Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
chaosdarksoulz

A greater entity then "God"?

41 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Darklight

I understand but care to expand a little more on your definition and explain how God/Allah can be everlasting with no origin or end?

Salaam (Peace)

I believe the "origin" [beginning] and "end" are aspects of Time, which I believe to be created, just as much as Space is created - both according to our perception, measurements. I believe The Creator is the Source of time, "when" and "where" not really being applicable, which means that the phrase "when 'god' created" cannot be taken literally, I mean it can be, but not by me.

For me the word "Everlasting" implies timelessness, but the the word could be interpreted to simply mean some"thing" that just outlasts everything else, but thats not how I take it.

Edited by Darklight

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Omnaka

I understand but care to expand a little more on your definition and explain how God/Allah can be everlasting with no origin or end?

I just did, I know you were not asking me, But I just explaind it is the love between all which makes all and is eternal.

Maybe the concept, or definition of God needs to be defined a little better by any who Believe.

The love is what binds Us to God, and what binds God to us, all the way down to the molecular structures which make up what we call Matter, Yes this includes Animals, but not limited to the Universe Od dimention.

Or what is considdered This dimention.

Love Omnaka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kratos
"God"...

Many things are synonymous with that word such as, religion, mankind, heaven, angels, bible, creation and so forth.

When ever we hear the word "God" we automatically process this image, this perception of an ultimate being to whom all things are inferior to and an entity to who's laws we must abide by.

We all have our thoughts and views of what "God" is, a being or source of energy or maybe even just a fragment of our imagination presented to the world in the form of "belief" or "religion".

Maybe "God" is even just a false recognition by mankind to make them selves feel important, to give them selves a purpose, a reason or just hope.

Yet some do not even acknowledge the existence of "God" or a "God" and some believe in more than one.

Regardless what the majority accept or not there are many questions for every branch of faith in regards to their "God".

And today I have a question of my own, not for a certain faith or "God" but to everyone, believer or not.

One of the widely accepted qualities of "God" is, that he/she has no beginning.

That they are eternal, everlasting and have no need for anything for they are self sufficient...

But I have trouble comprehending how a...being can be, without any sort of intervention from another source, no aid or help, I cannot possibly comprehend how a being, in those said conditions, can simply be...

With no beginning or end, just simply be, it is beyond human comprehension, so I ask is "God" truly everlasting?

Was he always there? With no beginning?

Just close your eyes for a second, think of a black, pitch black scenery...

And now imagine a red apple appear in the centre...

Now go back to the point where it was all black with no red apple, can you remember the precise point where you added the apple to that image in your head?

Now imagine that same apple, just there in there centre, not moving, just there, it wont budge, it wont fade away or nothing but will just remain there forever, but who or what put that apple there?

How can it not have an end? Why wont it cease to exist?

How did it get there in the first place?

Regardless the power and greatness it holds it could not have created itself from nothing and even if it some how did then it means it was self created at "some precise point" or was it just there?...without a beginning.

Who decides, who gave that power to god, who chose that entity, why would something have no beginning?

It is beyond impossible, no mater how you look at it, no matter how miraculous or omnipotent "God" is, "God" could not have just been then there for ever, there had to be some point of origin.

Well at least that's how I contemplate it, what do you think?

(before people start criticizing my comparison of god to an apple, that apple was meant to represent "God", not a analogy)

Interesting topic. What I have found so far on these forums that most people have the wrong concept of God. A true God is omnipresent, al knowing, all hearing, almighty, self sufficient, one, with no begining or end. If such god exists, there is no possibility of anything superior, because there is nothing else like him.

God did not come from nothing, this universe he created came from nothing as we did, god is not created, to say so would mean he is a false god. Creation suggests a begining thus cannot applied to god.

The concepts of eternity and other attributes of god are physically beyond our comprehension, but we can still understand them, for example. Eternity for humans to understand or experience is impossible, eternity to us means forever, which enables us to understand the attribute, which belongs to God.

A true god has no point of origin, he is the only thing which is absolute, there rest are governed by the laws of creation, physics, time and space. As someone else has already accurately mentioned that creation is governed by all the above, but god operates outside of time and space, but he has power over all his creation.

Your confusing the creation of the universe and us from nothing with GOd, a true god need not be created nor die.....

Your supporting your argument with the theory of the big bang.

1. The big bang is a widely accepted concept but not entirely accepted by everyone meaning it is still a theory although it has been proven that matter can be created from nothing through study of physics but we have no experience in big bangs, we haven't seen a big bang or experienced one in history so we can only assume theories.

2. Even if the big bang did really occur then what caused it was the collision of particles, hence forth it had a cause, the collision, more to point there were particles existing before the big bang.

And I also ask you, what was there before the big bang? Did "God" cause the big bang? Did "God" suddenly decide to show him self after a random collision of particles created the universe?

The bigbang is a theory, but accepted as fact, due to the overwhelming evidence. You say we have no experience in bigbangs, we do. We actually have observed, via hubble and the background noise and radaition still exists from the big bang, we can track back to the point of singualirty almost equal to 0 but not beyond this. Probably because before it there was nothing. So the bigbang is the accepted theory. Based on the big bang, time and space came in to existence due to the big bang. Therefore the universe had a begining and will also end.

You say the big bang was caused by particales colliding, is incorrect. The particles colliding was a result of the bigbang, not the cause. We dont know what caused the point of singularity, within which all matter etc came from, something caused it and heated it up so much that the universe was cleft assunder so to speak, to form the universe we know today.

Kratos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blood_Sacrifice
My belief is that Allah ("god"?) is not an entity, spirit, being, mind, energy, consciousness, or the collective all, or the boundless void.

Salaam (Peace)

I believe the "origin" [beginning] and "end" are aspects of Time, which I believe to be created, just as much as Space is created - both according to our perception, measurements. I believe The Creator is the Source of time, "when" and "where" not really being applicable, which means that the phrase "when 'god' created" cannot be taken literally, I mean it can be, but not by me.

For me the word "Everlasting" implies timelessness, but the the word could be interpreted to simply mean some"thing" that just outlasts everything else, but thats not how I take it.

Thanks...I liked what you have just said....

Interesting topic. What I have found so far on these forums that most people have the wrong concept of God. A true God is omnipresent, al knowing, all hearing, almighty, self sufficient, one, with no begining or end. If such god exists, there is no possibility of anything superior, because there is nothing else like him.

God did not come from nothing, this universe he created came from nothing as we did, god is not created, to say so would mean he is a false god. Creation suggests a begining thus cannot applied to god.

The concepts of eternity and other attributes of god are physically beyond our comprehension, but we can still understand them, for example. Eternity for humans to understand or experience is impossible, eternity to us means forever, which enables us to understand the attribute, which belongs to God.

A true god has no point of origin, he is the only thing which is absolute, there rest are governed by the laws of creation, physics, time and space. As someone else has already accurately mentioned that creation is governed by all the above, but god operates outside of time and space, but he has power over all his creation.

Your confusing the creation of the universe and us from nothing with GOd, a true god need not be created nor die.....

The bigbang is a theory, but accepted as fact, due to the overwhelming evidence. You say we have no experience in bigbangs, we do. We actually have observed, via hubble and the background noise and radaition still exists from the big bang, we can track back to the point of singualirty almost equal to 0 but not beyond this. Probably because before it there was nothing. So the bigbang is the accepted theory. Based on the big bang, time and space came in to existence due to the big bang. Therefore the universe had a begining and will also end.

You say the big bang was caused by particales colliding, is incorrect. The particles colliding was a result of the bigbang, not the cause. We dont know what caused the point of singularity, within which all matter etc came from, something caused it and heated it up so much that the universe was cleft assunder so to speak, to form the universe we know today.

Kratos

Thank you so much for backing up!! Were you refering to me when u said that dark red statement ??

Also , I loved the purple statement cause I was a bit unsusre about that matter...

Labib

Edited by SEEKER_of_Hades

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chaosdarksoulz
Interesting topic. What I have found so far on these forums that most people have the wrong concept of God. A true God is omnipresent, al knowing, all hearing, almighty, self sufficient, one, with no begining or end. If such god exists, there is no possibility of anything superior, because there is nothing else like him.

God did not come from nothing, this universe he created came from nothing as we did, god is not created, to say so would mean he is a false god. Creation suggests a begining thus cannot applied to god.

The concepts of eternity and other attributes of god are physically beyond our comprehension, but we can still understand them, for example. Eternity for humans to understand or experience is impossible, eternity to us means forever, which enables us to understand the attribute, which belongs to God.

A true god has no point of origin, he is the only thing which is absolute, there rest are governed by the laws of creation, physics, time and space. As someone else has already accurately mentioned that creation is governed by all the above, but god operates outside of time and space, but he has power over all his creation.

Your confusing the creation of the universe and us from nothing with GOd, a true god need not be created nor die.....

All you have done is explain the qualities of a true "God", but u haven't explained how a true "God" can possibly be without origin ot beginning.

Thanks anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blood_Sacrifice
All you have done is explain the qualities of a true "God", but u haven't explained how a true "God" can possibly be without origin ot beginning.

Thanks anyway.

**sigh**

I guess you're not getting the concept of Big Bang properly....that is the reason why you havent understood my post, didn't answer the last post of mine where I arfued with your points, neither the post of him...

In short, the term "beginning" is used when something exists INSIDE the dimension of time, that is the reason everything this world had to offer (the apple you gave as an example...) has a 'beginning'. But God (or the FIRST UNCAUSED CAUSE) exists outside the dimension of time, hence the term 'beginning' can't be used for Him. He doesn't have a beginning because the state where he exists is TIMELESS.

Do you have a beginning? Yes you do. Why? Because you livce inside this universe which is governed by time. Do i have a beginning? Yes, for the same reason. Now, if the concept of TIMEwas to be removed from this world and wer would have been living in a state known as 'eternity' (timelessness) we wouldn't have 'beginning' or 'ending' either. Cause the word 'beginning' ,'ending' etc are related with TIME. If time doesn't exist there CANNOT be any 'beginning'.

Edited by SEEKER_of_Hades

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kratos
All you have done is explain the qualities of a true "God", but u haven't explained how a true "God" can possibly be without origin ot beginning.

Thanks anyway.

A true god has no point of origin, he is absolute, no start no end. Anything not fitting this is a false god. The qualities or the attributes of god are there so we can understand his nature, because as creation we are limited physically and mentally.

For example, if you try and picture god, it will be false, because as creation we can only relate to creation and therefore we will compare him to something from creation. Like a white bearded man in renaissence paintings, or a man god. Anything you or i compare or liken him to as an image will be incorrect due to our limited capacity.

The reason a true god has no begining or end is because that a true attribute of a true god, he cannot be begotten nor deos he beget. Finally there is nothing like him.

Kratos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Blood_Sacrifice
A true god has no point of origin, he is absolute, no start no end. Anything not fitting this is a false god. The qualities or the attributes of god are there so we can understand his nature, because as creation we are limited physically and mentally.

For example, if you try and picture god, it will be false, because as creation we can only relate to creation and therefore we will compare him to something from creation. Like a white bearded man in renaissence paintings, or a man god. Anything you or i compare or liken him to as an image will be incorrect due to our limited capacity.

The reason a true god has no begining or end is because that a true attribute of a true god, he cannot be begotten nor deos he beget. Finally there is nothing like him.

Kratos.

Nice reply...

Labib

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chaosdarksoulz
A true god has no point of origin, he is absolute, no start no end. Anything not fitting this is a false god. The qualities or the attributes of god are there so we can understand his nature, because as creation we are limited physically and mentally.

For example, if you try and picture god, it will be false, because as creation we can only relate to creation and therefore we will compare him to something from creation. Like a white bearded man in renaissence paintings, or a man god. Anything you or i compare or liken him to as an image will be incorrect due to our limited capacity.

The reason a true god has no begining or end is because that a true attribute of a true god, he cannot be begotten nor deos he beget. Finally there is nothing like him.

Kratos.

understood.

But just like you say that humans create an image of "God" as a man with a white beard becaise of our incapabilty to comprehend, similarly you are perceiving the "True God" to have those said qualities that make him the ultimate being, the infinite entity who was not begotten nor begets however that conception of "God" is just as credible as someone else's conception of "God" being a white man with a beard.

The conception of a True "God" is just as plausible as the one i may believe in who has many errors and faults and is not omnipotent.

I mean we haven't seen, heard or touched either "God" so with that being said i assume its safe to say that the True "God" is everlasting and has no beginning in the form of "belief"?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kratos

understood.

But just like you say that humans create an image of "God" as a man with a white beard becaise of our incapabilty to comprehend, similarly you are perceiving the "True God" to have those said qualities that make him the ultimate being, the infinite entity who was not begotten nor begets however that conception of "God" is just as credible as someone else's conception of "God" being a white man with a beard.

The conception of a True "God" is just as plausible as the one i may believe in who has many errors and faults and is not omnipotent.

I mean we haven't seen, heard or touched either "God" so with that being said i assume its safe to say that the True "God" is everlasting and has no beginning in the form of "belief"?

I understand what you are saying. However, images of god that we conjure up in mind are related to creation, and creation can never become the creator and vica versa. Therefore all our visual comparisons of god are false, because they relate to creation. The reason a white beared god is not considered a true god is because it has human traits, traits of creation, thus rendering it limited in capacity. Thus is not a true god.

You say a belief in a god riddled with mistakes and errors can be a true god, not in my humble opinion, because, God is perfection. We are limited, thats why we make mistakes, errors and contradictions. A true all knowing god cannot make mistakes, that would render him useless as something that knows everything, because mistakes, errors etc indicate a weakness in our capacity and a true god has no weakness.

A true god is everlasting, no start or end. Is this based on belief, yes and no. Rationally and logically it makes sense, element of faith is needed. As for knowing god or touched him or spoken to him is a different matter. Relgious people will tell you that god speaks to them, directly, via revelation etc. If this is the case then it should be testable and verifiable. if i said i speak to god, then surely gods words coming out of my mouth would be perfection, and the content may contain knowledge of the unseen verifiable then or in the future. If this cannot be met, then its not god your talking to.

As for revelation and books, I believe they are all gods words, some have been tampered with and only one has not. Those who claim they book is directly from god ought to be able to prove it, as this is our right to ask of God, prove your existence etc. But god is not going to come directly infront of you as he is not goverend by time or space, only we are, for him all this has happened and cleared up and finished with, its just that we are still living through it all, as we are goverened by time and space, which are also his creations.

The notion of a true god being what I have said, is based on texts, logic, rational and science. The latter does not dismiss the existence of god, but dismisses false gods, such as man gods, as we know our nature and its limitiations etc.

Kratos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
chaosdarksoulz
I understand what you are saying. However, images of god that we conjure up in mind are related to creation, and creation can never become the creator and vica versa. Therefore all our visual comparisons of god are false, because they relate to creation. The reason a white beared god is not considered a true god is because it has human traits, traits of creation, thus rendering it limited in capacity. Thus is not a true god.

I didn't necessarily mean "God" was a man with white beard, i was merely using it as an example in the broader sense that humans have their own perception of "God" and each individuals perception is just as credible as the idea you put forward earlier of a "True God"

You say a belief in a god riddled with mistakes and errors can be a true god, not in my humble opinion, because, God is perfection. We are limited, thats why we make mistakes, errors and contradictions. A true all knowing god cannot make mistakes, that would render him useless as something that knows everything, because mistakes, errors etc indicate a weakness in our capacity and a true god has no weakness.

Again you have misread my post.

I was not neaning to say that a "God" with flaws can be a "True God" but what i meant in fact was that my belief in a "God" with imperfection, that very "God" that i believe in, is just as likely to either exist (or not exist) with the same probabilty as a "True God".

A true god is everlasting, no start or end. Is this based on belief, yes and no. Rationally and logically it makes sense, element of faith is needed. As for knowing god or touched him or spoken to him is a different matter. Relgious people will tell you that god speaks to them, directly, via revelation etc. If this is the case then it should be testable and verifiable. if i said i speak to god, then surely gods words coming out of my mouth would be perfection, and the content may contain knowledge of the unseen verifiable then or in the future. If this cannot be met, then its not god your talking to.

Like i have stated in my previous posts, until we can put "God" on a science lab and run scientific tests on him or put him on trial in a court and question him, we don't have any genuine source of proof that we can produce facts from.

As for revelation and books, I believe they are all gods words, some have been tampered with and only one has not. Those who claim they book is directly from god ought to be able to prove it, as this is our right to ask of God, prove your existence etc. But god is not going to come directly infront of you as he is not goverend by time or space, only we are, for him all this has happened and cleared up and finished with, its just that we are still living through it all, as we are goverened by time and space, which are also his creations.

Refer to my last comment.

The notion of a true god being what I have said, is based on texts, logic, rational and science. The latter does not dismiss the existence of god, but dismisses false gods, such as man gods, as we know our nature and its limitiations etc.

Kratos

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker

If you acknowledge (as i do) that the entity humans know as god is a real physical being , then yes it is probably not everlasting. It may have evolved with, or from, the first evolutionary change of the universe in the big bang, or sometime since then. It may be simply a local entity in our part of the universe and one of many other similar entities. It may be a being (race of beings) which was uplifted to god hood through education and nurture, by an earlier god like race or entity. Humans may, in a relatively short time, become one more link in the chain ,if they survive and mature "spiritually" enough, so that in future millenia we interact with, and attempt to uplift, (and perhaps even create) sapient beings, just as god has done with/for us.

Given a real physical god, all these things are possible. But irrelevent, really, to the physical relationship which exists between humans and god, and also to how we respond to his presence.

Edited by Mr Walker

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
Dying Seraph

"A god is a creation, not a creator." -Jonny Wonny

Care to elaborate?

Though I cannot speack for Jonny Wonny this is what I gather he is saying from the statement. There is no real God. Man created God for hope, order, communion with our brethren, scapegoat, faith in a better tomarrow, peace, scare tactic, etc. Whatever the reason I believe that Jonny Wonny is saying that there is no god. Men created this idea of some divine creator and taker.

In a sense I agree that these Christian,Catholic,Muslim,Satanic,Pagan,Celtic, etc. God/s were created by our minds to physically be able to appreciate and acknolwedge them. Hence the cross and images of saints, and pentacles, and Baphomet, and images of a bleeding Jesus and what not along with God. A way to somehow identify or be closer to God somehow. I believe that many believe there is more than what wee can see, but since we cannot see it, we need an image as a reminder. Hope any of this makes sense.

What I am sure of is that I am sacred (as we all our) and my own God.

:devil:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
mako
A greater entity ??? no one knows..... could be

Good point Lt, the Gnostic Christians believed that Jewish god was an inferior god, the result of “immaculate conception” of the Aeon Sophia (near as I can understand their beliefs an Aeon was the pure undiluted thoughts of the Creator, so strong that they achieved life and minor godhood in their own right). This inferior god (called the Demiurge) stole part of the essence/power of his mother Sophia and used that power to create the material world. A creation that was flawed and inferior, just as its creator was. So by their beliefs (and there is evidence that they were the one of the first, if not the first, Christian groups), yes there is a superior god to the god of this world.

Kratos is correct in my opinion of what “God” is and that there (by the simple definition assigned to god) can be none superior to him. :yes:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3rd rock resident alien

Your Star. The Sun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Omnaka
Your Star. The Sun.

My God, Father and Mother can go anywhere, To other worlds, Galaxies, Universes and dimentions, Can the sun do that too? All apart of infinate spirit, Not limited by the Gravitational pull which keeps our plannets in synch.

Love Omnaka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.