New Spanish PM to Withdraw Troops from Iraq ASAP

[<bleeding_heart>]

http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/sligo/93/.../past/troubles/

From 1969-1998 Not including maimings, or the numerous deaths before.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of...2C_2001_attacks

Less if you really want to point score

Thousands dead in both cases whether it be in one large attack or houndreds of smaller attacks should not make any difference. A lot of nations lost people on September the 11th not just the US. A "oh well ours was worse" attitude is pointless. In both cases ITS THOUSANDS TOO MANY.

[stillcrazy]

Not to diminish in anyway the terrorist act and horror of 9/11

In the U.S. alone, 5000 people will die this year from auto accidents. and these numbers are down, compared to years before.

In the U.S. in 2000 15,517 people were murdered. Murder is up in this country in the past few years.

In 1999, California Infant deaths 2,787. This is only one state.

So in comparison, while 3000 died at once, the attack was minimal compared to the stats on how people die in this country.

Spain pulling out, while giving the terrorist a victory in a sense, is what the voters wanted. I don't agree with it. But I'm not in Spain.

I am more afraid of being shot in my own home or on the street, than I am of a terrorist attack.

20 and counting

Edited April 23, 2004 by stillcrazy

[wunarmdscissor]

No country in the history of the world has had a 911.

I wonder what you would feel if a 911 came to Scotland?

LOL once again im going to have to point out historical facts to an american. I am getting tired of this.

WW2 the battle of britain.

The London Blitz= In 1940 during 57 CONSECUTIVE nights around 348 bombers escorted by around 600 fighters killing over 450 people a night in london alone.

Other cities such as coventry and glasgow (in scotland by the way) suffered terribly at the hands of the german bombers.

IRA = Death toll from the irish troubles approaching 3500 alone .

That does not include the many many thousands and thousands of people who have been injured severly at the hands of this violence.

These are only 2 of the terrible thing our country alone has suffered in the last 60 years.

This doesnt include the terrorist disaster at lockerbie (in scotland as well) where another 300 innocent civilians died as well.

So dont be so arrogant as to tell us that we have not suffered as much as americans have.

[Babs]

No country had a 911.... Bang! ...out of the blue, thousands of people killed, at peacetime.

You are talking about war, Bud.

I do recall World War II., my father bombed Germany and Japen.

And, you keep referring to Americans as being dumb or stupid; the U.S. didn't get to be number 1 by being stupid.

wunarmdscissor...you just want to fight.

[Mekorig]

No country had a 911.... Bang! ...out of the blue, thousands of people killed, at peacetime.

You are talking about war, Bud.

I do recall World War II., my father bombed Germany and Japen.

And, you keep referring to Americans as being dumb or stupid; the U.S. didn't get to be number 1 by being stupid.

wunarmdscissor...you just want to fight.

Babs.....someones call me an anti-USA supporter...i dont give a *** about USA or such, but whit the 9/11 the people of USA know the type of fear that your goverment actions cause in the heart of a lot of innocent people around the world. Here is a aproximate translation (i am not soo good whit english) of a letter sended to Mr. Bush by Grabriel Garcias Marquez, a famous and respected latin-american writer, and states the piont of wiev of millons of latinos. I choose some parts because the lleter is extensive. I will put the link to the letter in spanish.

How it feel? How it feel to see how the horror explode in you backyard and no in the living roon of the house next to yours? How it feel the fears pushing in your chest, the panic cause by the strong noise, the uncontroled flames, the crumbling buildings, that terrible smell that enter to the botton of your lungs, the eyes of the inocents tha walks covered in bolood and dust?

How is to live in your own house whit the incertitude of not knowing that could happen next?(...)

How its feel the horror of the terrible pictures of the TV teel you that what happens in the fatidic day of 9/11 happens in your country and not in a far away land?

Another 11/9, but 28 years earlier, a president how was named Salvador Allende was killed resisting a coup of state that your goverment has orchested. These were also horror times, but that happens far away, in an unknow southamerican republiquet . The republiquet that were in your backyard and you never worried to ask whn your marines invaded to blood and fire to impose your points of view.

Dis you know that betewn 1824 and 1994 your country has made 73 invasion to latin american countries?

The victins were Puerto Rico, Mexico, Nicaragua, panama, Haiti, Colombia, Cuba, Honduras, Republica Dominicana, Islas Virgenes, Guatemala, Granada... (...)

For almost a century your country is in war whit almost all the world. Curiously, your geverments throw the Apocalipsis raiders in the name of liberty and democracy. But you must know that for a lot of countries in the wolrd, USA doesnt represent the liberty, but a far away and terible enemy, that only seed war, hunger, fear and destruccion. (...) How it feel when horror knock on your door for once?

How it feel the fear? How it fell, yanqui, that know that the long war finally came to your home in 9/11?

Here is the link:Letter to Mr. Bush by G.G. Marquez

[Novo]

No country had a 911.... Bang! ...out of the blue, thousands of people killed, at peacetime.

You are talking about war, Bud.

I do recall World War II., my father bombed Germany and Japen.

And, you keep referring to Americans as being dumb or stupid; the U.S. didn't get to be number 1 by being stupid.

wunarmdscissor...you just want to fight.

your right, we stole our country we bit the hand that fed us because a bunch of guys with wigs didnt want to pay taxes, then we tested on our own soldiers and attacked nations, because they had a different kind of government than us.. even if we disagree something I dont think attacking everyone or thing we do is the quickest way to attain peace on a global scale.

[wunarmdscissor]

No country had a 911.... Bang! ...out of the blue, thousands of people killed, at peacetime.

You are talking about war, Bud.

I do recall World War II., my father bombed Germany and Japen.

And, you keep referring to Americans as being dumb or stupid; the U.S. didn't get to be number 1 by being stupid. 

wunarmdscissor...you just want to fight. 

Your ignorance knows no bounds does it babs. lol

You chose again to ignore the facts on the troubles in Ireland.

NO im refering to americans like yourself as being totally arrogant and that is fuelled by a bad educational system.

[bathory]

your right, we stole our country we bit the hand that fed us because a bunch of guys with wigs didnt want to pay taxes, then we tested on our own soldiers and attacked nations, because they had a different kind of government than us.. even if we disagree something I dont think attacking everyone or thing we do is the quickest way to attain peace on a global scale.

please stop it, its embarrassing

[Babs]

wunarmdscissor... That's funny, my father was, also, a teacher; he'd disagree with you.

Edited April 25, 2004 by Babs

[saywhat?]

wunarmdscissor... That's funny, my father was, also, a teacher; he'd disagree with you.

snl-christina aguilera

do u know who my father is! blah

u mean the US #1 in a bad way right?

cuz if u mean it the other way around u my friend just scared the sh** out of me.

[TheLight]

wunarmdscissor... That's funny, my father was, also, a teacher; he'd disagree with you.

How ironic... the education system in the US doesn't qualify as good. From far. Why would be the US importing so much brain from India, Russia, Europe, North Africa, China for the HiTech jobs. Even renowed universities (Princeton, Standford, etc...) pick their PhD students from foreign countries !!! Poor people have to go in the army to get the money to pay for college, it's like a draft for the poors...

Anyway back to the point: no one else than Americans knows what was 9/11...

I think the people of Japan know, and they got something even worse: two cities were swept away (with all the civilians living there which include women and children) by two weapons of mass destruction dropped by the US army.

People of Spain just wanted to go by international laws, thus the UN. America just discarded the UN as being obsolete and non-effective at the time of going to war and what are they doing now ? Begging the UN to come help them clean the mess they created in the first place. Not to mention that by bypassing the UN, the US had to contribute a lot more money to the war which now weights on the economy recovery. Back to the Spain, they don't have the same economical power as US, and taking back troops has many motivations: abid by international laws, please public opinion, relieve the economy just to quote a few obvious ones.

TheLight

[bathory]

u mean the US #1 in a bad way right?

cuz if u mean it the other way around u my friend just scared the sh** out of me.

lesser of evils my friend:)

Why would be the US importing so much brain from India, Russia, Europe, North Africa, China for the HiTech jobs.

because they can pay them less money:P

I think the people of Japan know, and they got something even worse: two cities were swept away (with all the civilians living there which include women and children) by two weapons of mass destruction dropped by the US army.

different contexts buddy. the bombs were dropped during wartime, consider what would have happened if they didn't drop those bombs....drawn out mass conflict with japan, who would never have backed down.

9/11 out of the blue direct attack upon the civilian population

there is a difference, whether or not this is even relevant to the arguement is another matter:P

[TheLight]

Why would be the US importing so much brain from India, Russia, Europe, North Africa, China for the HiTech jobs.

because they can pay them less money:P

I think the people of Japan know, and they got something even worse: two cities were swept away (with all the civilians living there which include women and children) by two weapons of mass destruction dropped by the US army.

different contexts buddy. the bombs were dropped during wartime, consider what would have happened if they didn't drop those bombs....drawn out mass conflict with japan, who would never have backed down.

To point number #1, I don't think they're paid less. Most of these people come with MS degrees or PhD (that often they did in the US in high-ranked universities) and the average salary is 70K$ a year in HiTech jobs, 100K$ for managers. Doesn't sound like they're underpaid (by the way these numbers come from the EE times).

To point number #2, Hiroshima/Nagasaki was a different context. Yes obviously, but it's assumed that wars are fought by armies against armies not by eradicating civilians. In that aspect, the 9/11 has some similarity with the aforementioned event.

I think you just feel that 9/11 was much worse than anything else because it touched the US and that we were directly concerned. It's understandable, I'm not judging anyway, just making a point.

[bathory]

To point number #1, I don't think they're paid less. Most of these people come with MS degrees or PhD (that often they did in the US in high-ranked universities) and the average salary is 70K$ a year in HiTech jobs, 100K$ for managers. Doesn't sound like they're underpaid (by the way these numbers come from the EE times).

oops, i misunderstood what you meant, thought you refered to hitech jobs going overseas to places like india (which is happening), but ummm, i think you'll find that people from overseas are coming to america etc because that is where the jobs are... its like saying because of all the australians breaking into the US acting scene, americans can't act.

Yes obviously, but it's assumed that wars are fought by armies against armies not by eradicating civilians. In that aspect, the 9/11 has some similarity with the aforementioned event.

in that case, so does every other country in WW2 who suffered from bombing raids. However there has to be a distinction made between wartime attrocities and events such as 9/11, Spain etc imo

I think you just feel that 9/11 was much worse than anything else because it touched the US and that we were directly concerned. It's understandable, I'm not judging anyway, just making a point.

not at all, i just dislike it how people try and lump terrorism with other events by throwing them out of context. Its like comparing Camp Xray to Auschwitz

[wunarmdscissor]

wunarmdscissor... That's funny, my father was, also, a teacher; he'd disagree with you.

Says a lot.....ahem..