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Kortef

Satan= Bunch o' B.S?

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trublvr

I agree with X~File Agent, but could sum1 clear this up for me. If we're created in gods image, is he not also susseptable to temptaion? And also, why create beings with free will and then deny them knowledge?

Libidinous Scourge,

Greetings, LS. The Judeo-Christian God can be tempted, but God's temptation is a little different from that of human beings. God can be tempted from without, but not from within. In other words, someone can tempt God to go against his nature or his will, but he will not perform evil because he is not only good, but he is the thing that goodness is based on. Because his essence is the pattern in which every good thing is rooted there is nothing in God that would take the bait of temptation. Furthermore, b/c God is all-powerful over everything, it makes tempting him highly difficult. What do you give the God who has everything? What could he want to be other than "God"? Whatever it is, it would be a considerable step down.

Humans are different b/c our goodness is not like God's. Our goodness is derived from and patterned after something external (God's). We are intimate with goodness, and even created in goodness, but goodness is still separate and distinct from us. This kind of separation is necessary for choice. We can choose not to be good. Our choices take the bait of temptation, and we can thusly be tempted from within.

As far as free will and knowledge go, are you referring to the incident in the garden? There's two ways of looking at the garden story: 1) Be cool with God, but get no knowledge vs. be cool with the serpent's plan and get knowledge (via the brain-food of fruit!), or 2) Whether you're down with God or the serpent, you'll get knowledge, but the issue is HOW you'll get knowledge. I think the garden story reflects #2. The issue isn't whether or not God wanted Adam and Eve to know stuff; it was how they were going to know.

The prohibited fruit was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The Chinese proverb says, "If you want to know what wet is, don't ask a fish." That's how it was with goodness for Adam and Eve. They were meant to be acquainted with goodness the way a fish is with wetness: They were so immersed in it, and it is so essential to their existence that they took it for granted that this is the way things work. They were meant to know goodness through intimacy with it. However, they were meant to know evil through distance, and that could've been accomplished by just taking God's word for it. God never intended for us to know evil through experience.

A fish can come to know what wet is in two ways. The first way is just to swim around and live its little fish life. The second is to get caught by a fisherman and look back at the water. In the second instance the fish knows what wet is in a different way--by being separated from wetness. That's the way Adam and Eve chose to know good--by being separated from it. This is what distinguishes true knowledge from information. Knowledge in the ancient world was connected with intimacy. To know something meant you somehow embodied it. Information is different because it is knowledge irrespective of intimacy. Here, intimacy is not central to the acquisition of knowledge. When Adam and Eve chose to know goodness by being detached from it, and to know evil through an attachment to it, they became morally and spiritually suicidal. The issue in the garden isn't what you know, but how you know.

Edited by trublvr

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Libidinous Scourge

Thank you very much Trublvr. That was a really intelligent answer and has helped me understand that story a little better.

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thallium81

Satan exists. Every human has a part of him in his/her psychology. One of these fine days we will annihilate ourselves: good thing too, let the rest of the world get on with their lives.

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trublvr
Thank you very much Trublvr. That was a really intelligent answer and has helped me understand that story a little better.

Libidinous Scourge,

You're quite welcome. Great question.

--trublvr

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man_in_mudboots

If not for Satan, evil wouldn’t live…or would it?

i think evil wold exist, because of free choice, if it hadnt been Satan that had betrayed God, sooner or later some Angel would have, probably ending up to be the same as Satan himself.

First of all If Adam in Eve were created with any intelligence they wouldn’t have taken an apple from that forbidden tree....I mean if something is forbidden, either it is extremely dangerous, or just something someone doesn’t want us to have.

i agree that adam and eve is a fairy tale, albeit a useful one, but this statement doesnt make sense - i am sure you have intelligence, Mr. Kortef, that was proved by your excellent arguments in the first post of this thread, yet how many times have you done something forbidden? i know i have done it plenty times, and everybody else has too, hell, were just human. but we are still intelligent, yet here we are doing things forbidden that are forbidden obviously for our own good. Adam and eve were seduced by Satan, just as we have beed seduced, into thinking that their sin was OK, that we could always be forgiven later, it wouldnt bother God, we would be truly happy later, ect.

when people thought evil must come from an evil being, they thought about someone with the almighty power of God, but was evil instead.  They wanted the essence of evil to come from some who was evil, and that wouldn’t be God cause he is all good so it’s impossible for him to be related to evil.

thats brings up a hard point. God gave us free choice right? supposedly to see how much we really loved him, to see if we could keep ourselves from sinning and offending him. yet, he supposedly knew in advance who really loved him, who would sin, ect. so that brings us to the problem, why did he do it in the first place? if he knows how its all going to end up, its not much of a test, is it?

even more disturbing, if he created all things, and also knows the outcome of all things before they happen, then doesnt that mean we are all headed for either heaven or hell before we are created? that would suggest predestination. brings up alot of really scary questions for a christian there, eh?

anyway, i enjoyed this thread alot, Mr. Kortef. i predict that it will continue on well if it doesnt get too rowdy.

Edited by man_in_mudboots

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man_in_mudboots

sorry about two consecutive posts, but i couldnt pass this up.

It is true, that evil does NOT come from Satan, he is not responsible for all evils. We commit our own sin, with or without Satan involvement.

i agree. Satans job is simply to tempt.

To sum it up, the bible mentioned that Satan exists (if you believe in the bible anyway), but he is not the enemy of God.

in agreeance again. everything does, after all, end up serving as God's means, even Satan (and his evil), who is the creature through whom the test in my above post enters the world.

The book of Job portrays how Satan consulted God before his action.
i always thought Job was sort of fishy, but anyhow it just *proves* the above concept.

So if you meet him, just say hello and tell him that you are not interested in temptation.
laugh.gif Edited by man_in_mudboots

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trublvr

Man in Mudboots,

I fail to see how the Job story "proves" the theory that God and satan are cool with one another. As stated in a previous conversation with Psychic Penguin, the issues concerning satan in Job aren't the most clear-cut in the world. But it's quite a leap to say that what the two opening chapters of Job describe is some sort of relationship between God and satan. Also, if you want another Old Testament instance where satan is standing before God and speaking evil against another of God's servants, you can check out Zechariah chapter 3. God addresses satan most explicitly and reads him the riot act.

Also, satan means "adversary" in Hebrew, and this is how Hebrew theologians understood him. In fact, early Christians got their views on the devil/satan from their Hebrew predecessors. True, Job's initial chapters haven't been the easiest piece of Old Testament literature to interpret, even for Jewish scholars. However, many do believe satan to be an evil being whom God opposes and who opposes God.

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man_in_mudboots
I fail to see how the Job story "proves" the theory that God and satan are cool with one another. As stated in a previous conversation with Psychic Penguin, the issues concerning satan in Job aren't the most clear-cut in the world.

i dont mean prove, really, Mr. trublvr, thats just the only word i could think of. anyway, i meant that """"" for a christian"""""", the stories in Job are smooth with the idea that all things end up serving as God's means, even Satan and his evil. thats all. happy.gif do notice that i put the owrd proves in a set of astrisks. thumbsup.gif

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