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Beckys_Mom

Would you kill if god asked?

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Condescending
If I were in Abraham's position, and God had proven himself to be true to his word in all things miraculous, and he had promised my son/daughter (and no other) would be the one through whom my genealogy would be reckoned, I would like to think I would do as God asked.

I guess you would say then that the simple answer then is "yes". Though on a personal level here, I am not in Abraham's position, and my child (when i have a child) has not been given grand promises from God, backed up by miraculous deeds from the Lord whom I follow.

That's as honest as you're going to get from me, BM. Without taking the context of the event into consideration it's impossible to look for the play yes or no response. This hopefully explains the situation as I see it.

~ Regards,

Is this something you would be comfortable for your future child to read one day PA? Or hear from your mum?

I think its obvious that the people in this thread with no children, their answers can't be taken very serious.. atleast from me they can't. I won't pretend to know the feeling a parent feels for the child, and so in not knowing that I can't answer the question fully.. but if we talk about a voice speaking inside my head to go and kill it, I can't subscribe to the logic that because I was primitive I would do it based on that. Firstly because I am sure of that I would also have an inner voice telling me not to do it.. and secondly from my perspective if I were both ignorant and a believer and all that jazz I would attribuse that voice to the oh so decieving satan over god.

Giving the command is telling of the command giver though, very much telling

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mklsgl

Yes.

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Karlis
Spoken like a modern person, Number1. I agree with you in the modern context, our attitude towards children and parenthood has changed dramatically (going by what we read in the literature that is left from those ancient times.)

What I am saying is that we don't really know how we would answer, because we cannot divorce ourselves from this modern mentality we have. However, if what we read in such texts that are left to us from biblical and pre-biblical times (from all cultures) is indicative of how the population in general thought with regards to religion, children, parenthood etc then it is likely we would not think as we do today.

And -- this does not take into consideration B's Moms rules number one, two and three ... no discussion regarding what Abraham knew about the *fact* that his one and only son would generate many peoples. :P

Karlis

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Karlis
Absolutely.I would need to be crazy to want to kill my child........

Here is why I wouldnt do it...appart from Becky being my life.....But if I lived back in those days, and I believed in God and satan and if I heard gods voice calling me and then telling me to do it.....I would instantly think it was the devil tricking me..cuz that request alone sounds so twisted......so yeaa I would think it was a nasty evil trick...and my answer would still be a big NO..NO WAY HOSEY

Script writers are gods ... and this scriptwriter of her own OP just broke the fight club rules. :devil:

Karlis

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000000000000000

No. I would never do that in today's time. But you have to remember. That was a time of way more bloodshed. Im sure he has seen many people die and killed many more. So it would be a big difference between us and him. If I were in Abraham's position I probably would. Think of Judaism back than as a cult. That's how they were twisted to God's word. Like modern cults if your leader wants you to kill someone or even yourself sometimes they do it. There is quite a few examples. That is how closely they followed God's word. So yes if I was Abraham in his time most likely I would do it.

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Karlis
No. An Omnipotent Deity doesn't need to test faith. An Omnipotent Deity already knows.
Point is -- we as the audience were not given the background as to why Abe's faith was being put to the test.

Here is a thought:

x-x-x-x- (snip and delete)

~~~ My answer would be outside of the frame of the OP, so I bit my fingers and did not type the explanation.

Mind you, folks -- I really and truly think I do have a *possible ???* reason, which would/could be Biblical, as to why Abraham was tested in this manner.

Karlis

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Karlis
But here didn't know God would stop him. He was perfectly willing to off his child as God commanded. Though that kind of thing wasn't uncommon back then. People would kill children for a number of different reasons, like being deformed, sickly, or they just couldn't feed any more of them. Offering a child to a God for a good harvest is a good exchange when you have five others to feed.

I agree Leonardo, the ancient world had a completely different view of children. For most ancient children life wasn't the luxury the children of the first world know today.

So to answer the question, if I lived at the time of Abraham would I kill my child if a God ask me to, maybe I would.

Darkwind, may I ask if you are fully aware of the information available in the Bible concerning what Abraham knew, when he obeyed God here?

Karlis

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Karlis
I'd have to say NO.

I understand that I would be a person living in ancient times and that the general attitude towards children isn't the same as today. I also am taking into consideration that an invisible, all powerful deity was speaking to me. I would still go with no.

I am putting myself into that time and place. With my current feelings and emotions. The love I have for my kids is overwhelming. They are the most precious things in the world for me.

I would offer myself instead.

HN

Hi HR -- I'm putting the same question to you as I just put to Darkwind's post #33.

Karlis

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000000000000000

There seems to be questions of god's own morals. I personally believe God to be a tyrant. Think about it. He kills all those who stand in his way. He commands the ancient Israeli to carve out Canaan so he could have his Kingdom for his people. He killed all who disobeyed him. That was the good days though. Those who obeyed him supposedly lived long prosperous lives. That was when he was in my opinion young and just in power. Now I think of him as old and his power is fading so he has increased his choke hold on humanity. Now he cares about no one. He lets even his own followers die and suffer just to prove their faith. He lets destruction and chaos reign down on his own people. And all those who stand against them he sends them down to the Dungeons(Hell) for eternal punishment. He basically says follow me no matter what I command and when you die you can stay in my presence or suffer eternally. How is that merciful. How can one so supposedly moral let these deeds go through to his own people. Men have more mercy. So my question is how can a eternal, all-knowing, perfect being condemn something and do it himself? My answer is he is a simple concoction of a less moral time. A time of savages. That would explain his behavior and his likeness to the Immoral kings of old. He simply grew more wicked because the leaders of the church knew that their control of the public with God was wearing off. That is my thought on this whole subject sorry to get a little off topic Beckys Mom. I just felt the need to answer that with my own opinion.

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Karlis
If I were in Abraham's position, and God had proven himself to be true to his word in all things miraculous, and he had promised my son/daughter (and no other) would be the one through whom my genealogy would be reckoned, I would like to think I would do as God asked.

I guess you would say then that the simple answer then is "yes". Though on a personal level here, I am not in Abraham's position, and my child (when i have a child) has not been given grand promises from God, backed up by miraculous deeds from the Lord whom I follow.

That's as honest as you're going to get from me, BM. Without taking the context of the event into consideration it's impossible to look for the play yes or no response. This hopefully explains the situation as I see it.

~ Regards,

PA -- you also broke B's Mom's rules. You had to answer with a "Yes" or with a "No" -- without providing reasons for answering with a "Yes".

Karlis

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Karlis
If the answer is simply one or the other, without any form of contextual understanding, then I say "Pass". There are variable to consider that would change the response :yes:
You are found guilty as charged for not answering "Yes" or "No".

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Karlis
Put yourself in Abraham's shoes for a moment, and then re-examine the question. Of course, in order to do this you actually have to know something of the history of what Abraham went through, including God's promises to keep him safe when he went to Egypt, his wild promise of an heir when he was too old for children and his wife was barren, and the extraordinary promise that the particular son in question (Isaac) would be the one through whom God would count his generations.

In Abraham's place, if you saw all these miraculous things, and God promised that your only son would be the seed through whom the entire world would be blessed, would you doubt? When he then asked to sacrifice him, in light of the miracles you had seen, how would you react? A man who Faithfully believes that God keeps all his promises MUST accept that Isaac could not die (or if he did, he would be resurrected from the grave). If you don't believe God's promises, then you would of course disagree. But going solely on the events recorded, which category would you fall under - remember that your barren wife had given birth with your seed, when you were also too old for children.....

Any thoughts on this one?

~ PA

Well, there are many possibilities, PA. You are a brain-dead believer who has no ability to think for yourself, could be a start, if you like. :P

Karlis

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Condescending
B's Mom -- you are asking us to give you "YES or NO" answer.

You say that you will not accept, "a lot of banter about the promise ect."

Since you request either a "Yes" or a "No" for an answer, I will ask you to answer a similarly loaded question, for which you also must give exactly the same one word answer -- no banter and nothing but a simple "Yes" or a "No".

- snip -

Your answer, please?

Karlis

You just broke B's Mom's rules number one, two and three Ghost. :)

You can only answer "Yes" or "No".

Karlis

And -- this does not take into consideration B's Moms rules number one, two and three ... no discussion regarding what Abraham knew about the *fact* that his one and only son would generate many peoples. :P

Karlis

Script writers are gods ... and this scriptwriter of her own OP just broke the fight club rules. :devil:

Karlis

PA -- you also broke B's Mom's rules. You had to answer with a "Yes" or with a "No" -- without providing reasons for answering with a "Yes".

Karlis

Comment on her asking for a yes or a no 14 times more and im sure people will finaly notice.

I am impressed you naturally assume she beats her own child. I jsut hope your not a father based on that.. how old are you?

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Tiggs
But do we know?????

What I mean by this is, up to the point in time in Genesis, we have a depiction of a man who really doesn't trust God. When he arrives at the lands of other nations, on at least two occasions (from memory) he is afraid that the beauty of his wife would cause him to be killed and the ruler to take his wife as their own. Despite God's promise to keep him and Sarah safe, Abraham pretends to be Sarah's brother (not entirely untrue, since they were half-siblings). Both times, God condemns them for their lack of Faith.

Next time, God tells Abraham that he will be the father of a great nation. Again Abraham does not believe. After all, he was too old and his wife was barren. So he again fails in his duty to God - he tries to fulfil God's plan himself by having sex with his maidservant. Once again God condemns Abraham.

And then the impossible becomes possible - Sarah falls pregnant. A barren woman with an aged husband bears a child. And then God says that this child would be the one through whom the world would be blessed. Not another child! Not some other being that would come later. This one child, and this one child only.

At this point, we bring in God's test. Ask yourself - how would we read this section of text if this test did not exist. What would our opinion of Abraham be as a "man of Faith"? I have no doubt that we would all ask, "what Faith?" He hasn't shown any. He has repeatedly gone against God. However, the final test here shows that God's miracles in provided a son to a barren woman and aged man had swayed Abraham to finally put his full trust and confidence in God. The test is as much for Abraham's benefit as it is for ours. And as we today read this thousands of years later, it is for our benefit as well, and for the same reasons.

Just a thought :)

~ PA

Interesting. I think that's the first time I've ever seen an apologetic that says that God did something purely for the benefit of the comprehension of future readers.

I'd imagine that non-Christians would probably tend to call that "a literary device".

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Lt_Ripley
B's Mom -- you are asking us to give you "YES or NO" answer.

You say that you will not accept, "a lot of banter about the promise ect."

Since you request either a "Yes" or a "No" for an answer, I will ask you to answer a similarly loaded question, for which you also must give exactly the same one word answer -- no banter and nothing but a simple "Yes" or a "No".

Geri, have you stopped beating and bashing Becky?

Your answer, please?

Karlis

can we get a plain yes or no from you on this ?? so who have you stopped murdering ?? God has no maybes, or ifs. here.. it's straight do it.

Exodus 31:12-15 (King James Version)

12And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

how about it ??

Edited by Lt_Ripley

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Karlis
Comment on her asking for a yes or a no 14 times more and im sure people will finaly notice.

I am impressed you naturally assume she beats her own child. I jsut hope your not a father based on that.. how old are you?

G'day young Condescending Grasshopper,

If 14 more posters sent 14 posts deserving 14 responses and received 14 similar replies, which people will finally notice, Condescending Grasshopper?

Your abilities "to be impressed and to assume" need more wisdom, Condescending Grasshopper.

Your hopes need more maturity Condescending Grasshopper.

I am so old that I have two sons who are older than you are, Condescending Grasshopper.

This lesson is pro bono, Condescending Grasshopper. I will bill you for the next ones. B)

Kind regards,

Karlis

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Lt_Ripley
G'day young Condescending Grasshopper,

If 14 more posters sent 14 posts deserving 14 responses and received 14 similar replies, which people will finally notice, Condescending Grasshopper?

Your abilities "to be impressed and to assume" need more wisdom, Condescending Grasshopper.

Your hopes need more maturity Condescending Grasshopper.

I am so old that I have two sons who are older than you are, Condescending Grasshopper.

This lesson is pro bono, Condescending Grasshopper. I will bill you for the next ones. B)

Kind regards,

Karlis

age does not wisdom make... obviously

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Karlis
Interesting. I think that's the first time I've ever seen an apologetic that says that God did something purely for the benefit of the comprehension of future readers.

*****1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

I'd imagine that non-Christians would probably tend to call that "a literary device".

*****Literary device, perhaps; but why not also as an object lesson to future readers, Tiggs?

Karlis

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Condescending
G'day young Condescending Grasshopper,

If 14 more posters sent 14 posts deserving 14 responses and received 14 similar replies, which people will finally notice, Condescending Grasshopper?

Your abilities "to be impressed and to assume" need more wisdom, Condescending Grasshopper.

Your hopes need more maturity Condescending Grasshopper.

I am so old that I have two sons who are older than you are, Condescending Grasshopper.

This lesson is pro bono, Condescending Grasshopper. I will bill you for the next ones. B)

Kind regards,

Karlis

I will just let this wisdom lesson stand for itself hahaha

Signed, Condescending ____________ , you fill in the blanks

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Karlis
can we get a plain yes or no from you on this ?? so who have you stopped murdering ?? God has no maybes, or ifs. here.. it's straight do it.

*****Think it through, please, B's Mom ... read what I wrote earlier concerning badly phrased questions.

~~~~~

Exodus 31:12-15 (King James Version)

12And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

13Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

14Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

how about it ??

That was the the judgment under the law, Ripley, concerning defiling the Sabbath day -- and this involved idolatry and abominable acts, as introduced from foreign nations with whom Israel came into contact.

If you know about the history of Israel -- how easily they fell under the so-called delights of idol worship involving sexual abominations, etc., -- I don't think you would have such a big a problem with God's strict rules about this.

Hope this is of some help, in such a short post,

Karlis

Edited by Karlis

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Karlis
age does not wisdom make... obviously
True words, Grasshopper. If you persevere long enough, you may still learn.

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Lt_Ripley
True words, Grasshopper. If you persevere long enough, you may still learn.

soon enough you'll be able to think logically too ! stay positive . I know you can do it.

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Lt_Ripley
That was the the judgment under the law, Ripley, concerning defiling the Sabbath day -- and this involved idolatry and abominable acts, as introduced from foreign nations with whom Israel came into contact.

If you know about the history of Israel -- how easily they fell under the so-called delights of idol worship involving sexual abominations, etc., -- I don't think you would have such a big a problem with God's strict rules about this.

Hope this is of some help, in such a short post,

Karlis

guess what ?? it's still christian law. the ten commandments ?? Jesus came not to do away with the law but fulfill it.... no it wasn't about idolatry ...... it was about a day set aside for observing what God had done. there is already a separate law for idolatry remember ? thou shall have no other Gods .......... ??? guess you forgot that one. Quit trying to BS your way through an answer. You don't know the bible as well as you pretend you do. get over yourself. Pride cometh before a fall and your leaning like the Tower of Pisa .TIMBER dude.

if the 10 commandments no longer matter .... why do christians want to put monuments of them in government buildings / areas' ??

Edited by Lt_Ripley

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Saru

Having read the last two pages I can't see much benefit to keeping this open, I don't think discussing whether you would kill a child if God asked you to is a suitable topic, regardless of the hypothetical circumstances. Some of the responses have also been less than civil.

Closed.

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