Theories about ghosts...

[Aanica]

I think like in psychoanalysis, Freud's ideas were a good start, Jung's ideas refined them but still miss the mark, but are probably headed in the right direction. Ghosts seem to behave *too* much like we living people think a ghost should behave - they fit our gross understanding and primitive model too closely for their nature to be what the majority of people believe about ghosts. I believe ghost phenomena exist (as well as demon, alien etc) but I don't believe these things are much differentiated in reality, and while some appear to function more actively than simply being a psychic echo or etheric playback, I do not believe these things to be truly sentient with free will - I think they're activated and fueled by the percipient, with poltergeist cases as extreme examples.

I lean to this theory also especially with poltergeist, as in the Rosenheim Poltergeist when the participant left so did the events, That leads me to believe Freud and Jung may have the basis as you stated for excellent theories but in much need for further refinement.

[BorisTheSpider2]

this feels like you use this forum as daily thought outlet,

that would be me

[BorisTheSpider2]

... and while some appear to function more actively than simply being a psychic echo or etheric playback, I do not believe these things to be truly sentient with free will - I think they're activated and fueled by the percipient, with poltergeist cases as extreme examples.

telekinesis is a plausible explanation for poltergeist and seems to afflict adolescents in the throes of distinct physiological and psychological metamorphosis and considering the accelerated activity of the pituitary gland during this stage of life, it stands to reason that that there is a connection between puberty and "poltergeists" .

The proposition of haunting as residual is a widely debated theory, but the projected thought form idea is robust as well in the sense that this may be amplified by mass hypnosis in the case of * "Virgin Mary" apparition sightings etc and perhaps in seances in general. if you get a group of people sitting in a circle long enough thinking about conjuring up a spirit, the power of positive thinking may manifest itself in this fashion.

* this doesn't mean that I am convinced that all apparition sightings are mass hypnosis or projected though forms

[juste]

that would be me

Well I think you have a crush on someone here. Don't forget that we are just numerical entities. Now as the administrator stated, lets get back on topic.

[Aanica]

Well I think you have a crush on someone here. Don't forget that we are just numerical entities. Now as the administrator stated, lets get back on topic.

Why do you say this?

[juste]

Why do you say this?

Do you feel me...? There is nothing colder than web identities, well maybe a ghost

[BorisTheSpider2]

Well I think you have a crush on someone here.

yep Agent Mulder

Don't forget that we are just numerical entities.

I am reminded of this every time I receive a credit card bill

Now as the administrator stated, lets get back on topic.

agreed

[Aanica]

Do you feel me...? There is nothing colder than web identities, well maybe a ghost

No I don't...really, nothing there am I supposed to?

I would like to say maybe its like Freud stated a projected entity? That maybe the reason for the cold feelings as ghosts are known to suck all the energy out of life forces around them

[juste]

No I don't...really, nothing there am I supposed to?

I would like to say maybe its like Freud stated a projected entity? That maybe the reason for the cold feelings as ghosts are known to suck all the energy out of life forces around them

You know, as far as I respect Freud, his theories on the human behavior(nevrose, perversion, sublimation), I think he was biased when it came to explaining paranormal phenomenon even though this theory sounds elegant. The paradigme in psychology is that there is no such things as possesion, ghost, or any paranormal things affecting the human behavior, cause if there were, they could'nt cure it. We can call that arrogance, but still they cant accept phenomena that are out of their control, and that is totally rightful. So I think Freud came up with the better explaination in accordance with what he was instilled. As far as I'm concerned, I still believe ghosts have their own subjectivity and are independent in their actions.

Edited February 2, 2009 by juste detracté

[Aanica]

'juste detracté' date='Feb 2 2009, 04:14 PM' post='2726136']

You know, as far as I respect Freud, his theories on the human behavior(nevrose, perversion, sublimation), I think he was biased when it came to explaining paranormal phenomenon

What about this theory is biased ? How do you come to this conclusion?

even though this theory sounds elegant.

This is a brief synopsis of his theory,

The paradigm in psychology is that there is no such things as possession, ghost, or any paranormal things affecting the human behavior,

Not true, several of today's top psychologists deal exclusively in paranormal cases, Adam Christian Blai just one of many, Priests are trained in psychology to eliminate mental disorders first before deciding a paranormal approach is justified. Psychology is the basis of understanding the paranormal,its existence,what the human mind can produce/understand and project.

cause if there were, they couldn't cure it.

Not true..when paranormal problems are incurred most are resolved through help from a psychologist as I stated above.

We can call that arrogance, but still they cant accept phenomena that are out of their control,

This is not true, Psychologists deal with all sorts of psychosis induced trauma unfortunitly psychology of the human mind does not fit in one neat little box of explanation.

So I think Freud came up with the better explanation in accordance with what he was instilled.

What was he instilled with other than a great understanding of the human mind. His theories for his time are considerable and the basis of psychology today.

[juste]

Not true, several of today's top psychologists deal exclusively in paranormal cases, Adam Christian Blai just one of many, Priests are trained in psychology to eliminate mental disorders first before deciding a paranormal approach is justified. Psychology is the basis of understanding the paranormal,its existence,what the human mind can produce/understand and project.

You are talking about para-psychologists, which is regarded as a pseudo-soft science. I have friends who have studied in psychology, and thats what they were told regarding possesions.

Not true..when paranormal problems are incurred most are resolved through help from a psychologist as I stated above.

From what I know, this process goes backwards.

What was he instilled with other than a great understanding of the human mind. His theories for his time are considerable and the basis of psychology today.

I totally agree. He had a profound understanding of human nature. ghosts, on the other hand, were'nt quite up to his expertise.

p.s.:I rented an appartment once in which there had been murder, a girl had been drowned by her boyfriend in the bath. I did'nt know that during the time I lived there. One night, I just glanced over my shouder through the corridor to see the reflect of a blond girl in the mirror of the bathroom. I startled and went right away see what she was doing there. Of course there was no one in the bath, but I did see her and and rack my brain out for a while after that. I finally moved out 6 months later. it is only 1 year later that I found out that a girl had been killed in the bath where I had used to live...

This is the only paranormal experience that has ever happened to me

Explain me this phenomenon in freud's words, as I was'nt aware of anything at the time.

[Aanica]

The phrase "para" means alongside coined in 1889 by psychologist Max Dessoir,It was adopted by J.B. Rhine in the 1930s as a replacement for the term psychical research, this long established science has changed many times over the 130 years since it started. In the 1970s there was a surge in research in the universities across america, remember the Dorris Bither,

All the scientists that investigated this case were from UCLA’s Neuropsychiatric Institute, the term pseudoscience was introduced by other educators and some scientists who felt their colleagues had no scientific justification from research . The psychologists are very much degreed professionals, this not the soft science of yesterday anymore, with many sub-disciplines of psychology.

I have studied psychology for over 15 years and hold my first degree in this also. I have never been told this was not a worth while pursuit in all the years I have been doing this.

Just when you state "the process goes backward" how can a psychologist help someone who maybe disturbed and then that person have a paranormal problem? this is what you refer to as going "backwards"

As far as your encounter I could only guess just like you, maybe a residual type, as it seems a current theory to explain such when severe emotional trauma occurs, maybe Freud's theory of projection comes in to play.

[Blueguardian]

The main problem with the theory is that some ghosts clearly show some intelligence in real time, in the present, take hitchhiking ghosts for example they can climb into cars, trucks etc then disappear at a certain point. Whats even weirder is that they can sit in a seat and not float through it, which means that I have no idea how that works. They can pass through walls but, they don't go through seats when the car slows down or speeds up. Well I guess it could be subconscious, but I'm not really sure.

[juste]

The phrase "para" means alongside coined in 1889 by psychologist Max Dessoir,It was adopted by J.B. Rhine in the 1930s as a replacement for the term psychical research, this long established science has changed many times over the 130 years since it started. In the 1970s there was a surge in research in the universities across america, remember the Dorris Bither,

All the scientists that investigated this case were from UCLA’s Neuropsychiatric Institute, the term pseudoscience was introduced by other educators and some scientists who felt their colleagues had no scientific justification from research . The psychologists are very much degreed professionals, this not the soft science of yesterday anymore, with many sub-disciplines of psychology.

Thanks for the precision

Just when you state "the process goes backward" how can a psychologist help someone who maybe disturbed and then that person have a paranormal problem? this is what you refer to as going "backwards"

I meant that people usually go consult a psychologist or psychiatrist first because they think they are struck by some mental-illness, once they realize there is nothing the psychologist can't do about it, they turn over to some goshtbusters, mediums or priests.

As far as your encounter I could only guess just like you, maybe a residual type, as it seems a current theory to explain such when severe emotional trauma occurs, maybe Freud's theory of projection comes in to play.

What the hell is a residual type if it is not some part of the person's essence. Energy is'nt free in this world or the other.

Edited February 3, 2009 by juste detracté

[Aanica]

I meant that people usually go consult a psychologist or psychiatrist first because they think they are struck by some mental-illness, once they realize there is nothing the psychologist can't do about it, they turn over to some ghostbusters, mediums or priests.

Oh your opinion nothing actually factual...

What the hell is a residual type if it is not some part of the person's essence. Energy is'nt free in this world or the other.

I said guess, I don't know its your sighting...and who is charging for energy in the other world?..Saddam

[BorisTheSpider2]

and who is charging for energy in the other world?..Saddam

old habits are hard to break

[juste]

Oh your opinion nothing actually factual...

Opinion That's logical proceeding. People don't jump at paranormal conclusions at first. They will look over the rational hypothesis. I am wondering what kind of narcotic a psychiatrist will prescribe in case of residual type wandering around. Maybe he will be able to provide some help, by shutting your mind off and making you some kind of robot with some strong antipsychotics. That being said, we could as well consider all ghost sightings to be from schizophreniac people.

I said guess, I don't know its your sighting...and who is charging for energy in the other world?..Saddam

So you don't know, Freud can't explain that. Why would energy be free elsewhere? Did'nt you like the input of Jason? Why would a ghost be hungry if it can feed at will. We all seek energy, You are actually doing it. You seek a boost by interrogating me. This is one of a negative fashion to suck energy off one another. Don't worry, I am guilty of this vice as well. The other world is just another state of vibrations, the universal laws remain. energy is'nt free nowhere. All this stuff is proven mathematicly, if you want to understand what I am saying, usher yourself to the complex algebra and super-symetry. The univers is multi-dimensional. Ghosts belong to it as we do.

[Pauly Dangerously]

Opinion That's logical proceeding. People don't jump at paranormal conclusions at first. They will look over the rational hypothesis. I am wondering what kind of narcotic a psychiatrist will prescribe in case of residual type wandering around. Maybe he will be able to provide some help, by shutting your mind off and making you some kind of robot with some strong antipsychotics. That being said, we could as well consider all ghost sightings to be from schizophreniac people.

So you don't know, Freud can't explain that. Why would energy be free elsewhere? Did'nt you like the input of Jason? Why would a ghost be hungry if it can feed at will. We all seek energy, You are actually doing it. You seek a boost by interrogating me. This is one of a negative fashion to suck energy off one another. Don't worry, I am guilty of this vice as well. The other world is just another state of vibrations, the universal laws remain. energy is'nt free nowhere. All this stuff is proven mathematicly, if you want to understand what I am saying, usher yourself to the complex algebra and super-symetry. The univers is multi-dimensional. Ghosts belong to it as we do.

Could you cite some resources for this theory?

[juste]

Could you cite some resources for this theory?

here is a good vulgarisation of the hyperdimension.

:http://blazelabs.com/f-u-hds.asp

I will try to find a link in regard to a specific imaginary number z↔z²+c│ z=a+bi, that allows to multiply points in two dimension planes. The graphic obtained with the recursion formula on the complex plan is actually my screen picture. It is a fractal that is quite mind bending. Giving a glimpse of how the universe is structured.

I was in a math club in 05 and 06. I studied a lot of these patterns, that strangely show golden ratio's... tahts why I don't have link right now, but if you are really interseted, i will take the time to look for it.

I don't think I will soon find a link that correlate explicitely ghosts with other planes of dimensions mathematicely. No physicist will commit himself on this field... You can make that out by yourself though if you believe in ghosts.

Edited February 3, 2009 by juste detracté

[BorisTheSpider2]

here is a good vulgarisation of the hyperdimension.

:http://blazelabs.com/f-u-hds.asp

I will try to find a link in regard to a specific imaginary number z↔z²+c│ z=a+bi, that allows to multiply points in two dimension planes. The graphic obtained with the recursion formula on the complex plan is actually my screen picture. It is a fractal that is quite mind bending. Giving a glimpse of how the universe is structured.

I was in a math club in 05 and 06. I studied a lot of these patterns, that strangely show golden ratio's... tahts why I don't have link right now, but if you are really interseted, i will take the time to look for it.

I don't think I will soon find a link that correlate explicitely ghosts with other planes of dimensions mathematicely. No physicist will commit himself on this field... You can make that out by yourself though if you believe in ghosts.

but what about The String Theory that is founded on a "membrane" hypothesis ?

does this not also support the multi dimensionality thesis and also collaborate the "ghosts exist on other planes of dimension" contention stated above? and shouldn't this be granted the same amount of credence that "graphics obtained with the recursion formula" is awarded?

btw I'm just curious, and not challenging anyone to a protracted debate here because I have use a calculator just to balance my checkbook

Edited February 3, 2009 by BorisTheSpider2

[Pauly Dangerously]

here is a good vulgarisation of the hyperdimension.

:http://blazelabs.com/f-u-hds.asp

I will try to find a link in regard to a specific imaginary number z↔z²+c│ z=a+bi, that allows to multiply points in two dimension planes. The graphic obtained with the recursion formula on the complex plan is actually my screen picture. It is a fractal that is quite mind bending. Giving a glimpse of how the universe is structured.

I was in a math club in 05 and 06. I studied a lot of these patterns, that strangely show golden ratio's... tahts why I don't have link right now, but if you are really interseted, i will take the time to look for it.

I don't think I will soon find a link that correlate explicitely ghosts with other planes of dimensions mathematicely. No physicist will commit himself on this field... You can make that out by yourself though if you believe in ghosts.

I have to say first off that that was a good attempt. However "Engineer" Xavier Borg, (why, by the way, does he sign all his documents that way?) is using mathematical jargon to conceal the fact that his science is very bad. That whole link is based on the theory that conventional physics is wrong, and we have to do away with what is understood to be accepted science to accept his theory. He postulates that particals don't exist and all matter is just differing electromagnetic wavelengths. All this points back to his theory that there is some infinitely small center of the universe that everything revolves around. He has no basis for this theory other than that conventional science is wrong, and he is right. He also postulates that numerical proofs can't be accepted. This is just bad science. Random facts collected together to try to simulate logic.

[juste]

I have to say first off that that was a good attempt. However "Engineer" Xavier Borg, (why, by the way, does he sign all his documents that way?) is using mathematical jargon to conceal the fact that his science is very bad. That whole link is based on the theory that conventional physics is wrong, and we have to do away with what is understood to be accepted science to accept his theory. He postulates that particals don't exist and all matter is just differing electromagnetic wavelengths. All this points back to his theory that there is some infinitely small center of the universe that everything revolves around. He has no basis for this theory other than that conventional science is wrong, and he is right. He also postulates that numerical proofs can't be accepted. This is just bad science. Random facts collected together to try to simulate logic.

ok well, Ill get some stephen hawking's link. He is one of the prominant who supports this theory. Don't forget that this is based off quantum mechanic. It seems to overstep classical physic laws, I would say it is more of an extension.

Edited February 3, 2009 by juste detracté

[Mind_n_Motion]

Ghosts.

Well....I guess for me personally, because of my own personal beliefs and my own personal experiences I believe ghosts are just people who have died that refuse to move on to any higher level of existence, be it reincarnation, heaven, hell or even purgatory. But that's just me. I'm a spiritual person, not a religous one, but a spiritual one and I have had many many encounters with spirits or people (as I simply see them) that haven't moved on. I wasn't raised to believe in ghosts and I sure as hell didn't go looking for them but growing up I learned quickly there was more to this world that most couldn't see. In all honestly I would love to believe I'm mad, rationally that would make sense. I would love to take my experiences where I'm say at the mall and I notice someone who just catches my attention and I watch them as they enter a store, go to walk past it's window front but never do and say it's all just in my mind. That would be great, but when I'm with other people and they experience instances like that as well without me saying a word I have to assume my own madness isn't responsible.

I'm all for believing some ghosts/hauntings are due to rips in dimensions/space/time, but in personally having spoken to individuals who have passed (mad as I know it sounds) I still get the same answer. They are simply just not ready to move on yet. They know there is another place of existence but this world they know, there life they remember and they don't want to forget or move on either cause they are scared or they just aren't ready yet.

[juste]

Ok, Actually I found many links backing up the input I brought here regarding hyperdimension, string theory, quantum physic, supersymmetry, however that would be irrelevant to this thread as they are out of context, long, and even boring. I am going to only post this link as it explains shortly my view over the diferent planes of existence (ghosts), I don't care what you will think of it, cause there are no references.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/6631965/What-Happens-After-Death

This is what I am geeting at, and you can do all the research you want over hyperspace, should you feel it makes sense. The theories are out there.

P.S. I had posted the wrong link at first

Edited February 3, 2009 by juste detracté

[Aanica]

I have to say first off that that was a good attempt. However "Engineer" Xavier Borg, (why, by the way, does he sign all his documents that way?) is using mathematical jargon to conceal the fact that his science is very bad. That whole link is based on the theory that conventional physics is wrong, and we have to do away with what is understood to be accepted science to accept his theory. He postulates that particals don't exist and all matter is just differing electromagnetic wavelengths. All this points back to his theory that there is some infinitely small center of the universe that everything revolves around. He has no basis for this theory other than that conventional science is wrong, and he is right. He also postulates that numerical proofs can't be accepted. This is just bad science. Random facts collected together to try to simulate logic.

Got to hand it to you Paul, I thought the same but was going to let it stand and see what came out...