Israeli Forces begin full-scale invasion.

[TheResearcher]

To a certain degree I agree, but civilian deaths can and should be kept to a minimum. I don't see this as the case now, as outside aid to the civilian population is strictly limited by the Israelis. The problem is, every Hamas fighter has family, friends, and a social network. Every Hamas fighter killed (not to mention every civilian killed!) spawns more anger hate and distrust among other arab civilians. You simply can't "kill them all".

About your last sentece, Hamas rocket attacks have killed 20 Israelis since 2005. The current Israel attack has killed 600 Palestinians and left more than 2500 wounded. In other words, if Hamas continued its attacks at the same rate they have for the past 3 years, it would take them about 85 years to match the amount of Palestinians already killed in Israel's current operation.

Of course, civilian deaths should be kept to a minimum. My point was how Hamas deliberatly target civilians whereas Israel do not intend to harm them. You also speak of proportion, but say you were in control of a country and you are constantly being rocket attacked from a smaller country. You wouldn't decide not to retaliate and let your civilians die. I'm not saying Israeli civilians live's are worth more but I'm saying those in control of Israel have a duty to protect it's own populace. To illustrate (as a friend of mine said) "If a midget comes up to me and slaps me, then I'm going to slap him back even if he's smaller than me".

If Israel stop their attack what will happen? Hamas will continue to rocket attack Israel. If a ceasefire occurs what will happen? Hamas will still fire rockets as Israel.

[acidhead]

Of course, civilian deaths should be kept to a minimum. My point was how Hamas deliberatly target civilians whereas Israel do not intend to harm them. You also speak of proportion, but say you were in control of a country and you are constantly being rocket attacked from a smaller country. You wouldn't decide not to retaliate and let your civilians die. I'm not saying Israeli civilians live's are worth more but I'm saying those in control of Israel have a duty to protect it's own populace. To illustrate (as a friend of mine said) "If a midget comes up to me and slaps me, then I'm going to slap him back even if he's smaller than me".

If Israel stop their attack what will happen? Hamas will continue to rocket attack Israel. If a ceasefire occurs what will happen? Hamas will still fire rockets as Israel.

You're frightened of a midget? lol

So much you'd slap back?

If the slapper was the same size as you or bigger what would your response be?

People type tough all the time... slapping a midget sounds ridiculous... just think about it for a second.

When confronted with assault 9 times out of 10 the average joe complains and demands an apology and if that doesn't happen

they attempt to have the situation resolved by a higher authority(police).

We are a compartimentalized based society.

[Moon Monkey]

During the 'seige' the WFO warehouses were full and all airconditioners were running full blast...where was that food and electricity coming from ?

When the warehouses were full and aircons were running Hamas blew the fence with Egypt to re-supply...with what, playstations and ninja turtles ?

Why would a stop to israeli attacks and open but monitored borders be 'against the purposes of the palesinian people' ?

Acidhead you have a bad habit of ignoring inconvinient questions and it really affects your ability to be taken seriously in a debate.

[bathory]

When the warehouses were full and aircons were running Hamas blew the fence with Egypt to re-supply...with what, playstations and ninja turtles ?

I would guess something beginning with W and ending in eapons

[jesspy]

I propse for the next Christmas that everyone in the world bangs their head. This should be mandatory for all nations and religions.

To set an example I will go first.

Odas has not posted in awhile do you think he knocked himself out banging his head?

anyway didnt hamas start this whole thing they threw rockets first or are we going way back into the past to lay the blame on someone else

[mambo132]

I hope not. If they do, Israel will win and the terrorists in Gaza will be dead and the rockets will stop so the Gazan's can live in Peace and then the whining american-hating terrorist supporters on this forum will have to find something new to cry about.

LONG LIVE DEMOCRACY! LONG LIVE ISRAEL! DEATH TO TERRORISM! DEATH TO HAMAS!

If this guy was born as a Palestinian he would be screaming ALLAH ACKBAR! LONG LIVE ALLAH! DEATH TO THE ZIONISTS! DEATH TO ISRAEL!

[acidhead]

If this guy was born as a Palestinian he would be screaming ALLAH ACKBAR! LONG LIVE ALLAH! DEATH TO THE ZIONISTS! DEATH TO ISRAEL!

I know... "we become what we hate".

Edited January 10, 2009 by acidhead43

[MasterPo]

Look at it like this:

For 60 years the arabs have been trying to destroy Israel. No success.

For at least 30 years (from say the 70's) arab terrorists have been killing Israeli civilians trying to get Israel to roll over. No success.

That means there have been at least 1-2 generations of arab children born into the mindset of hate and killing as their destiny.

How can a people hope to survive like that?

What kind of future does that offer to the next generations? More death and misery as the will of their G-d??

What does that say about the moral fabric of the arab, and especially the so-called "palestinian", people of the region if they are willing to condem generation after generation of their own people to a life of hardship and death?

Even the IRA realized war with England was going nowhere and they weren't getting anything done for their children and the future. So they found a way to try to co-exist. Neither side really likes it but it's better then war without end.

Arafat and Hamas were given that opportuntiy (once again) 10 years ago and just squandered it to kill more Jews and Israelies.

I don't know how you negotiate with such people. And even if you could how can you ever trust any agreement reached??

[Rastaman]

Does this scare anyone else?

-russia gives 10 mig 29's to lebanon last week FOR FREE!

-russias has talks with and supports mahmoud abbas (the leader of palestine israel hates)

-russia sends navy fleet to venezuela

-russia talks of setting up missle sheild in cuba

-russia sells high tech anti aircraft missles to iran

[Mad Manfred]

slapping a midget sounds ridiculous... just think about it for a second.

I dunno...it comes off hilarious in every context. Slapping the midget

Anyway, looks like they're escalating their "invasion".

[Unknown Rebel]

Does this scare anyone else?

-russia gives 10 mig 29's to lebanon last week FOR FREE!

-russias has talks with and supports mahmoud abbas (the leader of palestine israel hates)

-russia sends navy fleet to venezuela

-russia talks of setting up missle sheild in cuba

-russia sells high tech anti aircraft missles to iran

Not really, America has done pretty much the same with other states and political opponents to Russia i.e Missile Defence in Eastern Europe etc. So should we be scared of them ? No its just a different nations foreign policy.

[Mad Manfred]

-russia

Does this scare anyone else?

Nope. If it were China, yeah.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Does this scare anyone else?

-russia gives 10 mig 29's to lebanon last week FOR FREE!

-russias has talks with and supports mahmoud abbas (the leader of palestine israel hates)

-russia sends navy fleet to venezuela

-russia talks of setting up missle sheild in cuba

-russia sells high tech anti aircraft missles to iran

I can't say I'm surprised; the Soviets Russians have been helping the anti-Americans since...well, since ever.

[acidhead]

We don't see the images.

They are neatly censored from our view in this country. But everywhere else around the world the carnage that is Gaza is being seen and the people are revolted by what they see.

They see dead babies, decapitated bodies, defenseless relief workers killed. Maimed men, makeshift morgues, mortified mothers.

They see exploding white phosphorus shells, cluster bombs, depleted uranium munitions.

They see what is reportedly the world's fourth most powerful military using all of its power against a defenseless people.

In fact, they are witnesses to 15 days of war crimes, crimes against humanity, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.

They see Hugo Chavez expel Venezuela's Israeli Ambassador and they see lawmakers in Ecuador condemn Israel's actions, calling for an investigation into Israel's crimes against humanity.

And despite the obvious facts of an Israeli-sponsored terror campaign against Palestinians in Gaza, a piece of territory roughly twice the size of the District of Columbia, they see the U.S. Congress support a resolution totally supporting Israel, even though Israel is in violation of U.S. and international law.

They see Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, swaggering in insult to black America by initially refusing to seat Roland Burris from Illinois in the Senate, yet that same Reid cowers before the pro-Israel lobby, and they wonder why.

And sadly, they see the U.S. President-elect, who roared onto the scene like a lion, remain as quiet as a lamb in the face of the utter inhumanity of Israel's actions, and they wonder why.

And then, they see us. Gathered here in front of the White House, reaffirming our own humanity. The tears of the Palestinians roll down our cheeks, even as we bury our own victims of police murder.

A new day is coming in U.S. politics. We will use the power of our vote to change U.S. policy. We will no longer check our values at the door and support politicians and political parties that fail to deliver.

Not one more bomb to Israel.

In defense of humanity, we will not give up and we will win.

Cynthia McKinney is a frequent contributor to Global Research. http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...a&aid=11750

[Unknown Rebel]

Erm what Genocide ? people should understand this is a war, not an illegal incursion by Israel. Hamas sent a de-facto declaration of war in the form of thousands of rockets into southern Israel and they responded in turn with their Military. Im sure if rockets fell in your home town you wouldn't be supporting the people that fired it.

Here is a video, made by Palestinians, showing how Hamas treats its own people (for people who dont want to watch, it shows Hamas soldiers in full uniform and Hamas government trucks breaking up a wedding, firing into the wedding congregation and beating and killing the Groom, it also shows Hamas soldiers firing into a busy street and arresting a number of Palestinians which were later shot.) before people start crying "Israeli Propaganda" these are filmed by Palestinians inside the strip and narrated by an independent "Arab" which he keeps stating.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7_OGhj43GAE&...e-of-Hamas.html

The conflict is against Hamas NOT the Palestinian people and certainly no Genocide.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Unknown Rebel

[stevewinn]

Acid you'd think with the "crisis" worsening Egypt would open its border. but this isn't getting no mention either.

Edited January 12, 2009 by stevewinn

[acidhead]

Acid you'd think with the "crisis" worsening Egypt would open its border. but this inst getting no mention either.

In Egypt, its illegal to protest... go figure.

Same in Saudi Arabia.... go figure.

Public be-headings are a weekly event in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

Both countries are considered democracy's... go figure.

Saudi Arabia's had the SAME family in power for how many decades now?... go figure.

G.H.W.Bush and son kiss the hands of the King in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

The influence on non-christian governments is done using economics as a weapon... go figure.

Henry Kissinger's NWO is an economic new order... go figure.

[Unknown Rebel]

In Egypt, its illegal to protest... go figure.

Same in Saudi Arabia.... go figure.

Public be-headings are a weekly event in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

Both countries are considered democracy's... go figure.

Saudi Arabia's had the SAME family in power for how many decades now?... go figure.

G.H.W.Bush and son kiss the hands of the King in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

The influence on non-christian governments is done using economics as a weapon... go figure.

Henry Kissinger's NWO is an economic new order... go figure.

Hamas kill their own people (Palestinians)

Hamas are heavily Anti-Semitic and want to create an Islamic State with Sharia Law.

Hamas broke the Cease-Fire.

Hamas used money for weapons and to build up an army of over 30'000.

Hamas intentionally exploit dead babies, children, women and men.

Hamas are war criminals for intentionally targeting civilians.

In your own words, Go Figure.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Unknown Rebel

[stevewinn]

In Egypt, its illegal to protest... go figure.

Same in Saudi Arabia.... go figure.

Public be-headings are a weekly event in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

Both countries are considered democracy's... go figure.

Saudi Arabia's had the SAME family in power for how many decades now?... go figure.

G.H.W.Bush and son kiss the hands of the King in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

The influence on non-christian governments is done using economics as a weapon... go figure.

Henry Kissinger's NWO is an economic new order... go figure.

What are you going on about Acid. I said you'd think Egypt would open its border with Gaza amid this crisis. Our media over here don't mention this fact. they just say Israel wont open the Israeli border. go figure.

[acidhead]

What are you going on about Acid. I said you'd think Egypt would open its border with Gaza amid this crisis. Our media over here don't mention this fact. they just say Israel wont open the Israeli border. go figure.

Yeah why is it Egypt will not open its border? Every political decision on the planet is tied to economics. I think its safe to say Egypt and Saudi Arabia's governments are in the back pocket.

You should know Steve, Isn't it illegal to protest in London now without a permit?

Egypt blocks Gaza protest attempt

RIYADH (Reuters) http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/id...E50B4TK20090112

- A Saudi aid campaign for Palestinians wounded in Israel's assault on Gaza has gathered over 100 million riyals ($26.7 million) as the government tries to respond to rising popular anger over the offensive.

But this "protest by charity," as al-Riyadh daily called it, is the only protest to be found in the conservative kingdom, a lynchpin of U.S. policy in the Middle East that has tried to contain the threat of demonstrations.

The absolute monarchy has no elected parliament or legal opposition and public protests are generally banned.

Minority Shi'ite Muslims in eastern Saudi Arabia say dozens were arrested after a street protest days after Israel began its Gaza offensive on December 27 and that police broke up a second one with rubber bullets and batons.

The protests were reported on a Shi'ite website banned in Saudi Arabia, while the government denied they took place, citing a ban on such activities.

Two political reform activists were detained for trying to hold a sit-in in Riyadh two weeks ago, independent group Human Rights First said in a statement sent to news outlets.

"They considered it a legitimate right," said a colleague who requested his name be withheld for fear of arrest. He said the Interior Ministry refused to grant permission for the sit-in.

Students at King Abdul-Aziz University in Jeddah say they were denied permission to hold an indoor protest on campus.

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/new...03.frn0r5dw.php

More than 50000 Egyptians demonstrated in Alexandria after Muslim prayers on Friday against Israel's two-week-old onslaught in the Gaza Strip, witnesses and ...

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) — Thousands protested Friday against Israel's air offensive targeting Hamas at demonstrations in the Middle East and several continents. http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl...Ghon8wD95FCK7O0 In Egypt, authorities clamped down hard to prevent protests Friday. Hundreds of riot police surrounded Cairo's main Al-Azhar Mosque, where a rally had been called, and scuffled with would-be protesters, keeping most from approaching.

About 400 people gathered near the Al Fatah Mosque in Cairo to protest the ongoing Israeli attacks in Gaza and to get the Egyptian government to open the border between Gaza and Egypt.

With tears in his eyes, one demonstrator says Egypt should open its border to help its Palestinian brothers, the injured, the sick. He says he cannot watching television reports of the violence and remain calm. He asks to remain anonymous to protect himself from possible Egyptian government reprisal.

But in Cairo, the government moved in quickly to restrict the demonstrations. Fights erupted between police and protesters, but the security forces quickly prevailed. Officers in civilian clothing loaded protesters on to large police trucks and hauled them away.

Edited January 12, 2009 by acidhead43

[Corp]

In Egypt, its illegal to protest... go figure.

Same in Saudi Arabia.... go figure.

Public be-headings are a weekly event in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

Both countries are considered democracy's... go figure.

Saudi Arabia's had the SAME family in power for how many decades now?... go figure.

G.H.W.Bush and son kiss the hands of the King in Saudi Arabia... go figure.

The influence on non-christian governments is done using economics as a weapon... go figure.

Henry Kissinger's NWO is an economic new order... go figure.

Acidhead makes vague statements not related to the question so he can end up blaming the West...go figure

Israel has let 160 trucks of aid into Gaza and is saying that they might be ending their offensive soon. So we might finally be seeing an end to this, though Hamas is going to keep launching rockets no matter what.

[acidhead]

Acidhead makes vague statements not related to the question so he can end up blaming the West...go figure

Israel has let 160 trucks of aid into Gaza and is saying that they might be ending their offensive soon. So we might finally be seeing an end to this, though Hamas is going to keep launching rockets no matter what.

ok im calling you on this one . what's vague?

[Corp]

Your last two statements. How is economics being used on as a weapon? By who and on what countries? Because China and India, two non-Christian countries, seem to be doing just fine economically. And new world order...what new world order? Run by who, upheld by who? And what does Kissinger has to do with anything? Isn't he long retired?

[Unknown Rebel]

Well your never ending onslaught of news articles on a wide range of events (that seem related only by the mention of Israel being in the wrong) instead of being able to answer peoples points that are brought up within your posts. Then you just tell people to go figure on matters concerning Saudi Arabia's law and penal systems or on how much Hamas are the heroic, poor victims (which are the Palestinian people in fact) facing an impossible onslaught in this evil incursion by the Israeli's...these are just off the top of my head, dont know about others.

[Repoman]

So because of a group, again, we justifie a total war against a nation??

ROTFLM* edit: the letter "F" used here is short for a bad word, it has been replaced with the letter "F" which is short for "frigging"*AO!!!

TOTAL WAR?????

If Israel wanted your "total war", there wouldn't be a building left standing in Gaza. Please.

An their response is not disproportionate. Before Hamas started bombarding the Israeli civilian population, the violence level was at zero. Hamas raised it from 0 to 10 - an increase of an infinite percentage. Israel raised the violence from 10 to 50. An increase of only 500%.

Edited January 12, 2009 by Repoman