Alien abduction

[thefinalfrontier]

You silly boy is that how you judge debate pushing the spell button, my oh my..

All I can see coming from you is a bunch a name calling and not much of a debate at that, Simply your opinion and thats all you have and opinions are not even a dime a dozen anymore,,, And BOY?? A 50 year old boy ,,

[War Eagle]

Moses was abducted by Aliens on the Mount...

I'm guessing that's why he came back down 40 days later totally aged and Grey.

[xris]

All I can see coming from you is a bunch a name calling and not much of a debate at that, Simply your opinion and thats all you have and opinions are not even a dime a dozen anymore,,, And BOY?? A 50 year old boy ,,

Like a pack of wolf cubs still sucking on their mummy , plenty of bottle while their huddled together with their strange named friends telling me i should grow up..oh my oh my..stay in the same company as you lot, for as long as you sad lads no way Jose..bye bye boys..

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Like a pack of wolf cubs still sucking on their mummy , plenty of bottle while their huddled together with their strange named friends telling me i should grow up..oh my oh my..stay in the same company as you lot, for as long as you sad lads no way Jose..bye bye boys..

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[chaoszerg]

Moses was abducted by Aliens on the Mount...

I'm guessing that's why he came back down 40 days later totally aged and Grey.

If that was intended as a pun you must be banished.

[thefinalfrontier]

Like a pack of wolf cubs still sucking on their mummy , plenty of bottle while their huddled together with their strange named friends telling me i should grow up..oh my oh my..stay in the same company as you lot, for as long as you sad lads no way Jose..bye bye boys..

If you was capable of thought you would be dangerous..

You know something fella?? Your insults and name calling is getting to be a bit much and instead of pushing the spell button im about to push the report button, Stop your insults and grow up a little bit,

And dont let the door hit your backside when ya go ok,,

Edited February 28, 2009 by thefinalfrontier

[chaoszerg]

You know something fella?? Your insults and name calling is getting to be a bit much and instead of pushing the spell button im about to push the report button, Stop your insults and grow up a little bit,

And dont let the door hit your backside when ya go ok,,

I have just reported it.

Maybe we can get back to abduction instead of people pretending to be sophisticated debaters lol...................... ....................................... because I will lose.....but I play a mean game of tiddly winks.

Anyway as I said earlier I think it is more to do with imagination than actual alien visitation because the mind is a powerful thing and also people sometimes just lie for the heck of it, but im not saying all people are lying some may actually believe they have been abducted by alf.

[Fluffybunny]

Okay...well, I think now would be a great time for everyone to get back on topic and to please avoid the personal fighting. Everyone take a deep breath and step back from the keyboard for a moment...grab a coffee...come back to the discussion when the pulse is back down to normal...Thank you.

Xris; read the PM coming your way.

[chaoszerg]

Okay...well, I think now would be a great time for everyone to get back on topic and to please avoid the personal fighting. Everyone take a deep breath and step back from the keyboard for a moment...grab a coffee...come back to the discussion when the pulse is back down to normal...Thank you.

Xris; read the PM coming your way.

I challenge you to a game of tiddly winks.

Anyway back on topic what happened to all those supposed chips they used to pull out of abductees, have the aliens stopped putting them in people all of a sudden. I don't hear much about little chips being pulled out of alien abductees any more. And have any abductees tried keeping a pet dog or something in the room with them while they sleep has any of them tried that.

[thefinalfrontier]

Okay...well, I think now would be a great time for everyone to get back on topic and to please avoid the personal fighting. Everyone take a deep breath and step back from the keyboard for a moment...grab a coffee...come back to the discussion when the pulse is back down to normal...Thank you.

Xris; read the PM coming your way.

Great idea, Back on topic,,

Regards;

TFF

[Bill Hill]

If you tried a eeenny weeeny bit you could spell too,

It is Realize NOT Realise,

I could care less about your so called debate but name calling is uncalled for, Just shows your IQ is all,

Dude, realise is spelt with an s... it's the english way.

The only people who use 'z' in the middle of a word are Americans, Jews and er Greeks...

[thefinalfrontier]

I challenge you to a game of tiddly winks.

Anyway back on topic what happened to all those supposed chips they used to pull out of abductees, have the aliens stopped putting them in people all of a sudden. I don't hear much about little chips being pulled out of alien abductees any more. And have any abductees tried keeping a pet dog or something in the room with them while they sleep has any of them tried that.

Ill up your tiddly winks up to a game a chess,

As far as I last heard anything about the chip implants there was a doctor (im thinking Hynek?? someone correct me if im wrong) in California who was removing them and studying them, I seen this on ufo hunters so you can decide on credibility, But one of these chips was tested and it had a type of radio signal to it, Oh and also when they tried to remove the chip from the abductee it kept moving around and the doctor had a hard time grabbing it with his tweazers, I did see the operation on the tv show and it was moving around But God only knows how much of it was real,

Regards;

TFF

Edit to remove an S and insert a D,

Edited February 28, 2009 by thefinalfrontier

[thefinalfrontier]

Dude, realise is spelt with an s... it's the english way.

The only people who use 'z' in the middle of a word are Americans, Jews and er Greeks...

Well I guess im spelling it correctly then cos im full blooded American, Now wheres that durn alien abduction protection hat? Cant go out without it,

Regards;

TFF

[bee]

Dude, realise is spelt with an s... it's the english way.

The only people who use 'z' in the middle of a word are Americans, Jews and er Greeks...

Hey.....Bill Hill.....I'm going to be abducting you tonight.

Get yourself ready..........................................................

[thefinalfrontier]

Hey.....Bill Hill.....I'm going to be abducting you tonight.

Get yourself ready..........................................................

Better run for the hills man, By the look of that avatar your in BIG trouble,

Regards;

TFF

[Bill Hill]

Hey.....Bill Hill.....I'm going to be abducting you tonight.

Get yourself ready..........................................................

I look forward to it..

er on topic.. I think this covers all most of possibilities

Take it 'case by case'

you left one out. here, i fixed it for you:

1. mental illness- I would suspect this is the largest portion.

2. Liars- just like attention don't care if it is good or bad.

3. SP

4. Drug use

5. They were kidnapped by aliens

Something strange is going on. Like the UFO Phenomenon in general, the hard evidence which would convince all- is just out of reach....

[thefinalfrontier]

Something strange is going on. Like the UFO Phenomenon in general, the hard evidence which would convince all- is just out of reach....

Yes it is just out of reach but maybe someday soon all will know the truth one way or the other,

[Lt_Ripley]

If your questions came from a valid stand point they might valid but instead they come from the same gang of fools as the rest..

speaking of valid points .....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJUoiCdip7k

Penn & Teller (1/3) Alien Abduction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFiDfwsphVs

[fireinthesky]

I'd like to make some rebuttals to many of the different statements made to this post. First of all I'd like to say...Thankyou for the wide range of answers & issues brought up, it is a good thing because it helps a true researcher to work on some telling factors. Also there is neither black & white rebuttals to be made, there are problems with statements made by both pro & against. I'll begin

I personally think they are possible, but not probable...if I had the technology to

travel thousands of light years, its a safe bet that I also have the medical

technology to examine someone without physically removing them from wherever they

might be at the time. If the 'aliens' can walk through walls, then they clearly have

some form of matter manipulation technology (like star trek's transporter) and

therefore could easily insert implants without physical surgery.

If we can take detailed photography of Earth from satellites in orbit with our level

of technology, then just think what a more advanced species could do from that

distance.

Besides, ET could gain all the information they ever needed about human anatomy etc

from the interent, and they could probably download the whole internet in a matter

of nanoseconds.

Your statement first of all assumes that these entities are travelling from another planet, that is far far away. No one knows or can provide evidence of where these entities are from.

Secondly there are inconsistencies with the abduction scenario, that being is that aliens are reported to walk through walls yet they require surgery to place implants into the body, that kind of deception to me indicates that only one of the two things is possible.

Thirdly you say they are more advanced species, there is no evidence to indicate the entity themselves are any better evolved than us.

Fourthly you are quite right in saying that given there technological advancedness they could obtain all the details about human anatomy quickly, where does that point lead us, it means they are doing something other than checking out our basic anatomy, they would only need to abduct less than a 200 people on this planet if they were simply doing anatomy tests.

Just because something is in print doesn't make it somehow more sound/valid. For

example, David Icke has written books.

BTW, Dr. Sagan has been deceased for quite some time now. Wiki link

I never claimed that something in a book is automatically valid, I simply claimed that the material on case studies of genuine abduction, the evidence that is provided, the conclusions is available in text form, text being used in books. When you watch a documentary on the subject of ufos, apart from a rare few, less than a handful, you will find that it is dressed up & made to be more entertaining because it is a visual media item. UFO documentaries predominantly, apart from a rare few, are not what researchers should be basing there conclusions on or the correct media to be obtaining your facts from, especially upon further checking if the facts presented in the documentary cannot be accurately corroborated outside of that documentary.

Bubble wrap your entire floor then when those pesky aliens come by you hear them

coming and get to have a giggle at the pleasing popping sound.

Wow, you think abductees & those around them haven't tried things like this? The entity is in control in the abduction event, the abductee is powerless (apart from a few rare excellent abductions which haven't gone well for the entity). We do not know what we are dealing with. The entity is documented of being able to pilot craft that can perform impossible maneuevers by our present day available knowledge of aircraft capabilities, the entity is documented to being able to levitate people through solid matter. The entity is documented to be proficient in behaviour modification & domination. Where are they documented to do all this...Credible, physical evidence backed case studies by Derrel Sims, David M Jacobs, Budd Hopkins, Bob Pratt, Stanton T Friedman, J Allen Hynek & Raymond Fowler to name a few. Their books, their conferences, their correspondences are all just waiting for you to further investigate & see what you make of them. Abductees have tried putting aluminium foil under towels around their beds, video cameras in the bed posts, weapons by the door. Mixed success rate. The entities have also been documented to get in & out of a house that has stringent security systems. Why aren't the results of the mixed success rates showed on the news? Who would take the person seriously? Why would the person really want to risk the amount of negative attention & possible losses in employments, friends, respect & fiscality. For these results to be taken seriously when shown on the news it would require that the mass population understood a great deal already about alien abduction, which they do not, they can't be blamed for it, it's a convoluted & confusing subject, I know because I've been trying to make sense of it for a long time now.

A pro hypnotiser may be able to find out if these abductee- "Supernatural" power.

A pro hypnotiser is the last person you should let near a purported abductee. The only people qualified to use hypnosis as a memory retrieval option are "Professional Hypnotherapist's" & "Professional Forensic Hypnotherapists", hypnotists are not qualified to do this work, they do not know how to cleanly retrieve memories & they do not know how to retrieve data without damaging it. Only "Professional Hypnotherapist's" & "Professional Forensic Hypnotherapists" are qualified to even go near this area.

Also the entity do not have Supernatural powers, they are proficient at psychological warfarce i.e. wearing down your opponent & putting large deceptions into their mind to make them weaker & more fearful of your capabilities.

There is more than just those who support one side. I did not say read those who

believe in alien abduction, both sides have valid views that you should be read.Im

not advocating blind belief but an open minded debate on the subject.

On the issue of sides, skeptic & believer, do not automatically assume that being a skeptic gives you the prestige of all the current available scientific knowledge & superior credibility. Do not automatically assume that being a believer gives you the right to lump all of the skeptical into the category of narrow minded, scared fools. There is no proof in the public domain of the reality of alien abductions, there is very strong evidence i.e. items that strongly support the validity of such an occurrence.

The difference between proof & evidence is something to keep in mind. I disagree that both skeptic & believer have valid issues, I have seen believers who put out garbage & lies for cash even after experiencing genuine abduction phenomena (cough Strieber). I have also seen skeptics who are skeptical for the case of being skeptical & who by independent documentation & being caught in lies & false claims have been shown to do so (cough Klass, Sagan).

I also do not advocate blind belief, rather a detectives approach. Put the person making the claim through the hard yards by qualified individuals to do so who can ascertain & obtain the possibility validity or falsity of their claims. QUALIFIED INDIVIDUALS, not ufo addicts who don't know how to handle evidence or proper investigation (cough UFO Hunters).

Well I'm no expert on alien abductions but I have read the following books:

Abductions - Edith fiore. Abductions - John.E.Mack. Adductions - Ann Andrews & Jean

Ritchie. And Close encounters of the Fourth Kind - C.D.B Bryan.

None of these books prove anything.

None of those books ever made the claim that they did prove anything, all of them made the claim for the reader to be the judge, they presented the evidence & the case studies. I have problems with John E Mack not for his work with abductees but with his memory retrieval techniques.

I dont believe hypnotism brings out the truth every time.

I agree & so do the best of the researchers on the subject, there are plenty of fully conscious memory retrieval techniques that can be used to obtain memories. Hypnosis should be used as a last resort by "Professional Hypnotherapists" & "Professional Forensic Hypnotherapists", only they are qualified to do so.

I don't have a definitive conclusion, other then it's probably a mixture of things

going on. Alien abduction isn't proven whatsoever though.

A mixture of things...mental illness, psychosis, psychopathy, confidence men, quick cash are all important possibilities in the researchers attempt to ascertain whether the abductee is genuine or not. They need to investigate for criminal histories, talk to friends, acquaintances & loved ones of the people involved, find out if the person has ever tried quick case schemes before, if they have ever been in need of creating fanciful stories before. Find out if the person has any witnesses or credible physical evidence obtainable. I never & have never said Alien abduction is provable, only that strong physical evidence is available to support the possibility.

Some claimed abductees may be able to cheat the hypnotiser

Easy to do given that a hypnotiser is not qualified to do any of the work that has to do with abductees, only "professional hypnotherapists" & "professional forensic hypnotherapists" should be used.

No, wrong again. I've disagreed with the alien abduction scenario on the grounds of

lack of evidence.

Lack of evidence,

* 3392 physical trace cases in conjunction with credible witnesses purporting ufo sightings & abductions.

* Lies put out by Carl Sagan, Susan Blackmore & Susan A Clancy that were discovered by Stanton T Friedman & published in his paper available here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sf-clancy-abducted.html

* The 1961 Barney & Betty Hill abduction, the work by Marjorie fish that resulted & the pregnancy test used on Betty Hill during the abduction that exist on earth till 10 years after.

* The fact that the project bluebook threw out cases of unknowns into the insufficient evidence category after a year because there was only 1 witness no matter how credible or qualified that witness was.

* The Pilot UFO sightings collected by Richard Haines

* The Frederick Valentich disappearance

* The 1952 Washington UFO flap

* The government UFO lies put out about UFO's & abductions discovered by Stanton Friedman available here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sf-government-lies1.html

* The Project Mogul lie exposed by Aeronautical Engineer Robert Galganski available here: http://www.cufos.org/ros4.html

* The Allagash Four abductions that involved four separate people abducted who offered intricate corroborative details under separate interrogations & physical evidence.

* The 1992 Double Mass Abduction

* The Whitley Strieber Abduction case (his abductions were legitimate he has since however done things for money & scams with shady ufo individuals like Roger Leir & Sean David Morton.

* The Delphos Kansas Soil Flourescence

* The Linda Cortile Abduction in New York witnessed by independent third party witnesses from a separate location

* The Kathy Davis Abduction

* The 30 implants collected by Derrel Sims from 30 solidly documented & evidenced cases

* The Bob Pratt Brazilian Case Studies

* The MJ-12 Investigation done by Stanton Friedman available here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/mj12_update1.html

* The case work of Bill Chalker & his OZ files compiled in Australia

* The work of PARSEC - Psychotherapists Associated for the Research and the Study about EBE and their Contacts.

* The Phobos moon probe being shutdown & recording a long cigar shaped object 15 miles long with it's infrared film.

* J Allen Hynek's testimony that intelligence agencies paid him money to debunk legitimate ufo cases, he came clean after he had paid his kids through college.

* The James McDonald Congressional Testimony of 1969

* The Donald Keyhoe revelations in 1952 & the proof that he was not allowed to talk of certain ufo findings on the air indicated by a newsarticle prior to a tv interview.

* The Pascagoula abductions

* The Travis Walton abductions

* The Malmstrom AFB incident of 1964

* The Edwards AFB incident

* The Authenticated Trent Farm UFO Photographs

What physical evidence, and what witnesses!!?? There is none... as most of us know,

anecdotal is far from proof.

Like Carl Sagan used to say...

With all the millions of people claiming to have been abducted by aliens, Im

surprised their neighbors havent noticed.

So you can accurately call all of the above anecdotal, no witnesses, no physical evidence? Look carefully & see if that is accurate.

What qualifies Carl Sagan to offer anything to the alien abduction field, he's been caught in lies, he's not qualified to investigate or medically offer any insight on abductees, he ignores what he wishes. Why haven't the neighbours noticed? UFO's are capable of light spectrum manipulation, moving in & out of different light spectrums, meaning that while they physically disappear they turn invisible, Budd Hopkins specifically sights that with physical evidence obtained from abductees & also the DSP Satellite that has caught UFO movements & photographed there maneuvers.

implying evidence for alien abduction to provide irrefutable evidence

There's nothing implied about any of the evidence, call Ted Phillips, call Derrel Sims, call Stan Friedman, call Budd Hopkins to name a fewcheck there evidence out for yourself.

I've been getting a feeling just lately that a lot of this 'alien abduction' stuff

Try not to do your research with feelings

Better yet, become familiar with Sagan and other skeptics....see where that evidence

leads you. Are you as familiar with Sagan, Shermer, Randi, Steve Allen (he wrote a

great book on critical thinking called "Dumbth") and even Klass as you are with Mack

et al? To be truly open minded, to follow the evidence "wherever it takes you," you

must see both sides, not just the one side you agree with, or that confirms your

suspicions, hypotheses, and theories. Be intellectually honest, both with yourself

and everyone else. When you're wrong, admit it. Consider other options, and

continually question your own way of thinking.

What evidence specifically has Sagan offered to purport alien abduction isn't occurring? None of the individuals you mentioned got their hands dirty dealing & investigating with alien abduction.

To take Sagan's offerings, examine what he really offers, mockery & theories.

I don't trust the memory retrieval techniques of John Mack, he has done good work trying with abductees but his methods were unsound (to quote a famous movie).

To be a skeptic & accuse those who offer evidence of abduction as pseudoscience, be very certain that you can prove you yourself are not offering pseudoscience to debunk them.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/10...clancy.html is one opinion that

disputes the alien abductors claims.

Susan A Clancy is liar which is proven here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sf-clancy-abducted.html

When I've tried to confront her she won't return my emails or calls. She is also not a hard sciences doctor.

Fireinthesky...What do you think about my thoughts on teleportation experiments?

I think the movie "The Fly (1958) & The Fly(1986)" were very entertaining & thought provoking, beyond that I would lean more towards the notion of psychological warfare used by aliens as opposed to things like teleportation.

and I think your delusional. no determination ??? seems that would be the ones'

claiming to be abducted yet don't try to get any proof.

Ignorance is making excuses as to why they can't get any.

So you're purporting that the people affected by this phenomena don't try to obtain data to prove to themselves & their loved ones that they're not crazy? & I'm the delusional one?

You've heard of a controlled environment, in a science experiment, that is what occurs in abductions, it is a controlled environment, the rats & guinea pigs don't get the opportunity to take the doctors gloves home with them

Ignorance is accurately stated as you wrote it.

alot of persons who hypnotise lead a delusional or wishful subject ..........

missing time occurs naturally too ! one reason for example ? Under PTSD ,which

occures for various reasons .... abuse being the most prevalent. sporadic episodes

of missing time can happen during any time for someone with PTSD and you may have

PTSD and not be aware of it.

and what's the percentage of abuse ?? very high to say the least. couple that with

night terrors and delusional thinking = abduction.

then you get the nutters who thrive off this sort of crapola.

now , when people are taken in groups ? while driving ? ect..... more believable.

I agree with your statement about non qualified people leading people when they try to hypnotise them, hence as I've stated earlier only qualified professionals "Professional Hypnotherapists" & "Professional Forensic Hypnotherapists' are able to do this.

PTSD if often caused by missing time which would indicate to me, how could someone not suffering from an illness be affected by symptoms of that illness? The conclusions from that, they have the illness & are not aware of it or they do not have the illness. If they have the illness & are not aware of it then it resulted from a traumatic experience buried in their subconscious prior to their purported abduction, which would mean when they seek help that they would identify an earlier experience as the cause of their worries. However if the person refers to the period of missing time as the cause of the PTSD then that would indicate the missing time as the cause of the illness not the other way around. I won't argue percentages with you unless I have my facts & percentages in hands, however I won't speculate. Night terrors & delusions don't leave metallic dermally cocooned evidence in the frontal lobe cavity of your brain.

Focus on the nuts & you won't see the rest of the peanut butter.

you left one out. here, i fixed it for you:

1. mental illnes- I would suspect this is the largest portion.

2. Liars- just like attention don't care if it is good or bad.

3. SP

4. Drug use

5. They were kidnapped by aliens

A good laugh to ease the tension thank you :-)

I have read them. Alot of them. You know what they all share?hmmm. No evidence to

prove them. Just crazy tales. Boo ya.

See evidence listed above earlier

Why not? There is not much difference in this belief and Santa. Belief with no proof

is faith. Know what that is? Religion, but instead of god you choose aliens.

Rrrrrrrrrrrr...

Lets not hit below the belt here & claim there is no Santa Claus.

I myself don't really think people are being abducted by aliens I think it is the

mind a lot of the time playing tricks on people

I believe in the evidence, & the evidence indicates alien's play tricks on people (think Ben Linus)

If your questions came from a valid stand point they might valid but instead they

come from the same gang of fools as the rest..

If you want people to understand your point you'll have to be more specific & cite some evidences. Name calling will not help

the hard evidence which would convince all- is just out of reach

Proof is just out of reach, hard evidence is available. My understanding of hard evidence is physical evidence

Edited March 1, 2009 by fireinthesky

[TSS]

Well I'm no expert on alien abductions but I have read the following books:

Abductions - Edith fiore. Abductions - John.E.Mack. Adductions - Ann Andrews & Jean

Ritchie. And Close encounters of the Fourth Kind - C.D.B Bryan.

None of these books prove anything.

None of those books ever made the claim that they did prove anything, all of them made the claim for the reader to be the judge, they presented the evidence & the case studies. I have problems with John E Mack not for his work with abductees but with his memory retrieval techniques.

You be better served with actually reading a book before commenting on it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Abducted-True-Stor...n/dp/0747259135

A mixture of things...mental illness, psychosis, psychopathy, confidence men, quick cash are all important possibilities in the researchers attempt to ascertain whether the abductee is genuine or not. They need to investigate for criminal histories, talk to friends, acquaintances & loved ones of the people involved, find out if the person has ever tried quick case schemes before, if they have ever been in need of creating fanciful stories before. Find out if the person has any witnesses or credible physical evidence obtainable. I never & have never said Alien abduction is provable, only that strong physical evidence is available to support the possibility.

Possible, yes. Evidence pointing in that direction, No.

No, wrong again. I've disagreed with the alien abduction scenario on the grounds of

lack of evidence.

Lack of evidence,

* 3392 physical trace cases in conjunction with credible witnesses purporting ufo sightings & abductions.

* Lies put out by Carl Sagan, Susan Blackmore & Susan A Clancy that were discovered by Stanton T Friedman & published in his paper available here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sf-clancy-abducted.html

* The 1961 Barney & Betty Hill abduction, the work by Marjorie fish that resulted & the pregnancy test used on Betty Hill during the abduction that exist on earth till 10 years after.

* The fact that the project bluebook threw out cases of unknowns into the insufficient evidence category after a year because there was only 1 witness no matter how credible or qualified that witness was.

* The Pilot UFO sightings collected by Richard Haines

* The Frederick Valentich disappearance

* The 1952 Washington UFO flap

* The government UFO lies put out about UFO's & abductions discovered by Stanton Friedman available here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sf-government-lies1.html

* The Project Mogul lie exposed by Aeronautical Engineer Robert Galganski available here: http://www.cufos.org/ros4.html

* The Allagash Four abductions that involved four separate people abducted who offered intricate corroborative details under separate interrogations & physical evidence.

* The 1992 Double Mass Abduction

* The Whitley Strieber Abduction case (his abductions were legitimate he has since however done things for money & scams with shady ufo individuals like Roger Leir & Sean David Morton.

* The Delphos Kansas Soil Flourescence

* The Linda Cortile Abduction in New York witnessed by independent third party witnesses from a separate location

* The Kathy Davis Abduction

* The 30 implants collected by Derrel Sims from 30 solidly documented & evidenced cases

* The Bob Pratt Brazilian Case Studies

* The MJ-12 Investigation done by Stanton Friedman available here: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/mj12_update1.html

* The case work of Bill Chalker & his OZ files compiled in Australia

* The work of PARSEC - Psychotherapists Associated for the Research and the Study about EBE and their Contacts.

* The Phobos moon probe being shutdown & recording a long cigar shaped object 15 miles long with it's infrared film.

* J Allen Hynek's testimony that intelligence agencies paid him money to debunk legitimate ufo cases, he came clean after he had paid his kids through college.

* The James McDonald Congressional Testimony of 1969

* The Donald Keyhoe revelations in 1952 & the proof that he was not allowed to talk of certain ufo findings on the air indicated by a newsarticle prior to a tv interview.

* The Pascagoula abductions

* The Travis Walton abductions

* The Malmstrom AFB incident of 1964

* The Edwards AFB incident

* The Authenticated Trent Farm UFO Photographs

A mish mash of cases lumped together in attempt to paint a picture and desired outcome favourable to the person who believes in alien abduction. Nothing more then that.

implying evidence for alien abduction to provide irrefutable evidence

There's nothing implied about any of the evidence, call Ted Phillips, call Derrel Sims, call Stan Friedman, call Budd Hopkins to name a fewcheck there evidence out for yourself.

Yes there is. Your implying it yourself.

Edited March 1, 2009 by Sky Scanner

[Lilly]

....Proof is just out of reach, hard evidence is available. My understanding of hard evidence is physical evidence

And this physical evidence consists of what exactly? If there is indeed physical evidence that indicates something definitively alien, verses something that could be terrestrial (most likely psychological), only then would I say there's something alien related taking place in objective reality.

Until the definitive evidence presents itself my opinion is pretty much in sync with what Dr. Carl Sagan wrote in "A Demon Haunted World" where he compares the demons of the past to aliens of today:

...most of the central elements of the alien abduction account are present, including sexually obsessive non-humans who live in the sky, walk through walls, communicate telepathically, and perform breeding experiments on the human species. Unless we believe that demons really exist, how can we understand so strange a belief system, embraced by the whole Western world (including those considered the wisest among us), reinforced by personal experience in every generation, and taught by Church and State? Is there any real alternative besides a shared delusion based on common brain wiring and chemistry?

We must also keep in mind that an internally based psychological event can seem very real to those experiencing it. Therefore, I think that many abductees are actually telling 'the truth' as they preceive it.

[Ra_Sun-God]

How are we to expect the neighbours to recognise an 'unproven concept' (officially) such as alien abductions?

By the very nature, of the abduction, the aliens.. yes if real, don't exactly want to be noticed.

Unless, we have expectations of a giant flashing saucer shaped UFO above a house.. lit up like a Christmas tree.

Anyway, there's been cases of the neighbours noticing 'bizarre sounds' etc..

Even if they notice the 'aliens, without proof, they're in the same boat as the alien abductee..

Unsubstantiated claim etc..

It's a never ending cycle..

The question should be, has the Military noticed? Considering they have access to relevance equipment.

Well, the best detecting equipment available to the humans..

In regards to the nature of aliens walking through walls, understandably, would suggest it's not happening because as far as we know such a concept is impossible, (as far as we know) of course that can change..

however.. critics of Alien abductions also expect there should be a remarkable extraordinary alien concept.

What could be more extraordinary than walking through walls?

And if you've ever witnessed it, I can assure you it's quite remarkable..

Yah, it's indeed remarkable they walk through walls. The story from this site http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2306tufos.html also indicate they walk through walls...

And then there are the theory about they dematerialize and show up elsewere. Lot's of ships were destroyed by German submarines during World War II, and then the Americans seems to need to do something like The Philadelphia Experiment

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Edited March 1, 2009 by Ra_Sun-God

[fireinthesky]

And this physical evidence consists of what exactly? If there is indeed physical evidence that indicates something definitively alien, verses something that could be terrestrial (most likely psychological), only then would I say there's something alien related taking place in objective reality.

Until the definitive evidence presents itself my opinion is pretty much in sync with what Dr. Carl Sagan wrote in "A Demon Haunted World" where he compares the demons of the past to aliens of today:

We must also keep in mind that an internally based psychological event can seem very real to those experiencing it. Therefore, I think that many abductees are actually telling 'the truth' as they preceive it.

I'm replying to you first Lilly because out of the two replies so far yours is more logical

The physical evidence consists of dermally cocooned implants in the cranium. Abductees have full conscious recall of their abductions in some cases (specifically Derrel Sims) which means they remember everything without any need for memory retrieval techniques, they also have full conscious recall of the implantation procedure of these items, In Derrel's case it was forced up his nostril at the age of 12, partially breaking it, he woke up in a pool of blood. Random metal flicks cannot remain in the cranium frontal lobe cavities of the brain without causing infection, symptoms or damage. These implants are cocooned in a skin that exists on the very top dermal layer of the skin, like the candy shell surrounding the chocolate of an m&m. The implants are not rejected by the body because of this fact & they are located in places inside body without infection, inflammation or symptoms. The sensitive locations such as the frontal lobe cavity of the brain & the fact that no damage, symptoms or inflammation occurs from this indicates it is not random metal flicks caused by welding accidents, BB guns etc. The reason researchers like Derrel Sims see the connection between the implants & the alien presence, firstly because Derrel had it done to him & remembers everything, more objectively the reason is that the veracity of the story told by the abductee when they can provide physical evidence as well as just their word. When an abductee has scarring, surgical incisions, burn marks, implants then the investigators can work with doctors to come up with a series of tests & questions to determine any holes in their story. A good investigator will use ploys to try & trip the abductee up, trick questions or questions they know the answer to. Any good homicide detective can tell your of the value of such things. I implore you Lilly to check out Derrel Sims work, talk to him, he's very receptive & a decent man. He's actually a qualified voice on the subject, with 1st hand experience, field experience & scientific experience, unlike Carl Sagan, I honestly don't know why you hold Dr Carl Sagan in high regard. Perhaps if you could name one qualification he has that demonstrates his skills to deal with the abduction phenomenon. Remember this too, plenty of people have opinion about this topic, & you know the old saying about opinions. I'll make that an open request, if anyone can demonstrate one skill Carl Sagan has to deal with the abduction phenomenon please tell us. An internally based Psychological event doesn't leave physical evidence such as surgical scarring, burn marks, laser burn marks, missing fetuses or witnesses. I don't know why I keep having to remind people of that clearly they're not listening because this would be the 10th time I've stated that fact. I'd also like to point out that the book by Dr Carl Sagan was theories, opinions & a little history. It's what layman (such as myself) refer to as junk science.

Thank you Lilly for your response

Edited March 1, 2009 by fireinthesky

[Ra_Sun-God]

Are you here to debate or just have a bit of silly childish amusement ?

I think he's also here to make a little bit fun of it, and why not?

He mentioned that No. 5 could be that real aliens abduct humans.

And then there could be a No. 6: They claim to be abducted because they just want attention, because maybe they could earn money out of it

Edited March 1, 2009 by Ra_Sun-God

[fireinthesky]

You be better served with actually reading a book before commenting on it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Abducted-True-Stor...n/dp/0747259135

Possible, yes. Evidence pointing in that direction, No.

A mish mash of cases lumped together in attempt to paint a picture and desired outcome favourable to the person who believes in alien abduction. Nothing more then that.

Yes there is. Your implying it yourself.

You be better served with actually reading a book before commenting on it.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Abducted-True-Stor...n/dp/0747259135

The only thing your response offers unfortunately is bare boned devil's advocacy. I own the book you speak of, I don't understand why you bring it up here at all, it doesn't strengthen your argument, if you had a coherent argument.

Possible, yes. Evidence pointing in that direction, No.

What do you base your conclusion that there is no evidence, are you blind, ignorant, stupid or in denial?

A mish mash of cases lumped together in attempt to paint a picture and desired outcome favourable to the person who believes in alien abduction. Nothing more then that.

I'd love to see you tell that to a judge in a murder trial when your barrister tries to get the evidence thrown out on those grounds. That's Golden, I suppose you think I just made all those pieces of evidence up? Who needs facts when we have a mish mash of cases lumped together in attempt to paint a picture and desired outcome favourable to the person who believes in alien abductions. Nothing more then that. I hope you don't mind if I forward that to some friends, I know Derrel would get a laugh out of it. It's going in my hall of fame for dumb things skeptics have said to me.

Thank you for the laugh it cheered me up

Edited March 1, 2009 by fireinthesky