Bizarro Posted November 8, 2002 #1 Share Posted November 8, 2002 i found pics taken of the pows we have taken from the war in afghanistan. i think its actually quite sad that we do these things to people, but yet i understand the psychological effects they are trying to inflict on them to make them talk. we don't believe in physical torture, but i tend to think psychological torture could be worse. can you imagine having a bag over your head for days or weeks at a time, how that might feel? being in the hands of people of another culture and being totally helpless? scary stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizarro Posted November 8, 2002 Author #2 Share Posted November 8, 2002 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizarro Posted November 8, 2002 Author #3 Share Posted November 8, 2002 ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathsythe Hell Posted November 8, 2002 #4 Share Posted November 8, 2002 war sucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-X Posted November 8, 2002 #5 Share Posted November 8, 2002 :(i feel sorry for them as well. Unfortunately we cant say or do anything to stop it. Its the not the soldiers fault their just doing what their told (lies). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted November 8, 2002 #6 Share Posted November 8, 2002 I can't believe thet anyone would think that treating people like this is productive. Maybe I am wiered but if somebody treated me like this for standing up for my beliefs ( no matter how twisted they might be ) I would want to kill them even more when I got out ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 9, 2002 #7 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Personally I think the soldiers are too lenient on them. They should be tortured until every last drop of information is drained. Then that information should be cross referenced with the others, who are tortured as well. When their usefulness has been fulfilled, they should be eliminated. Mr-X mentioned lies, and it was lies that drove these people to commit acts of terrorism against civilizations. War is hell, but brutality will help gather information so victory will come quicker and actually save lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizarro Posted November 9, 2002 Author #8 Share Posted November 9, 2002 yes torture and kill them because we are safeguarding CIVILIZATION!!!! spare no evil in protecting civilization, we are always right and they are always wrong. die heathens, but first let me saw off your pinky toe with a shard of glass... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 9, 2002 #9 Share Posted November 9, 2002 Provided sawing off the toe obtains information. Don't be fooled, that is the only way to preserve civilization. Thats how it has always been done and thats how it always will. The military and specific government agencies must be brutal to protect the masses. If we fail to adapt to a changing environment, then we will be the victim of that change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizarro Posted November 10, 2002 Author #10 Share Posted November 10, 2002 hmm, i don't think you got my point. how do you protect civilization by acting barbaric? its not really civilization if you protect it through brutality now, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 10, 2002 #11 Share Posted November 10, 2002 DSchwartz, I got your point, and that is why I answered the way I did. I didn't say the military or specific government agencies were civilized, but the masses in civilized countries are civilized. Also, in order to protect the masses, the military and specific government agencies sometimes have to resort to barbaric measures. That's the way it has always been, and that's the way it will always be. When one is engaged in a war where the enemy is bent on your destruction by any brutal means, the powers that protect us can't concern themselves with civility. War sucks, but war is a reality. Welcome to reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathsythe Hell Posted November 10, 2002 #12 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Boy it's a good thing the U.S is always making weapons so war can be prevented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizarro Posted November 10, 2002 Author #13 Share Posted November 10, 2002 yeah, Homer. that's why in times of peace those same powers got together and signed a document called the geneva convention. they wanted to make sure that just because you fight a war, you don't forget to show humanity to your enemy. when we go torturing people, they torture us in return. maybe you are some old guy who doesn't fear war because you wouldn't have to fight it, but i respect that fear. i believe war sucks and that is reality. torture makes it much worse than it already is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 10, 2002 #14 Share Posted November 10, 2002 Deathsythe, I understand your sarcasm, but understand it's the military might of the U.S. that's the reason it's enemies can't confront the U.S. by military means. It's the economic might of the U.S. that makes it possible to have this military might. So yes, the weapons of the U.S. armed forces have prevented a lot wars, and enabled our allies the edge to defeat a much larger force. Israel is the perfect example. DSchwartz, I undertsand what you mean about the Geneva Convention. Unfortunately, this is a different type of war and our enemies don't recognize the Geneva Convention. I have spent a number of years in the Middle East and have even been in combat operations in that region. You fail to grasp the concept of this war. There is no enemy capital to capture or airbases to blow up. Intelligence is the single greatest weapon we have, and if we lose that edge, then we lose the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cat Posted November 11, 2002 #15 Share Posted November 11, 2002 The problem with torture to get information is this... 1. The person being tortured might not actually know anything. You can never be sure. 2. The person being tortured may have agreed in the name of religion that they will never tell anything to anyone no matter what they endure. 3. These people hate America and all the other countries like it. They don't care if they are tortured because they have succeeded in putting fear into the heart of these countries and their lives are insignificant in the face of that. 4. They can lie, how do you really know what they say is true? 5. Violence doesn't work, it never has and it never will. Psychological and physical torture removes the victim from reality; you will not get valid results if you get any results at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr-X Posted November 11, 2002 #16 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Homer stated: Mr-X mentioned lies, and it was lies that drove these people to commit acts of terrorism against civilizations. "The first casualty of war in the truth" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted November 11, 2002 #17 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Well said Mr .X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 11, 2002 #18 Share Posted November 11, 2002 cat, in response to your problems: 1. "The person being tortured might not actually know anything. You can never be sure." Nothing in war is a sure thing, including the gathering of information. But to disregard a possible source of information is not very smart. 2. "The person being tortured may have agreed in the name of religion that they will never tell anything to anyone no matter what they endure." See reply #1 3. "These people hate America and all the other countries like it. They don't care if they are tortured because they have succeeded in putting fear into the heart of these countries and their lives are insignificant in the face of that" Nobody likes to be tortured, and most people, regardless of their beliefs, have a breaking point in the way of extreme pain 4. "They can lie, how do you really know what they say is true?" As I already mentioned in my first post, this information has to be cross referenced with others who are being tortured. Again, there are no guarantees. 5. "Violence doesn't work, it never has and it never will. Psychological and physical torture removes the victim from reality; you will not get valid results if you get any results at all." Violence does work. It always has and it always will. This is not to say that it will work in every circumstance, but in general it does work. Psychological and physical torture is an art form that has been practiced for thousands of years, and there are people who specialize in only that. Mr-X, That was my point. Thank you. Since it was our enemies that initiated this war, and the fact that these people were lied to in order for them to carry out the atrocities, that statement holds true. Although that statement also holds true in every circumstance involving war, does that mean that we shouldn't gather intelligence to assist in winning a war that is already in progress? This is my last post on the subject because you all know my views about it. My intent was not to persuade people into agreeing with me, but to offer a different perspective and my reasons for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted November 11, 2002 #19 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Homer , Don't be so sure that it was our enemies that started this war . You may only be aware of the facts that are being published on our side of the conflict .This is a war that stems back a long way and there has been an American military presence in these countries wich BTW are not there on peace keeping missions , for decades now . If somebody has been told that you are evil and they had to lie to make you look that way , wouldn't you be better off showing them what you are really like , Or is the American government really that keen to see innocent people slaughtered in a war that makes them no better than the terrorists themselves. Innocent people are killed , children are slain and families are torn apart both sides in a war have there victims to mourn, I can't see any reason valid enough to even start a war . I won't even let my kids get away with the " Well he started it " thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 11, 2002 #20 Share Posted November 11, 2002 Kismit, you are missing the point. I'm not going into who started the war, because that would depend on what you stand for. The point is, the war has already been initiated, and we must win. Gathering intelligence is the single best weapon we can obtain in this war with people who have no borders or military or capital. Thats all my posts are about. Who started it is irrelevant at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted November 12, 2002 #21 Share Posted November 12, 2002 O.K. Homer I'm sory then If i miss interpreted what you said . It just worries me sometimes that people only see propaganda as something only the bad guys do . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bizarro Posted November 12, 2002 Author #22 Share Posted November 12, 2002 the only thing that torture does for a war effort is lead to hostility of the people you tortured. those people will remember us as brutal and uncivilized long after this battle that we call a war is over. then we will really have a problem when we may have to face a greater foe who is resolved to repay our atrocities in kind. i think its one thing to win a war, but its another thing entirely to be brutal as you suggest, Homer. look how the germans embraced us after world war II- why did they do that? because they were scared of the russians and needed our protection. they looked at us as a civilized foe and knew that most of the prisoners captured by the russians never returned. that initial trust has led to them becoming a very important ally to us to this day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted November 12, 2002 #23 Share Posted November 12, 2002 the only thing that torture does for a war effort is lead to hostility of the people you tortured. those people will remember us as brutal and uncivilized long after this battle that we call a war is over. then we will really have a problem when we may have to face a greater foe who is resolved to repay our atrocities in kind. DSchwartz, That wouldn't be a problem, because after the "interviews", the prisoners disappear. By your example, DSchwartz, you are saying that after the war is over international terrorists will embrace us if we're nice to them? And that in doing this they may become an important ally to us? :s2 DSchwartz, as I have mentioned before, this is a different kind of war under a different kind of circumstances with a different set of rules. Please don't take offense, but you and everyone else who has posted to this except me has no concept of reality, and strategic and tactical military opportunities are lost on you. You act as if you're in school where you're taught it doesn't matter if you win or lose, but how you play the game. Our enemies would love to play with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted November 12, 2002 #24 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Well Homer I believe I have a very balanced sense of reality . I think that Dshwatrz has a point too . I don't know how often I have said this but every single person in the world should be viewed as an individual not a race or religion or a generalised type of any kind . It seems that your view of these prisoners and there families the people who are effected by this kind of treatment is that they are all terrorists and incapable of compassion . I think If one of my sons was made to disapear after becoming a prisoner of war I would go out of my way to rip the head off what ever b****** was responsible (aswell as any body who tried to stop me) , even if I didn't believe in the war before hand . Osama bin laden and Saddam Husien are both very good at using this kind of hostility to there advantage . Torture is not a necisarry part of war and war is not a necisarry part of life. I think that is the point the unrealistic people on this thread are trying to make. :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kismit Posted November 12, 2002 #25 Share Posted November 12, 2002 Maybe this could be a far more pleasant way to extract information than torture http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/4391614.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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