New Spanish PM to Withdraw Troops from Iraq ASAP

[Stamford]

All he was saying is that we are at war and you either want to win the war or give into the terrorists. Stamford...in all seriousness...I understand you know much, much more about terrorism than anyone in my country....I truly am sorry for what you guys lived through every day of your lives with the IRA. Please understand that we don't know what it is like. We don't know and we don't want to know. For the USA 911 wasn't the beginning but it must be the end. And please, please, in all seriousness, please don't make the mistake of comparing these Islamist Extremists to the IRA.

I understand your sentiments joc, but I and my fellow countrymen/women don't compare the IRA with Al Queda; the Irish at least had an agenda (a united Ireland), whilst these fanatics, as you quite rightly pointed out, want to destroy our way of life.

My retort to Arashi Ravenblade was because it has got to the stage now where if you don't tow the party line you are labelled as an enemy.

I personally think that Spain has made a mistake by pulling out now; this is a mess we HAVE to clear up, if that's possible, which I am not sure it is.

I am, as you know, 100% behind the American people; I feel for your suffering in the 911 atrocoties. However, 911 has become a blanket excuse by Bush and Balir to settle old scores.

Yes, those who carried out the 911 attacks deserve all they get, but I fail to see the link between those attacks and the War.

However, the Iraqi people did not deserve to be abandoned to lawlessness and Islamic Fundamentalism, which is what will prosper if we leave.

We have destabalised a Country that was not linked with 911; Saddam, I am sure, laughed his head off as the towers came down, but he did not order the planes to fly into them.

It is strange for me, someone who was totally opposed to the War, to now be demanding that we stay in the Country that we invaded, but we owe it to the Iraqi people to try and give them a better life and a stable future - I just don't know how we can do it without terrible loss of more lives.

[Stamford]

I want the truth. I also want to live in a world where people peacefully resolve their differences, where everyone has access to adequate food, shelter and clean water, where those who commit despicable acts are held accountable, and where a life matters more than money. None of that is likely anytime soon. But we should try anyway.

Absolutely, Permakid

[wunarmdscissor]

stamford and permakid once again totally agree.

BTW about the IRA joc.

Stamford whilst ive agreed with you on nearly everything in these types of thread im afraid i have to disagree with you here.

The IRA's struggle in the end was not only a war to unite ireland it was a war against protestants as well. DOnt even kid ourselves on they hate protestants as much as muslim fundamentalists hate us.

I see it every day, the west of scotland especially glasgow is just as bad as in nothern ireland. I6ts pure bigotry and thats what this is all about.

So joc, again please dont try and comment on matters you dont have a full understanding of.

[wunarmdscissor]

by the way arashi ravenblade your typen of nosesical approach to this situation is the typ of attitude that the terrorsts have , so what does that mean???

Your just as bad?

You WERE saying that spain are now our enemy and dont deny it, So its the US an GB against the world now, you seem to be happy for us to go on our own crusade.

Sound familiar??

[Stamford]

No, Wunarmd, I do agree with you, it does go deeper than just a united Ireland.

I think we in England don't really understand how deep the hatred between Catholics and Protestants runs (we gave up burning each other about 400 years ago).

I was really only simplifying things a bit; the whole history of the Irish Civil War (because that's what it was/is) is too complicated to be explained in one sentence.

Spot on as usual

[wunarmdscissor]

Yeah stamford but joc continually seems to be "talking down" the type of hatred that the IRA had for us, its really annoying. He might as well just come out say "but it wasnt as bad as it was for us on 9/11".

[Stamford]

He might as well just come out say "but it wasnt as bad as it was for us on 9/11".

I agree, just because the death toll from 911 was so high, doesn't decrease the suffering of thousands in Ireland and the British mainland over the last 30 years.

We, however, demonstrated quite a lot of restraint in our reaction to much of the carniage.

911 on the other hand has resulted in the invasion of two countrys already (Afghanistan I totally understood and supported, Iraq I don't).

[Babs]

joc...

I agree with you, joc.

[bathory]

I agree, just because the death toll from 911 was so high, doesn't decrease the suffering of thousands in Ireland and the British mainland over the last 30 years.

so you guys took it for over 30 years?

[Stamford]

so you guys took it for over 30 years?

Well we didn't invade the South because terrorists planted bombs.

[Babs]

I don't think you can compare 911 and the Irish 30 yr. period.... two very different things.

I wonder if (god forbid) a terror attack in America would sway the election. I think Bush is going to lose, but it something were to happen right before the election that might change.

That's the difference between Spain and the U.S. If there is an attack in the U.S. the people will go for war (and Bush) : in Spain, if there is an attack, the people will take back their warriors and run. Because the U.S. is like this, you'd think that the terrorists wouldn't attack at election time, but now I think they will....because of Spain.

Bush is not going to lose, as joc said; if I woke up tomorrow morning and Kerry was president, I would be scared. Scared, that all the hard work this administration has done would go down the drain ....and scared that we would be attacked big time.

Edited April 21, 2004 by Babs

[Arashi Ravenblade]

actually wunarmdscissor i deny nothing...

[saywhat?]

aight my bad MM. but aint this

Cowards....your either part of the solution or with the terrorists....as far as im concerned if your not with us your against us and should be considered the enemy.

a bit childish.

i dont mean to start anything i just thought it was dum.

peace! with out guns

[Magikman]

Saywhat?,

Not so much childish as it is uncompromisingly rigid and woefully unproductive. You could have said as much and then explained your reasoning further, thus making your opinion one to be seriously regarded. There wouldn't have been anything wrong with disagreeing with his viewpoint, as long as you refrained from spouting a derogatory comment, that just makes matters worse.

Magikman

[Permakid]

...if I woke up tomorrow morning and Kerry was president, I would be scared. Scared, that all the hard work this administration has done would go down the drain ....and scared that we would be attacked big time.

What are you talking about?

[Stamford]

I don't think you can compare 911 and the Irish 30 yr. period.... two very different things.

No one said they wern't Babs.

This was inspired by joc's comments about the IRA and was slightly off-topic.

No one is trying to play down the horrors of 911.

The only thing linking the two are the suffering of the innocents.

One massive difference of course is the fact that many of your countrymen supported and even funded the IRA during the struggles.

[bathory]

One massive difference of course is the fact that many of your countrymen supported and even funded the IRA during the struggles

meh, noone likes Irish Americans:)

[wunarmdscissor]

actually wunarmdscissor i deny nothing...

What are you talking about arashi??? what dont you deny??

One massive difference of course is the fact that many of your countrymen supported and even funded the IRA during the struggles. 

Yeah stamford their arrogance is unbelievable.

[Mekorig]

I don't think you can compare 911 and the Irish 30 yr. period.... two very different things.

I wonder if (god forbid) a terror attack in America would sway the election. I think Bush is going to lose, but it something were to happen right before the election that might change.

That's the difference between Spain and the U.S. If there is an attack in the U.S. the people will go for war (and Bush) : in Spain, if there is an attack, the people will take back their warriors and run. Because the U.S. is like this, you'd think that the terrorists wouldn't attack at election time, but now I think they will....because of Spain.

Bush is not going to lose, as joc said; if I woke up tomorrow morning and Kerry was president, I would be scared. Scared, that all the hard work this administration has done would go down the drain ....and scared that we would be attacked big time.

There is a diference. USA get an attack for their support to Israel and the other things they made in Middle Est. Spain get attacked because Azanar was a stupid and join this absurd war. When Spain enter the war a great part of the population was against the war. Now, they get a terrorist attack because of that, so they retireto avoid another attack and to please the population demands. Aznar loose the elections because was to square to understand that.

[wunarmdscissor]

the spanish people are not cowardly.

The guy who won the elections had campaigned before the war, through the war and during the occupation against it.

Part of his manifesto was the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. The people of spain were overwhelmingly against the war in the first place. The socialist government couldve won even if the madrid attack had never happened.

It is merley the people showing the same contempt their former government showed them by going into athe war in the first place.

Although as i stated earlier that spain withdrew so soon after the bombings was also a mistake howevere it is their democratic and sovereign right to do so.

To call the 80% of spanish people who were against the war cowards is ludicrous, maybe they just arent as illeducated and insluar as you are/

[Babs]

None of you know what a 911 is!

Already other nations are pulling out of Iraq because of Spain. It has a domino effect. Everything you do affects others...affects the world! Spain has that on their conscience.

But, of course, they are probably only thinking about themselves, right now. (that is understandable). Don't get me wrong, I think it was terrible suffering for the Spaniards, but it is unacceptable to pull out, when your fellowman needs you.

In Spain, already, someone pulled a dead policeman out of an above-ground grave site and lit the corpse on fire. This policeman headed the raids on terrorist apartments after 311 and was killed. As I understand it, they killed 3 or 4 terrorists, but 3 or 4 got away. This just happened a few days ago; I assume the terrorists aren't finished with terrorizing Spain.

[Stamford]

None of you know what a 911 is!

What?

We know what 911 is and we know it has nothing to do with Iraq!!!

[Babs]

...if I woke up tomorrow morning and Kerry was president, I would be scared. Scared, that all the hard work this administration has done would go down the drain ....and scared that we would be attacked big time.

What are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

[wunarmdscissor]

None of you know what a 911 is!

Yeah no country in the world has ever suffered as much as america did that day.

BTW britain has been through a hell of a lot more than america in the last 60 years.

Everything you do affects others...affects the world!

LOL thats rich. Why dont you use a little more research and find out that it is exactly america's foreign policy for 25 years that has gotten us into this mess.

[Babs]

No country in the history of the world has had a 911.

I wonder what you would feel if a 911 came to Scotland?