Why not just show itself?

[doesnt_matter]

I do not start many threads. But this is a question I have long wondered. If a God exists and WANTS you to believe in it, as claimed by all the religions, then why wouldn't it just show itself? Why not do something every generation that would be unmistakeably of God? Something like turning the black of space white for all to see, for example.

This absence of divine intervention has long led me to believe that relgions are man made creations. I am wondering, is there anything in the religions or just logical arguement that could answer this honest question? Why must we believe it only showed its power thousands of years ago? Surely some irrefutable proof on "IT's" part would go a long way to get people to believe in "IT". This God must be capable of such a thing if it is assumed to be what it is. Where is this God's proof of itself to us living now?

[Samuronin]

He is shy

[Cadetak]

Because the camera adds ten pounds.

If God showed himself it would no longer be a belief or faith...it would be fact. Which would defeat the point i think.

[Mr Walker]

I do not start many threads. But this is a question I have long wondered. If a God exists and WANTS you to believe in it, as claimed by all the religions, then why wouldn't it just show itself? Why not do something every generation that would be unmistakeably of God? Something like turning the black of space white for all to see, for example.

This absence of divine intervention has long led me to believe that relgions are man made creations. I am wondering, is there anything in the religions or just logical arguement that could answer this honest question? Why must we believe it only showed its power thousands of years ago? Surely some irrefutable proof on "IT's" part would go a long way to get people to believe in "IT". This God must be capable of such a thing if it is assumed to be what it is. Where is this God's proof of itself to us living now?

In a way you answer your own question. God "wants" us to BELIEVE in him. Belief is by definition a condition come to without knowledge or proof. In fact belief is a state of mind necessarily transcending or going beyone what is knowable or provable. Thus one common answer is that god choses not to reveal himself to most . Going further he requires us to base our actions on our beliefs. In other words to make choices from our own hearts and minds, not forced on us by knowledge.

Related to this is another argument that gods revelations, outside jesus, have almost always been very personal and individual. It is possible that the physical nature of god himself , the nature of man, and the relationship which exists between our physical natures, makes individualised communications much easier than generalised ones. The more a generalised appearance , the more physical substance and transformation is required. Again, god would then be revealing a physicality about himself that might not normally exist/might not be his true essence or nature, or might mislead those who see him as to his true form and function. One on one relationships allow god to both individualise his appearance and make it "deniable." Thus ,no matter how much one person might have a real physical contact with god, if this is not shared with others, then all others, again, must choose to believe, rather than being given no choice in the matter.

A third posibility is that while man was originally equipped for an intimate connection with god, this ability has been lost (either for physical or metaphysical reasons) through the passage of time. Thus some people might have a genetic predisposition to communication with god. Others may have less and some may have none. That does not mean they cannot believe through faith, merely that they cannot sense or recognoise the physical presence of god, even when it is all around them.

Those are three"logical"possibilities if you accept the reality of a physical and objective god. If you only accept a metaphysical or mythological god then there are many other possibilities.

There are many people today, and in the two millenia since christ, who have experienced the real physical presence of god in their lives, in just the same ways as people in the bible did. (and i dont mean just christian people or a christian form of god either)

Edited March 23, 2009 by Mr Walker

[Dr. Gregory House]

God shows himself everyday. It is the Sun.

[Lt_Ripley]

In a way you answer your own question. God "wants" us to BELIEVE in him. Belief is by definition a condition come to without knowledge or proof. In fact belief is a state of mind necessarily transcending or going beyone what is knowable or provable. Thus one common answer is that god choses not to reveal himself to most . Going further he requires us to base our actions on our beliefs. In other words to make choices from our own hearts and minds, not forced on us by knowledge.

Related to this is another argument that gods revelations, outside jesus, have almost always been very personal and individual. It is possible that the physical nature of god himself , the nature of man, and the relationship which exists between our physical natures, makes individualised communications much easier than generalised ones. The more a generalised appearance , the more physical substance and transformation is required. Again, god would then be revealing a physicality about himself that might not normally exist/might not be his true essence or nature, or might mislead those who see him as to his true form and function. One on one relationships allow god to both individualise his appearance and make it "deniable." Thus ,no matter how much one person might have a real physical contact with god, if this is not shared with others, then all others, again, must choose to believe, rather than being given no choice in the matter.

A third posibility is that while man was originally equipped for an intimate connection with god, this ability has been lost (either for physical or metaphysical reasons) through the passage of time. Thus some people might have a genetic predisposition to communication with god. Others may have less and some may have none. That does not mean they cannot believe through faith, merely that they cannot sense or recognoise the physical presence of god, even when it is all around them.

Those are three"logical"possibilities if you accept the reality of a physical and objective god. If you only accept a metaphysical or mythological god then there are many other possibilities.

There are many people today, and in the two millenia since christ, who have experienced the real physical presence of god in their lives, in just the same ways as people in the bible did. (and i dont mean just christian people or a christian form of god either)

there is no proof of this. it could be nothing more than delusion. without proof it's only an opinion.

[Dr. Gregory House]

there is no proof of this. it could be nothing more than delusion. without proof it's only an opinion.

Or it's the sun?

Sorry, just filling in.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Dr. Gregory House

[Omnaka]

there is no proof of this. it could be nothing more than delusion. without proof it's only an opinion.

I agree with His knowledge, even if you call it delusion or Opinion. I also apreciate the way Bro Walker shares his knowledge.

Your discounting his , or anyone elses experience shared Is Opinion, from an experience sharedAgain leaving the skeptic Holding a bag o Doubt, Speculation questions about the experiences, or what ever.

Sharing is caring..

If any on this board lie about their experiences, the lie is on them, Just as if one believes something, the belief is on them. I'm not here to prove anything to you Ripley, just share, probably bro walkers stance too, as was Bro Jesus' stance and many others written about in all the holy texts.

Believe or not, makes no diferance to the one sharing, untill that person is called a lier or worse, then it takes a diferent tone from sharing to defence to offence and defeats the point of sharing an experience all together IMO.

Asking questions with out denigrating the sharer goes further to getting them answered than Saying prove it, or you'r a lier. I realise you aren't calling anyone a lier, up front, And maybe telling me to stay on my meds was a stab at being funny, but it's a fine line sister.

Love Omnaka

[Lt_Ripley]

I agree with His knowledge, even if you call it delusion or Opinion. I also apreciate the way Bro Walker shares his knowledge.

Your discounting his , or anyone elses experience shared Is Opinion, from an experience sharedAgain leaving the skeptic Holding a bag o Doubt, Speculation questions about the experiences, or what ever.

Sharing is caring..

If any on this board lie about their experiences, the lie is on them, Just as if one believes something, the belief is on them. I'm not here to prove anything to you Ripley, just share, probably bro walkers stance too, as was Bro Jesus' stance and many others written about in all the holy texts.

Believe or not, makes no diferance to the one sharing, untill that person is called a lier or worse, then it takes a diferent tone from sharing to defence to offence and defeats the point of sharing an experience all together IMO.

Asking questions with out denigrating the sharer goes further to getting them answered than Saying prove it, or you'r a lier. I realise you aren't calling anyone a lier, up front, And maybe telling me to stay on my meds was a stab at being funny, but it's a fine line sister.

Love Omnaka

your belief , as with all beliefs , are just opinion. nothing more. a personal experience is not proof to anyone but the experiencer .... and since they can not prove it ....... it is opinion. more likely with some cases to be delusion. hint.

yes ........ it's a fine line . I wasn't trying to be funny.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Lt_Ripley

[Wootloops]

I do not start many threads. But this is a question I have long wondered. If a God exists and WANTS you to believe in it, as claimed by all the religions, then why wouldn't it just show itself? Why not do something every generation that would be unmistakeably of God? Something like turning the black of space white for all to see, for example.

This absence of divine intervention has long led me to believe that relgions are man made creations. I am wondering, is there anything in the religions or just logical arguement that could answer this honest question? Why must we believe it only showed its power thousands of years ago? Surely some irrefutable proof on "IT's" part would go a long way to get people to believe in "IT". This God must be capable of such a thing if it is assumed to be what it is. Where is this God's proof of itself to us living now?

Yes, surely an omnipotent and omniscient and omni-benevolent god would if he did so exist, be necessitated to reveal himself without a shadow of a doubt to all people, if it were the case that those same people would be eternally damned after they die, as a result of a lack of belief in this god.

If the world were such that the claims of Christianity or Islam weren't highly debatable, and didn't need need to be held on faith, but instead were just known, obviously, to everyone, then billions and billions of souls would be spared eternal torment, and at no cost to what Christians or Muslims perceive as free will. Any Christian or Muslim who believes their god is all powerful, all knowing, all loving, and morally perfect, must be prepared to account for the fact that the existence of this God is blatantly unclear; and it is for this reason, and not morality, and not rebellion, that the vast majority of the world's population, throughout human history, will spend, and are spending, an eternity in Hell. They didn't know. They didn't have a choice to reject or accept a god. They didn't know one existed.

Surely if a god existed, and the fate of his creations' souls depended on their belief in him, then he would make sure that every last creation knew of his existence. The fact that this isn't the case in the world today, makes the existence of a god like this very unlikely, and if he did exist, makes him very evil.

Edited March 23, 2009 by Wootloops

[Omnaka]

your belief , as with all beliefs , are just opinion. nothing more. a personal experience is not proof to anyone but the experiencer .... and since they can not prove it ....... it is opinion. more likely with some cases to be delusion. hint.

yes ........ it's a fine line . I wasn't trying to be funny.

Thats OK you made Me Laugh anyway

Love Omnaka

[Agent. Mulder]

I do not start many threads. But this is a question I have long wondered. If a God exists and WANTS you to believe in it, as claimed by all the religions, then why wouldn't it just show itself? Why not do something every generation that would be unmistakeably of God? Something like turning the black of space white for all to see, for example.

This absence of divine intervention has long led me to believe that relgions are man made creations. I am wondering, is there anything in the religions or just logical arguement that could answer this honest question? Why must we believe it only showed its power thousands of years ago? Surely some irrefutable proof on "IT's" part would go a long way to get people to believe in "IT". This God must be capable of such a thing if it is assumed to be what it is. Where is this God's proof of itself to us living now?

just one of the many flaws with christianity, as well as many other religions.

its like asking gandalf to show himself, aint gonna happen.

its odd that ALL the appearances god made were waaay back in the day, when people were quite easily influenced, believed others on their word and were not very intelligent. as man has progressed, become More technologically advanced and more logical in thinking, the less god appears...anyone else find that interesting?

[Karlis]

there is no proof of this. it could be nothing more than delusion. without proof it's only an opinion.

Ripley, consider the following, skeptic that you are.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the ages were framed by a word of God, so that the things being seen not to have come into being out of the things that appear.

Karlis

[Mr Walker]

there is no proof of this. it could be nothing more than delusion. without proof it's only an opinion.

I agree, but there are different forms of proof. What constitutes enough proof to prove something is not a delusion, eg shared observation by separate, independent witnesses and physical, tangible, measurable, and verified alteration of the local environment, may not be sufficient to prove something scientifically.

And it may not be proof which is accesible to verification. Eg I never had a camera with me when the angels appeared; (camera phones weren't invented) and if i did have, would they have captured the image of the angels. Possibly, given that in both cases they were observed by other people but possibly not, if the nature of an angel is such that it apppears physically to human eyes (or some other sense organ we possess), but is not substantial enough to be caught on camera.

Ps im not offended by your disbelief, nor would i be even if you called me a liar. It is a perfectly logical and sensible viewpoint for anyone without similar experiences. For many years i held a similar view, but a person who does not learn from their experiences is either stupid or wilfully ignorant, both of which i do my best to avoid

Edited March 23, 2009 by Mr Walker

[TheKnight]

I do not start many threads. But this is a question I have long wondered. If a God exists and WANTS you to believe in it, as claimed by all the religions, then why wouldn't it just show itself? Why not do something every generation that would be unmistakeably of God? Something like turning the black of space white for all to see, for example.

This absence of divine intervention has long led me to believe that relgions are man made creations. I am wondering, is there anything in the religions or just logical arguement that could answer this honest question? Why must we believe it only showed its power thousands of years ago? Surely some irrefutable proof on "IT's" part would go a long way to get people to believe in "IT". This God must be capable of such a thing if it is assumed to be what it is. Where is this God's proof of itself to us living now?

Tell me something, what exactly would change if God revealed Himself to to everyone?

[Wootloops]

Tell me something, what exactly would change if God revealed Himself to to everyone?

They would believe he existed, which is quite important to religions like Christianity and Islam, but maybe not so much to Judaism.

[Omnaka]

Tell me something, what exactly would change if God revealed Himself to to everyone?

We would not be having this discussion.

Love Omnaka

[Agent. Mulder]

Tell me something, what exactly would change if God revealed Himself to to everyone?

what do you think?

the debate between which religion is right would be over, and science would have no choice but to accept what it just saw.

[Mr Walker]

Yes, surely an omnipotent and omniscient and omni-benevolent god would if he did so exist, be necessitated to reveal himself without a shadow of a doubt to all people, if it were the case that those same people would be eternally damned after they die, as a result of a lack of belief in this god.

As i pointed out on a different thread, here the operative term/concept is belief. We must believe. It is belief which saves because it is a conscious choice taken in faith. If we knew, we would have no choice. It is the making of the choice on the basis of belief which saves or "damns". God cannot physically reveal himself without in a way condemning people by taking away their fredom to chose via belief.

And yes it does concern me personally that god did exactly this for/with me. I can only hope that, as he did so mostly to save my physical life he will not condemn me for not being able to believe in faith.

It is also why i believe gods heart and "house" are open to all people of any faith/ religion, who do not consciously and actively deny him.

A person who actively denies him cant reasonably be expected to be able to even discover gods heart or house , let alone find their way in; and if their own hearts and minds are closed, god rarely forces his way in. He will knock, sometimes softly and sometimes forcefully, but we must open the door to our mind and our heart for him to enter.

[Omnaka]

As i pointed out on a different thread, here the operative term/concept is belief. We must believe. It is belief which saves because it is a conscious choice taken in faith. If we knew, we would have no choice. It is the making of the choice on the basis of belief which saves or "damns". God cannot physically reveal himself without in a way condemning people by taking away their fredom to chose via belief.

And yes it does concern me personally that god did exactly this for/with me. I can only hope that, as he did so mostly to save my physical life he will not condemn me for not being able to believe in faith.

It is also why i believe gods heart and "house" are open to all people of any faith/ religion, who do not consciously and actively deny him.

A person who actively denies him cant reasonably be expected to be able to even discover gods heart or house , let alone find their way in; and if their own hearts and minds are closed, god rarely forces his way in. He will knock, sometimes softly and sometimes forcefully, but we must open the door to our mind and our heart for him to enter.

Yeah Brother Walker Amen to That!

Love Omnaka

[Karlis]

They would believe he existed, which is quite important to religions like Christianity and Islam, but maybe not so much to Judaism.

Perhaps many would attribute such evidence to Extra-Terrestrial aliens, rather than to God? I'm saying that seriously, btw.

Karlis

[TheKnight]

They would believe he existed, which is quite important to religions like Christianity and Islam, but maybe not so much to Judaism.

I may not have phrased that question appropriately. What exactly (as far as one's behavior) would change if God revealed Himself to everyone? So what, people would believe in Him. But what exactly does that mean? How does that affect the way the world is, how people behave, etc etc etc.

what do you think?

the debate between which religion is right would be over, and science would have no choice but to accept what it just saw.

So, God appears in the sky and says "Hi guys, I'm here!" What does that solve? You'd simply have every religion saying that it was their God who appeared.

There isn't really a substatial debate between science and religion. The fact that God appears wouldn't actually solve the debate because even amongst the religious there are debates concerning scientific ideas.

[Wootloops]

As i pointed out on a different thread, here the operative term/concept is belief. We must believe. It is belief which saves because it is a conscious choice taken in faith. If we knew, we would have no choice. It is the making of the choice on the basis of belief which saves or "damns". God cannot physically reveal himself without in a way condemning people by taking away their fredom to chose via belief.

And yes it does concern me personally that god did exactly this for/with me. I can only hope that, as he did so mostly to save my physical life he will not condemn me for not being able to believe in faith.

It is also why i believe gods heart and "house" are open to all people of any faith/ religion, who do not consciously and actively deny him.

A person who actively denies him cant reasonably be expected to be able to even discover gods heart or house , let alone find their way in; and if their own hearts and minds are closed, god rarely forces his way in. He will knock, sometimes softly and sometimes forcefully, but we must open the door to our mind and our heart for him to enter.

This seems very much like a semantics game, but even so, the only possible reason I can imagine for a god doing something like this, is to create a moral-sorting: People are forced to choose to believe in one religion, at the exclusion of all others, and those who are morally proper, will choose God's religion. There's a problem though. People may find that they agree with God's religion above all others, and if they had to, they would choose his, but the fact of the matter is, that they have no reason to believe in it. It may be morally preferable to them, but they nontheless do not believe in that religion simply because they are not convinced it is true. So once again God is damning people for not knowing, not on the basis of their moral competence.

A much more effective way to do this moral sorting, would indeed be for God to show himself. If God proved himself to everyone, and everyone knew which religion was the true religion, then all people would, through moral choice, either reject or accept this God and his teachings through.

Knowledge does not negate choice. You make your choices on the basis of your knowledge. The more knowledge you have, the better informed your choice will be. God leaving the world in a state of ignorance of him, as to in some way sort between the good and the bad, on the whole it seems to me to be both impractical and ineffective.

Such a game as you describe is not what we should expect in a world where an omnipotent, omniscient, and omni-benevolent god lays reign. It is however what we should expect if such a god did not exist.

Edited March 24, 2009 by Wootloops

[Wootloops]

Perhaps many would attribute such evidence to Extra-Terrestrial aliens, rather than to God? I'm saying that seriously, btw.

Karlis

Well God in his omniscient wisdom and omnipotent power would make sure that this didn't happen. And even if through all of his power and wisdom he could not convince some, then he shouldn't send them to Hell. They didn't know he existed.

[Agent. Mulder]

So, God appears in the sky and says "Hi guys, I'm here!" What does that solve? You'd simply have every religion saying that it was their God who appeared.

There isn't really a substatial debate between science and religion. The fact that God appears wouldn't actually solve the debate because even amongst the religious there are debates concerning scientific ideas.

uhhh, yeah. even a 3 year old would understand that. whay cant you?

god pops down, says what god he is, what religion is right, and that they hope were behaving ourselves.

done and done. there would be videos, pictures and it would be flying across the newspapers and tv worldwide for a while.

it would accomplish a lot. example: there would be no spirituality vs. skepticism board on here.

any of this sinking in now?