Russia cuts off gas to Europe

[AztecInca]

MasterPo this is your first and last warning, I will no longer tolerate your constant de-railment of threads with your Obama obsession. If you wish to discuss Obama do so in a thread where it is actually relevant. I would advise all members who witness this sort of thread de-railment to not respond to the post and report it so the discussion can continue on the topic at hand.

[MasterPo]

MasterPo this is your first and last warning, I will no longer tolerate your constant de-railment of threads with your Obama obsession. If you wish to discuss Obama do so in a thread where it is actually relevant. I would advise all members who witness this sort of thread de-railment to not respond to the post and report it so the discussion can continue on the topic at hand.

Please show me how I was inaccurate.

Was Obama not a U.S. Senator during the Bush Presidency?

Was Obama one of the many Senators who apparently was unaware of what Bush is claimed to have done until afterwards?

Was Obama as a Senator not in a position to raise a red flag?

(You'll also note I mentioned several other Senators as well)

Edited January 9, 2009 by MasterPo

[The Silver Thong]

Yup.

He's so dumb he planned and carried out 9/11 in secret and there are no documents, recordings or eye wittnesses!

He's so dumb he masterminded the real estate collaps, banking collaps and stock market collaps and no one else - not Pelosi or Frank or Dodd or even Obama himself - had any idea what was going on until it was too late.

And he is secretly supporting Israel in Gaza to further his genocidal ideas against arabs.

Yes sir. He is a totally idiot. Amazing the man can walk and breath at the same time.

WOW I don't have kids but if mine stomped there feet as much as you or whinned as much as you. I might want to resort back to smakin them up side the head or was that your up bringing? cause it didn't work....

[MasterPo]

WOW I don't have kids but if mine stomped there feet as much as you or whinned as much as you. I might want to resort back to smakin them up side the head or was that your up bringing? cause it didn't work....

Everywhere you go, every thing you read, watch or listen to says how plain stupid President Bush is. Yet he's also said to have planned all those things and much more (forgot to mention hurricane Katrina and blowing up the levies to assault the black population of New Orleans) without anyone - like those Senators I mentioned - having a clue what was going on.

So which way is it? A grade-A moron or a master mind?

[MARAB0D]

MasterPo this is your first and last warning, I will no longer tolerate your constant de-railment of threads with your Obama obsession. If you wish to discuss Obama do so in a thread where it is actually relevant. I would advise all members who witness this sort of thread de-railment to not respond to the post and report it so the discussion can continue on the topic at hand.

Hi. Obviously, in the current case he was linking the inability of US to say a word in this gas standoff with the change of its presidency, so the response was not entirely out of the blue. I fully support MPo on this motivation, however I think the current president Bush still has no power to interfere anyhow, as he lacks the means to avert the perverted Russia's desire to screw the EU at least a bit, and certainly Obama would have even less such means available.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

I think Bush should ask Russia to invade the EU, or at least teach them a lesson.

I'm sick of the EU complaining about America's "war-mongering", even though that "war-mongering" is the only thing keeping them from getting nuked by Russia.

[Saru]

MasterPo, back on topic please, a moderator has already asked you once.

This thread is entitled "Russia cuts off gas to Europe", it is not an Obama bashing session.

[Splodgenessabounds]

I think Bush should ask Russia to invade the EU, or at least teach them a lesson.

Wow, with ideas like that I find it hard to fathom why the world is in the awful state it's in. Also do you realize the irony in your post?

Edited January 9, 2009 by Splodgenessabounds

[Pseudo Intellectual]

No, not really.

[stevewinn]

Hundreds of thousands of homes in Europe remain without heating amid plunging temperatures as a gas row between Russia and Ukraine continues. More than 15 countries have been hit by the shutdown of Russian supplies. Serbia and Bosnia-Hercegovina are among the worst hit as many homes rely on heating stations that only run on gas. The EU said it had reached agreement on an observer mission to monitor gas flows, but it was unclear when supplies would resume.

The EU depends on Russia for about a quarter of its total gas supplies, some 80% of which are pumped via Ukraine. Russia cut gas to Ukraine itself a week ago as the row over pricing and allegedly unpaid bills escalated. Ukraine denies Russian accusations that it is stealing gas passing through export pipelines on its territory.

Dependence on Russia for gas:

100% dependent on Russia: Latvia, Slovakia, Finland, Estonia

More than 80% dependent: Bulgaria, Lithuania, Czech Republic

More than 60% dependent: Greece, Austria, Hungary

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7819429.stm#map

[MasterPo]

MasterPo, back on topic please, a moderator has already asked you once.

So....

Sounds to me like it's Europes own darn fault, relying sooooooo much on Russia!

If I were to apply the rhetoric of recent times I would say the Europe is "addicted" to Russian gas!

[MARAB0D]

At the moment Russia is losing $150 mln a day or about $1 bln per week of this dispute, however I can not see any panic on that side at all. They are surely committed to freeze the EU's guts unless EU withdraws its tentacles from Russia's sphere of influence, which it has clearly drawn. What they say, in translation means "you wanted Ukraine to be your ally against us, so you can have it for the price".

I can assess this development as dangerous, as this is in fact a first known case, when Russia decides to sacrifice money for the cause, means at the moment money does not matter for it. Refusal to accept money is the refusal to negotiate, means the standoff about Ukrainian future came to its climax. Moreover, the gas cut-off is the only non-military tool which Russia has in its arsenals, and if it does not work to their design, we may soon see much uglier scenes than some freezing Bulgarians or Bosnians. I would notice that even in the middle of Cold War we were not that close to a real war as now.

[The Silver Thong]

So....

Sounds to me like it's Europes own darn fault, relying sooooooo much on Russia!

If I were to apply the rhetoric of recent times I would say the Europe is "addicted" to Russian gas!

I would have to agree with you there!

Just as the U.S. is addicted to middle eastern fuel. Hypocrite.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

* snip * Thong! You never miss a chance, do you? Edited January 10, 2009 by Saru
Edited for crude language

[The Silver Thong]

* snip * Thong! You never miss a chance, do you?

LOL Not when it slaps me in the face. The EU has a lot of concerns right now and yes fuel is one of them but to point a finger from one's own dirty backyard to get a jab in on someone else's dirty backyard that is just as guilty, is rather silly don't you think?

Now if the E.U. or the U.S. for that matter want independent fuel come and talk to Canada I'm sure we could work something out However if Saudi ties are to strong to break who am I to roll my eye's LOL

Oil corrupts and if you can't see that, well then so be it.... In your opinion what country is next to be liberated?

Edited January 10, 2009 by The Silver Thong

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Po has never said anything about how the US isn't addicted to oil. All he said was that Europe was relying too much on Russia.

Maybe he believes the US is indeed addicted to oil. Did that ever cross your mind when you decided to call him a hypocrite?

And to believe W would put thousands of American soldiers in harm's way, "ruin" America's international image and make a complete mockery of himself over oil is just....absurd. I bet you also believe we never went to the moon, and that the US Government was responsible for 9/11.

[Dusty Digital]

I think Bush should ask Russia to invade the EU, or at least teach them a lesson.

I'm sick of the EU complaining about America's "war-mongering", even though that "war-mongering" is the only thing keeping them from getting nuked by Russia.

Lol. Talk about cold war mentality. Why would Russia nuke Europe? The EU is Russia's largest trading partner and a source of most of its economic growth. You seem to have pretty ridiculous idea of Russia. When Europeans talk about US war mongering by the way, they are talking about the U.S. in middle east. That doesn't have much of a deterrent effect on Russia now does it?

And master po, I completely agree with you that Europe is too addicted to Russian gas. Pretty much every European country is aware of this too, and trying to reduce their dependence on Russian gas. You might keep in mind though, that Russia is also very "addicted" to European money. Europe imports 25% of its natural gas from Russia. Russia exports 50% of its natural gas to Europe.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

I was of course joking about the nuke thing.

--------------

*Update*

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — EU monitors are deploying to gas pumping stations across Ukraine as Russia prepares to resume gas supplies to Europe.

Ukraine says it will allow European, Russian and its own experts to track the flow of Russian gas through Ukraine pipelines.

Kiev had agreed to the monitors in a pact signed early Sunday. Russia had insisted on a written agreement before it would restart gas flows.

Russia's state gas giant Gazprom cut off all supplies to Europe through Ukraine Wednesday amid a bitter gas price dispute. Ukrainian officials say it may take up to three days for gas to reach European countries.

Monitors have been dispatched to gas pumping stations on Ukraine's eastern and western borders.

Edited January 11, 2009 by Pseudo-Intellectual

[MARAB0D]

Next announcement would be that Russia still is unable to supply gas to Europe, even if the observers control the taps. The reason to this is that Russia and Ukraine have no valid gas transportation contract - the old one, in which Ukraine was charging $1.6 per million cubs per 100 km was just outlawed by Ukrainian court, and they are trying to negotiate the transit fee from scratch.

But the above negotiations are strongly depended on the price Ukraine would be paying for the gas supplied according the another contract, supplies to Ukraine itself. Russia offers gas at $450 per million cubes and transit fee of about $3.50 (in Europe normal fee is $4-$4.50). Moreover, in order to transport gas to Europe Ukraine has to buy some gas from Russia to ensure this transportation, purely technical issue - but so far it is unclear at which price!!!

Russia tries to get rid of this headache and make Ukraine to deal on transportation fee with EU, but this would simply make Ukraine fully depended on Russia politically, as then Russia can halt supplies to it forever. Extention of negotiations threatens the hydrate stoppers, freezing inside the pipes, so the gas row can be far from resolution...

[keithisco]

I think Bush should ask Russia to invade the EU, or at least teach them a lesson.

I'm sick of the EU complaining about America's "war-mongering", even though that "war-mongering" is the only thing keeping them from getting nuked by Russia.

Can I just clarify something about the EU. It does not have a common Foreign Policy ergo.... the EU can not make any de facto foreign policy statement re America's "war-mongering". I am aware that the EU as an institution is not very well understood "across the pond" by many people, but even a simple Google will prevent much "foot-in-the-mouth" inaccuracies.

I thought it was NATO that originally prevented the threat of nuclear war (not just the USA) and when UK and France became independent nuclear nations then the threat of war also receded.....

As for the gas situation please also note that not all of europe is affected - so when talking about europe's dependency on Russian gas it is simply inaccurate to "lump" all countries under the non-existent European flag...... Just for clarity

Edited January 11, 2009 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

The dependence on Russia's Natural resources is the Achilles' heel of Europe. mainly for the eastern block.

i remember Poland announcing it was going to move away from dependence on Russian energy, since then Poland has been burning more coal than ever, they even have a clause written in to the EU climate change bill which allows them to burn more coal.

[Primeval]

Some of you may remember me babbling on and on incessently about how the growing dependancy on Russian fuel would give the Russians too much power over the European nations and could be used as a tool to pressure them into voting its way in the U.N. or to just muscle them into acting right, Russian style. As I recall, I was dismissed and laughed at. Well, here it is happening and not even for a control reason!

In short, when Lord Umbarger tells you that his cat can write poetry, don't look at him like he is crazy, just get the pen and paper out for the kitty!

Here, have a gold star! 

[MARAB0D]

The dependence on Russia's Natural resources is the Achilles' heel of Europe. mainly for the eastern block.

i remember Poland announcing it was going to move away from dependence on Russian energy, since then Poland has been burning more coal than ever, they even have a clause written in to the EU climate change bill which allows them to burn more coal.

Steve, it all can be seen either way. If there was no push for amending political systems in the remote countries and reshaping the world map, then Europe could easily get gas from such country as Iran as well. There was a moment when Europe and US placed a geopolitical bet on their ability to interfere with the others, and this disrespect to the others caused resistance and formed axis of evil. If it was only trade relationships between the countries of the world, then not only Iran could be the gas supplier, but also Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan, which border it! But the attempts were made to dislodge governments in all countries, supplying fuel, and today they have the result.

I do not blame EU or USA, but the reality they created is unfriendly to themselves - they wanted to influence others and instead themselves got into a dependency. Just remember 1970s - Europe did not plan to destroy USSR, at least openly, and there was no need for it to look for the alternative supplier despite their dependency from Soviet gas. Then they tried to meddle in Russia's affairs and get the same gas for free via the Energy Chart, now they are in panic, looking for alternatives. We reap what we sow.

[MasterPo]

You can't be "addicted" to something that is essential for your well being. That's like saying I'm addicted to air, water, food.

[MARAB0D]

You can't be "addicted" to something that is essential for your well being. That's like saying I'm addicted to air, water, food.

Right... But on the other hand they chose to invest in gas-driven economy rather than to look for the alternative sources. However with nuclear power they would also run into the same dependency on US and Russian nuclear fuel... Good is it won't be pumped via Ukraine though.