The ancient Celts

[norwood1026]

Why would the Romans lie about it? I

Perhaps the same reason Christians of the day tried to make all other religions look bad. To make themselves look better. To be honest very little is known of any religion or people dating back over some 2,000 years ago. Sure history gives us a look at what might have been but the Romans is what they are judged by being that they were there. Most of what Ceaser said came from the writings of Posidonius who was a philosopher of all things. In turn Strabo used Posidonius has his main source Therein lies the problem history is basing everything on those three people.

Edited January 22, 2009 by norwood1026

[Wolf MacCanine]

Other then people posting what Ceaser & other Romans have written nothing has been proved that they did. Every post you all put up points back to Ceaser. I'm not saying that I am right but there is little proof that the Celts did scrafice anyone. I'm sure by todays standards their ways would seem brutal. And just because people disargee with me does not make me wrong nor does it make anyone else right. Everyone here is basing thier believes on what Ceaser & those who followed him, which is fine if you want to believe one group of people.

Norwood,I hate to tell you this,but it is well known that the Celts did perform sacrifices.

During hard times,when a village could not produce enough food to keep the whole village alive during a harsh winter,they would accept volunteers from the old who could no longer do much in the way of work. These "victims" were proud to volunteer for sacrifice,and were honored by the rest of the village. The reason that the old and infirm were looked at first was simply because the younger folk in the village still had more life left in them as well as strength...which were needed in order to help provide food for the future,while the old and infirm had already lived out their lives and could no longer do much. During good harvests though,there would not be any sacrifices,and the elderly could still be useful in teaching the younger folk in various things.

Also,it is known that some "victims" were chosen by food. I can't remember the exact particulars at the moment,but it had something to do with bread. A group of eligible "victims" would be invited to a small feast,where they would be served bread and wine...although one loaf was special,in that it would be drugged. Once a person showed the signs of having ingested the special loaf of bread,they were then "led to the slaughter",so to speak. I just can't remember what drug was used,or what effects it had on the person who ingested it.

Now,as far as the Druids are concerned,it is possible that Caesar was correct in the assumption that criminals were sacrificed,but whether or not the sacrifice was always burning remains subjective. Too,the "figures of immense size whose limbs, woven out of twigs" (Wicker Man) is probably an exaggeration,it was very likely a much smaller structure that would contain at least a few persons...instead of a huge Wicker Man like the type burned these days by some of the Neo-Pagan groups. Remember,the ancient Druids served the people in many aspects...including as Judges,Juries...and Executioners.

And yes,there is much evidence that sacrifices had been performed long before Caesar came to the Celts. Remains have been found under the foundations of Neolithic structures,and the remains have shown signs of being sacrificed. Now,whether or not they were willing victims,I doubt that we will ever know. But,nonetheless,the evidence is there.

Too,another valuable source for such queries comes from the folk tales and legends of the Celts. There are mentions of sacrifices in some of the old tales from across the Celtic lands.

Now yes,I do agree (along with many historians) that the Roman sources do tend to be a bit biased and exaggerated,but there are still some truths contained within their writings. A better look into all possible sources would be better than outright dismissing certain writings fully.

Seriously,the Celts were just like many other ancient peoples...many of which practiced forms of sacrifice for certain reasons. It's not that far-fetched to see that it was a distinct probability that the Celts performed some sacrificial rites (which the Druids would most likely have performed many of,whereas a Chieftan would've done others). After all,this was also a society that would mount the head of a slain enemy into the doorsill of a home,not only to honor a vanquished foe which had been deemed superior,but also to gain some of the slain warrior's prowess and knowledge.

Now,if you want a really good book that does look at different sources regarding the Celts and Druids,I would suggest "The Quest for Merlin",by Nikolai Tolstoy. It's a long read,but it goes into quite a bit of detail regarding both the Celtic people and the Druids.

Edit: Because it's late and I can't spell at the moment,as I'm dog tired.

Edited January 22, 2009 by Wolf MacCanine

[norwood1026]

Norwood,I hate to tell you this,but it is well known that the Celts did perform sacrifices.

During hard times,when a village could not produce enough food to keep the whole village alive during a harsh winter,they would accept volunteers from the old who could no longer do much in the way of work. These "victims" were proud to volunteer for sacrifice,and were honored by the rest of the village. The reason that the old and infirm were looked at first was simply because the younger folk in the village still had more life left in them as well as strength...which were needed in order to help provide food for the future,while the old and infirm had already lived out their lives and could no longer do much. During good harvests though,there would not be any sacrifices,and the elderly could still be useful in teaching the younger folk in various things.

Also,it is known that some "victims" were chosen by food. I can't remember the exact particulars at the moment,but it had something to do with bread. A group of eligible "victims" would be invited to a small feast,where they would be served bread and wine...although one loaf was special,in that it would be drugged. Once a person showed the signs of having ingested the special loaf of bread,they were then "led to the slaughter",so to speak. I just can't remember what drug was used,or what effects it had on the person who ingested it.

Now,as far as the Druids are concerned,it is possible that Caesar was correct in the assumption that criminals were sacrificed,but whether or not the sacrifice was always burning remains subjective. Too,the "figures of immense size whose limbs, woven out of twigs" (Wicker Man) is probably an exaggeration,it was very likely a much smaller structure that would contain at least a few persons...instead of a huge Wicker Man like the type burned these days by some of the Neo-Pagan groups. Remember,the ancient Druids served the people in many aspects...including as Judges,Juries...and Executioners.

And yes,there is much evidence that sacrifices had been performed long before Caesar came to the Celts. Remains have been found under the foundations of Neolithic structures,and the remains have shown signs of being sacrificed. Now,whether or not they were willing victims,I doubt that we will ever know. But,nonetheless,the evidence is there.

Too,another valuable source for such queries comes from the folk tales and legends of the Celts. There are mentions of sacrifices in some of the old tales from across the Celtic lands.

Now yes,I do agree (along with many historians) that the Roman sources do tend to be a bit biased and exaggerated,but there are still some truths contained within their writings. A better look into all possible sources would be better than outright dismissing certain writings fully.

Seriously,the Celts were just like many other ancient peoples...many of which practiced forms of sacrifice for certain reasons. It's not that far-fetched to see that it was a distinct probability that the Celts performed some sacrificial rites (which the Druids would most likely have performed many of,whereas a Chieftan would've done others). After all,this was also a society that would mount the head of a slain enemy into the doorsill of a home,not only to honor a vanquished foe which had been deemed superior,but also to gain some of the slain warrior's prowess and knowledge.

Now,if you want a really good book that does look at different sources regarding the Celts and Druids,I would suggest "The Quest for Merlin",by Nikolai Tolstoy. It's a long read,but it goes into quite a bit of detail regarding both the Celtic people and the Druids.

Edit: Because it's late and I can't spell at the moment,as I'm dog tired.

I'm sorry my friend but even putting what the Romans wrote aside I am not seeing it. I'll check into the book you mentioned I agree with you about the Druids being judge & jury they were the law. As far as the Wicker man goes I looked it up, I remember the movies & the stories from what I've read there is little evidence to suggest anything outside Ceaser's account. I've read some outside sources & that's why I mentioned the book by Peter Berresford Ellis. Again I am not saying that they were perfect I just don't see any real evidence as of yet. If they did well I'm wrong & will admit it but untill then I will remain skepital.

Edited January 22, 2009 by norwood1026

[Wyvernkeeper]

Norwoods heart has been charmed, i dont think any of us are going to reach him/her....

[norwood1026]

Norwoods heart has been charmed, i dont think any of us are going to reach him/her....

No religion is perfect they all have thier secrets so I'm not saying that the Celts don't I am not seeing the evidence other then what Ceaser wrote.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Here are some other good books on the Celts.

Ronald Hutton; The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, Their Nature and Legacy.

Daithi O'Hogain; The Sacred Isle: Pre-Christian Religions in Ireland

Anne Ross; Pagan Celtic Britain.

Hutton's is my favorite.

One thing people don't understand about the Celts is they were not all one people. So their customs varied widely form village to village. Some may have done sacrifice and others didn't. According to Hutton there is no evidence of human sacrifice by the Irish Celts, but there is for other groups.

[Richard Stanbery]

Dont get the everyday working law of the Brehons confused with the special rituals, Samhains, Beltayne (sp?) Im too tired to look up the spellings. You all know what Im talking about anyway.

[Wolf MacCanine]

Here are some other good books on the Celts.

Ronald Hutton; The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, Their Nature and Legacy.

Daithi O'Hogain; The Sacred Isle: Pre-Christian Religions in Ireland

Anne Ross; Pagan Celtic Britain.

Hutton's is my favorite.

One thing people don't understand about the Celts is they were not all one people. So their customs varied widely form village to village. Some may have done sacrifice and others didn't. According to Hutton there is no evidence of human sacrifice by the Irish Celts, but there is for other groups.

I agree,Hutton knows his stuff.

And true,practices did vary widely. If I remember correctly,there were some tribes of French Gauls (Celts) that had performed some sacrifices,as well as some of the tribes in Britain. I'd have to dig through the Irish tales again,because I think I saw a mention in one of them regarding sacrifice,but I could be quite wrong...it has been ages since I read the Irish tales.

Unfortunately,I'll be away for the weekend,so I doubt that I'll have much chance to check anything for a while.

[norwood1026]

I picked my my copy of Bonewitts guide to Druidism I haven't read it in a while. One paragraph was about Stuart Piggott who belived that Druids did Sacrifice humans he wrote a book simply called The Druids. I'll have to check into it to see where & how he got that information from. I know that the Celts were warriors & perhaps that is where someone got the idea that they Sacrificed people, in a time of war perhaps they impelled thier enemies on spears to scare them away. I read some where (can't remember where) that people Volunteered to be Sacrificed.

[MaggieDruydess]

Warriors were buried with great honor. It is very possible that these 'bodies' of the richly clad and adorned people were warriors, or shamans/holy people wise women/healers. and that thoe bodies not adorned such a way were criminals who suffered a death penalty. The laws were very rigid back then. I the Norse laws one who molested or beat a child (beyond a certain point) and Theives who were not run off were put to death.

It is also very possible that some people went willingly to saccrifice as an act of faith and honor. I for one do not beleive the whole violent, sacrifice against a person will idea of the Celts or Norsemen.

[Mattshark]

Warriors were buried with great honor. It is very possible that these 'bodies' of the richly clad and adorned people were warriors, or shamans/holy people wise women/healers. and that thoe bodies not adorned such a way were criminals who suffered a death penalty. The laws were very rigid back then. I the Norse laws one who molested or beat a child (beyond a certain point) and Theives who were not run off were put to death.

It is also very possible that some people went willingly to saccrifice as an act of faith and honor. I for one do not beleive the whole violent, sacrifice against a person will idea of the Celts or Norsemen.

Would these be the Norsemen who went through raping and pillaging a lot?

A lot of these ideas about nice loving Celts come from the 17th century Romance movement rather than history.

According to the Egyptian-Greek writer Athenaeus the Celtic men like to sleep with young boys too.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Mattshark

[norwood1026]

Would these be the Norsemen who went through raping and pillaging a lot?

A lot of these ideas about nice loving Celts come from the 17th century Romance movement rather than history.

According to the Egyptian-Greek writer Athenaeus the Celtic men like to sleep with young boys too.

From what I've read about the Romans they did also.. I think everyone was pretty much bisexual then.

[MaggieDruydess]

Would these be the Norsemen who went through raping and pillaging a lot?

A lot of these ideas about nice loving Celts come from the 17th century Romance movement rather than history.

According to the Egyptian-Greek writer Athenaeus the Celtic men like to sleep with young boys too.

According to some of the history books I read in high school the norsemen you refer to were Vikings. The Norsemen who did not sail about raping, plundering and burning were very much like the Navaho Indians of america. They raised sheep and cattle, were very spiritual and dedicated to their families and communities.

Edited January 23, 2009 by MaggieDruydess

[Mattshark]

From what I've read about the Romans they did also.. I think everyone was pretty much bisexual then.

When I saw young boys, I mean very young.

[Mattshark]

According to some of the history books I read in high school the norsemen you refer to were Vikings. The Norsemen who did not sail about raping, plundering and burning were very much like the Navaho Indians of america. They raised sheep and cattle, were very spiritual and dedicated to their families and communities.

We KNOW the Norse liked the occasional human sacrifice. I think you are letting Romanticism get the better of you again.

Edited January 23, 2009 by Mattshark

[MaggieDruydess]

We KNOW the Norse liked the occasional human sacrifice. I think you are letting Romanticism get the better of you again.

? Again ?

I'm confused, I don't recall denying that that bodies were found and the hypothesis was 'human sacrifice.' As i stated before....

"Warriors were buried with great honor. It is very possible that these 'bodies' of the richly clad and adorned people were warriors, or shamans/holy people wise women/healers. and that thoe bodies not adorned such a way were criminals who suffered a death penalty. "

taking that into account, where is the proof that there was human sacrifice and one of the above is not the case?

[Mattshark]

? Again ?

I'm confused, I don't recall denying that that bodies were found and the hypothesis was 'human sacrifice.' As i stated before....

"Warriors were buried with great honor. It is very possible that these 'bodies' of the richly clad and adorned people were warriors, or shamans/holy people wise women/healers. and that thoe bodies not adorned such a way were criminals who suffered a death penalty. "

taking that into account, where is the proof that there was human sacrifice and one of the above is not the case?

Why assume all those slaves they sacrificed where willing or the 9 sons of King Aun wanted to be sacrificed?

Odin is associated with hanging and strangulation and there have been bodies from sacrifices found in Jutland.

[Plainbob13]

Here are some other good books on the Celts.

Ronald Hutton; The Pagan Religions of the Ancient British Isles, Their Nature and Legacy.

Daithi O'Hogain; The Sacred Isle: Pre-Christian Religions in Ireland

Anne Ross; Pagan Celtic Britain.

Hutton's is my favorite.

One thing people don't understand about the Celts is they were not all one people. So their customs varied widely form village to village. Some may have done sacrifice and others didn't. According to Hutton there is no evidence of human sacrifice by the Irish Celts, but there is for other groups.

Not so true. There is a a book called, "A course in Irish history.". I don't have the book any more. BUt in it it stated that they, the celts of ireland sometimes used human sacrifice to mark boundries between two kingdoms.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Would these be the Norsemen who went through raping and pillaging a lot?

A lot of these ideas about nice loving Celts come from the 17th century Romance movement rather than history.

According to the Egyptian-Greek writer Athenaeus the Celtic men like to sleep with young boys too.

So did the Greeks. The Celts were also head hunters. They were a wild folk.

[Mattshark]

So did the Greeks. The Celts were also head hunters. They were a wild folk.

I know, there is less of a distorted "happy" image around the greeks though. The new age movement has a lot to answer for in terms of history.

[MaggieDruydess]

Why assume all those slaves they sacrificed where willing or the 9 sons of King Aun wanted to be sacrificed?

Odin is associated with hanging and strangulation and there have been bodies from sacrifices found in Jutland.

That would be due to the hanging from the tree of knowledge, sacrificing an eye, etc, etc, etc, correct?

"I know, there is less of a distorted "happy" image around the greeks though. The new age movement has a lot to answer for in terms of history."

With that I agree. I hate all this fluffly love magick stuff. Why are people so afraid of balance?

And I'm not arguing, just trying to be objective.

[Mattshark]

That would be due to the hanging from the tree of knowledge, sacrificing an eye, etc, etc, etc, correct?

"I know, there is less of a distorted "happy" image around the greeks though. The new age movement has a lot to answer for in terms of history."

With that I agree. I hate all this fluffly love magick stuff. Why are people so afraid of balance?

And I'm not arguing, just trying to be objective.

Don't know about the tree of knowledge (thought that was a Christian thing) but from trees yes and apparently with spears too!

I am trying to be objective too, not saying that they were worse or better than other race or society. Just trying to get a better idea of these people.

[MaggieDruydess]

I don't think humanity will ever change, for all our differences we are all very much the same. All tribes/races have murder in the name of religion/faith/purety. Back then human sacrifice and war were common. Today people rob, rape and murder. Back then they had gladiators, today we have kick boxing cage matches, dog fights, etc, etc, etc.

We are all the same, flawed, searching for answers, it does not matter the reason, or the name in which we commit these acts, we still know inside its wrong.

[norwood1026]

Why assume all those slaves they sacrificed where willing or the 9 sons of King Aun wanted to be sacrificed?

Odin is associated with hanging and strangulation and there have been bodies from sacrifices found in Jutland.

I'm not sure what faith you are or even if you have a faith, but it seems to be you want to paint this in a bad light. Odin was hung from a tree for nine days & pierced by his own spear. To gain knowledge. No bady said anything about him using it one anyone but himself, your running with whatever you can for whatever reason. I've never heard of Odin being known for strangulation & there are many different thoughts on him. I'd like to know where you heard that from. Your assocationing spears with what Ceaser said about the Gaul's for whatever reason. As I've said before no religion is perfect People can tend to use it against others, even those of the same faith. I'm sure it happaned then just as it does now. There is nothing wrong with balcance but you seem very one sided on this topic. People have done some really stupid things in the past in the name of religion & still do. Even Athiest do stupid things in the name of no religion. No one religion is perfect they all have skeltions in thier closet. If I run across something that doesn't feel baised towards the Celts & makes sence to me then so be it. At this moment in time I have found nothing.

Edited January 24, 2009 by norwood1026

[MaggieDruydess]

I'm with Norwood on this one. Sorry.