinians are related to the Phillistines? They've been living in the land for nigh on 2000 years - there's a reason why there are such things as squatters' rights, people. Hell, they'd lived there longer than the Hebrews, who, if the mythology is true, drove out and massacred the prior inhabitants because "God told them to do it."

As for the ancient kingdom, it's questionable as to whether ancient Israel would be a nation by any modern definition. It was a collection of cities, towns, and villages, like most other areas. The religious crap is just what they use to justify it to themselves, and to build a constructed identity (it's worth noting that there is a large contingent of Jews among the sephardim who opposed the creation of Israel the nation).

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IrishAidan07
source

Okay, it's Wiki again, but the same information exists spread out amongst several academic journals. The Palestine/Philistine link is not unfounded, and if you wish to show it is inaccurate then please provide your evidence.

If you look at an ancient map, such as the one I provided, it is quite obvious that they are the same people. The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 years by Bernard Lewis also proves this. It's irrelevant, however. The pre-'67 borders have always been in Israeli hands - for the most part. With that being said, the only land the Palestinians can claim was stolen would be the Ancient Philistine cities, Gaza included. However, Israel has a right to occupy the territory if it is for their safety. Whether or not occupying the territory has made them safer or not is another discussion.

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little_dreamer

I wouldn't mind seeing a map of the region around 1900 or so.

It would be interesting to compare maps from both Western and Middle Eastern sources as well, from different time periods.

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Lord Umbarger

No matter how you cut it, if someone was shelling your family and nation and refusing to obey countless peace treaties, you'd probably want just about anything done to put a stop to it. Right now, Israel is acting in self defence. Where was all the rightous indignation when the bombs were falling on the Israeli kids?

If you poke at a bear long enough, it's going to bite you and you have no one to blame for it but, yourself.

Once again, some arab faction has picked a fight with Israel and once again, they are losing their shirts. By now, you'd think that they would have learned that they should never start a fight that they are psychologically afraid to loose and physically can't win. Sooner or later they will either learn from their own repeated foolishness or there won't be any of them left to poke at Israel.

It seems to me that hte Umited States and Israel are the only nations in history that are blamed for the suffering caused by wars they don't start. No one ever slammed the Palistinians for launching rockets at Israel but, Israel is getting all the bad press now. Now one ever bad mouthed the taliban for supporting the violent terrorist acts of 9/11 but, now all we hear about are the "innocent civilians shooting at U.S. troops" that are getting killed by the U.S. in a war that America did not start.

I am the first to leap to the side of the underdog... as an American and a gambler, it's an inbourne trait but, in this little hosing contest, the Palistinians are probably just getting what they deserve.

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viva revolution

israels army is raw and belive me, it can hold its ground....oh wait it has for the last thousand or so years.

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MasterPo
Po,

Do you think that the Palestinians, because they are now a Muslim people, are no longer Palestinians but should be considered only 'Arab' and have to give up the land they lived in from pre-biblical times (when they were known as the Philistines) to live in another country which is also Muslim (Arab, to you)?

So now "Palestinian" is a people and a faith??

I need a score card to keep track of the history being re-written here... :wacko:

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MasterPo
It is from the late period, the united pre-BCE Israel is just rubbish in my opinion, and as you say, the Archaeology just does not support this.

pre-BCE?

There's BCE and AD.

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MasterPo
Who the **** cares about whether the Palestinians are related to the Phillistines? They've been living in the land for nigh on 2000 years - there's a reason why there are such things as squatters' rights, people. Hell, they'd lived there longer than the Hebrews, who, if the mythology is true, drove out and massacred the prior inhabitants because "God told them to do it."

So let's say the Navajo or Cherokee (just as examples, not singling them out!) people constructed some rockets and started lobbing them into American cities claiming they want their land back because it was taken from them 150-200 years ago and they had been there for hundreds of years before Europeans came that would be OK? That would be something to negotiate out? That would justify dropping 1,000+ rockets into LA, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Salt Lake City.....??

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Black Red Devil
if this were the case then i will happily vouch for the Kingdom of Bohemia.

What a Rhapsody that would be! Their monarch would have to be .......a Queen.

Ok, bad joke! :blush:

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Unknown Rebel
pre-BCE?

There's BCE and AD.

pre first century BCE thats meant to be.

Then theres C.E.

Edited by Unknown Rebel

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Leonardo
No matter how you cut it, if someone was shelling your family and nation and refusing to obey countless peace treaties, you'd probably want just about anything done to put a stop to it. Right now, Israel is acting in self defence. Where was all the rightous indignation when the bombs were falling on the Israeli kids?

If you poke at a bear long enough, it's going to bite you and you have no one to blame for it but, yourself.

This I agree with in essence, a country and people have a right to defend themselves. One could ask whether the reaction of the Israeli military is in keeping with the level of provocation and whether the decision was purely made out of self-defence (the recent Russia/Georgia conflict springs to mind as a comparison) or whether it was, at least in part, political grandstanding by an outgoing leader.

My point in relaying the history of the region was to show how pathetic the points were, made on the site Po linked to about the Israeli's having claim to the area because of their history of nationhood.

Po, the Palestinians are a people, nowhere did I say that "Palestinian" was a 'faith'.

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Guardsman Bass
So let's say the Navajo or Cherokee (just as examples, not singling them out!) people constructed some rockets and started lobbing them into American cities claiming they want their land back because it was taken from them 150-200 years ago and they had been there for hundreds of years before Europeans came that would be OK? That would be something to negotiate out? That would justify dropping 1,000+ rockets into LA, Las Vegas, Phoenix, Salt Lake City.....??

Did you feel a slight breeze as the point of my post went sailing over your head? I pointed out that using ancient Israel as a justification for displacing a population that had lived in an area for 2000 years in order to create a nation is frankly a dumbshit reason. I don't recall actually mentioning Hamas once.

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Corp
It seems to me that hte Umited States and Israel are the only nations in history that are blamed for the suffering caused by wars they don't start. No one ever slammed the Palistinians for launching rockets at Israel but, Israel is getting all the bad press now. Now one ever bad mouthed the taliban for supporting the violent terrorist acts of 9/11 but, now all we hear about are the "innocent civilians shooting at U.S. troops" that are getting killed by the U.S. in a war that America did not start.

Ever nation has the right to protect its land and its people from harm and attack from outside forces...expect for Israel :rolleyes:

In part I think the reason who no one protests about the Palestinians attacks is because the protesters know that they won't care. There would be a million people marching down the street, call the rocket attacks evil and Hamas will just laugh at them and try to kill more Israelis. Where on the flip side Israel actually cares about how they're seen and have been know to bow to international pressure. It makes them easier to protest. Plus if there were protests against the likes of Hamas those poor people would never get any sleep, they'd in picketing 24/7.

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Mekorig

Just a note: I would take the info in the origial post with pincers, taking in count thatc omes from a website that host a poll about the most important jew, and its very biased to the jews. I would do the same with a very biased muslim website. For the future Po, try to get better sources.

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The Waterboy

A good friend of my pastor was involved with a pro-Palestinian organization that sent relief to Palestine. The USA government shut it down and put all members on the CIA watch list as it didn't fall with the pro-Israel beliefs.

There is no doubt in my mind that some aspects of the war are seriously aggrandized toward favor of Israel.

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Denisius
A good friend of my pastor was involved with a pro-Palestinian organization that sent relief to Palestine. The USA government shut it down and put all members on the CIA watch list as it didn't fall with the pro-Israel beliefs.

There is no doubt in my mind that some aspects of the war are seriously aggrandized toward favor of Israel.

I think you are lying, and I'll tell you why.

First of all, such an act would have been illegal unless that pro-palestinian organization was sending more than just relief to the Gaza Strip, if they did so then it would also make sense that they were put on the CIA watch list. Secondly, it would have been all over the news, especially on BBC and CNN, due to their extreme bias towards the palestinians.

What would you expect? Israel is U.S's best and closest ally, of course they will be aggrandized towards it. Even if that was not the case, I doubt the US would favor and support a terrorist organization of any kind, which Israel is fighting against.

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The Waterboy

Actually, I'm not lying at all. I have no reason too, haha. If he'll let me give you his e-mail, you're more than welcome to ask him about it.

The bias toward Israel doesn't surprise me at all. If some Palestines are terrorists, then the same may be said for some Israelis. At the same time though, I feel sorry for Israel. I went to the 2007 World Scout Jamboree and the Israel troops were very reserved and would rarely let visitors into their camps. They were terrified, and with a good reason too. Somehow I don't doubt that the USA had some involvement in that, seeing as how some countries don't support a lot of our policies right now, so seeing the USA active in an area as politically volatile as Israel is bound to cause more problems (no, I am not one of those conspiracy theorizing anti-Americans).

Edited by The Waterboy

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Denisius
Actually, I'm not lying at all. I have no reason too, haha. If he'll let me give you his e-mail, you're more than welcome to ask him about it.

The bias toward Israel doesn't surprise me at all. If some Palestines are terrorists, then the same may be said for some Israelis. At the same time though, I feel sorry for Israel. I went to the 2007 World Scout Jamboree and the Israel troops were very reserved and would rarely let visitors into their camps. They were terrified, and with a good reason too. Somehow I don't doubt that the USA had some involvement in that, seeing as how some countries don't support a lot of our policies right now, so seeing the USA active in an area as politically volatile as Israel is bound to cause more problems (no, I am not one of those conspiracy theorizing anti-Americans).

Giving me his e-mail would be pointless, since he could also very well be lying. If that indeed happened, then there must be some record of it somewhere, even a mention in a local news agency would suffice.

You seem to confuse terrorism with fanatism.

"Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism. Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants."

If you were referring to the IDF, then it cannot be considered a terrorist organization since it does not deliberately target civilians, but actually tries to minimize civilian casualties. Unlike terrorist organizations like Hamas, who's main targets are Civilians. See the difference?

And last I checked, there is no single military in the developed countries that allows civilians to enter active military bases without permission.

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Unknown Rebel
Actually, I'm not lying at all. I have no reason too, haha. If he'll let me give you his e-mail, you're more than welcome to ask him about it.

The bias toward Israel doesn't surprise me at all. If some Palestines are terrorists, then the same may be said for some Israelis. At the same time though, I feel sorry for Israel. I went to the 2007 World Scout Jamboree and the Israel troops were very reserved and would rarely let visitors into their camps. They were terrified, and with a good reason too. Somehow I don't doubt that the USA had some involvement in that, seeing as how some countries don't support a lot of our policies right now, so seeing the USA active in an area as politically volatile as Israel is bound to cause more problems (no, I am not one of those conspiracy theorizing anti-Americans).

There were Israeli Troops at the 2007 World Scout Jamboree ?

Edited by Unknown Rebel

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The Waterboy
There were Israeli Troops at the 2007 World Scout Jamboree ?

Scout troops, haha. Not military. A troop is an establish group of Scouts.

Giving me his e-mail would be pointless, since he could also very well be lying. If that indeed happened, then there must be some record of it somewhere, even a mention in a local news agency would suffice.

You seem to confuse terrorism with fanatism.

"Terrorism is the systematic use of terror especially as a means of coercion. At present, there is no internationally agreed definition of terrorism. Common definitions of terrorism refer only to those acts which are intended to create fear (terror), are perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants."

If you were referring to the IDF, then it cannot be considered a terrorist organization since it does not deliberately target civilians, but actually tries to minimize civilian casualties. Unlike terrorist organizations like Hamas, who's main targets are Civilians. See the difference?

And last I checked, there is no single military in the developed countries that allows civilians to enter active military bases without permission.

Research it if you want. I really don't have a reason to lie about it.

Hamas shouldn't be the poster child of the Israeli people though. Yes, I'm fully aware of what Palestinian organizations have done, but still... That's like saying American troops are terrorists for the massacres committed upon civilians in Vietnam.

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Unknown Rebel
Scout troops, haha. Not military. A troop is an establish group of Scouts.

Just making sure.

Edited by Unknown Rebel

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