Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

Thermite confirmed in 911 WTC Dust Samples


acidhead

Recommended Posts

The Open Chemical Physics Journal, 2009, 2, 7-31 http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content....0001/7TOCPJ.SGM

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe

pp.7-31 (25)

Authors: Niels H. Harrit*,1, Jeffrey Farrer2, Steven E. Jones*,3, Kevin R. Ryan4, Frank M. Legge5,

Daniel Farnsworth2, Gregg Roberts6, James R. Gourley7 and Bradley R. Larsen3

1Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, Denmark

2Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT 84602, USA

3S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA

49/11 Working Group of Bloomington, Bloomington, IN 47401, USA

5Logical Systems Consulting, Perth, Western Australia

6Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Berkeley, CA 94704, USA

7International Center for 9/11 Studies, Dallas, TX 75231, USA

doi: 10.2174/1874412500902010007

Affiliation: Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, Copenhagen, DK-2100, Denmark.

Click on LINK for PDF: http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/gen.php?...6b7ab1affe86ea8

Abstract

We have discovered distinctive red/gray chips in all the samples we have studied of the dust produced by the destruction of the World Trade Center. Examination of four of these samples, collected from separate sites, is reported in this paper. These red/gray chips show marked similarities in all four samples. One sample was collected by a Manhattan resident about ten minutes after the collapse of the second WTC Tower, two the next day, and a fourth about a week later. The properties of these chips were analyzed using optical microscopy, scanning electron microscopy (SEM), X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy (XEDS), and differential scanning calorimetry (DSC). The red material contains grains approximately 100 nm across which are largely iron oxide, while aluminum is contained in tiny plate-like structures. Separation of components using methyl ethyl ketone demonstrated that elemental aluminum is present. The iron oxide and aluminum are intimately mixed in the red material. When ignited in a DSC device the chips exhibit large but narrow exotherms occurring at approximately 430 °C, far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite. Numerous iron-rich spheres are clearly observed in the residue following the ignition of these peculiar red/gray chips. The red portion of these chips is found to be an unreacted thermitic material and highly energetic.

Keywords: JScanning electron microscopy, X-ray energy dispersive spectroscopy, Differential scanning calorimetry, DSC analysis, World Trade Center, WTC dust, 9/11, Iron-rich microspheres, Thermite, Super-thermite, Energetic nanocomposites, Nano-thermite

**********************

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 238
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

  • MARAB0D

    63

  • Q24

    45

  • aquatus1

    36

  • el midgetron

    36

so what exactly does this mean?

a thermite designed to be ignited at lower temperatures is what i get from a quick read of your post acid. is that about right? or have i missed something?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

so what exactly does this mean?

a thermite designed to be ignited at lower temperatures is what i get from a quick read of your post acid. is that about right? or have i missed something?

In short, it means, an explosive agent was found in the dust samples from the destruction from the WTC complex.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In short, it means, an explosive agent was found in the dust samples from the destruction from the WTC complex.

I would imagine so...think of all the elements that were used to build it...metal wood ..drywall plaster..all the office furniture...foods....glass...

I am sure that once blown into microscopic fragments and combined with each other.....it's possible to come up with an elplosive agent.

I mean If I were to have reloading materials(for guns) in my house....and it burned down....the fire dept...would find black power residue etc. and could say that I was making bombs...doen't mean that I was...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In short, it means, an explosive agent was found in the dust samples from the destruction from the WTC complex.

That is incorrect. It means that thermitic material was found in the dust samples. Considering that you will have a thermitic reaction anytime that iron oxide is burned in the presence of aluminum, that's not a surprise. You can find similar material in most warehouse fires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is also worth pointing out that the traditional aluminium/iron oxide thermite reaction is NOT explosive, as suggested above. It does, however, produce a lot of heat.

Meow Purr :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some excerpts from the paper -

"That thermitic reactions from the red/grey chips have indeed occurred in the DSC (rising temperature method of ignition) is confirmed by the combined observation of 1) highly energetic reaction occurring at approximately 430C, 2) iron rich sphere formation so that the product must have been sufficiently hot to be molten (over 1400C for iron and iron oxide), 3) spheres, spheroids and non-spheroidal residues in which the iron content exceeds the oxygen content. Significant elemental iron is now present as expected from the thermitic reduction-oxidation reaction of aluminum and iron oxide.

The evidence for active, highly energetic thermitic material in the WTC dust is compelling"

"our observations show that the red material contains substantial amounts of aluminum, iron, mixed together very finely, In the sample soaked in MEK, we observed a clear migration and aggregation of aluminum away from the other elements and determined that elemental aluminum and iron oxide must be present. In the product collected after DSC ignition, we found spheres were which ere not initially present. Many of the spheres were iron rich and elemental iron was found in the post-ignition debris. Further, the DSC traces demonstrate that the red/gray chips react vigorously at a temperature below the melting point of aluminum and below the ignition (oxidation) point of ultra-fine grain (UFG) aluminum in air [18]. These observations remind us of nano-thermite fabricated at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory and elsewhere; available papers describe this material as an intimate mixture of UFG aluminum and iron oxide in nano-thermite composites to form pyrotechnics or explosives [19-21]. The thermite reaction involves aluminum and metal oxide, as this typical reaction with iron oxide:" (see original paper for reaction formula)

"Commercially available thermite behaves as an incendiary when ignited [6], but when the ingredients are ultra fine grain (UFG) and are intimately mixed this "nano-thermite" react very rapidly, even explosively, and is sometimes referred to as "super-thermite" [20, 22]."

"We have noted that ordinary thermite acts as an incendiary when ignited. However, when the ingredients are ultra-fine-grain and are intimately mixed, the mixture reacts very rapidly, even explosively [20]. Thus, there is a highly energetic form of thermite know as an energetic nanocomposite or "super-thermite", composed of aluminum and iron oxide with at least one component being approximately 100 nm or less, often along with silicon and carbon [19-28].......

The red layer of the red/grey chips is the most interesting in that it conations aluminum, iron and oxygen components are intimately mixed at a scale of approximately 100 nanometers (nm) or less. Now we compare a DSC trace obtained for a WTC red/grey chip with a DSC trace obtained for known super-thermite (see fig. (29)).

Ordinary thermite ignites at a much higher temperature (about 900C or above) and gives a significantly broader trace then super-thermite [21]. All these data suggest that the thermitic material found in the WTC dust is a form of nano-thermite, not ordinary (macro-) thermite."

"After igniting several red/grey chips in a DSC run to 700C, we found numerous iron-rich spheres and sheriods in the residue, indicating that a very high-temperature reaction had occurred, since the iron-rich product clearly must have been molten to form these shapes. In several spheres, elemental iron was verified since the iron content significantly exceeded the oxygen content. We conclude that a high-temperature reduction-oxidation reaction has occurred in the heated chips, namely, the thermite reaction."

"The spheroids produced by the DSC tests and by the flame test have an XEDS signature (A1, Fe, O, Si, C) which is depleted in carbon and aluminum relative to the original red material. This chemical signature strikingly matches the chemical signature of the spheroids produced by igniting commercial thermite, and also matches the signature or many of the micro-spheres found in the WTC dust [5].

"Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/grey chips we discovered int he WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is also worth pointing out that the traditional aluminium/iron oxide thermite reaction is NOT explosive, as suggested above. It does, however, produce a lot of heat.

Meow Purr :)

Hey cat...you are bursting their conspiracy bubble, Shame ON YOU!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hey cat...you are bursting their conspiracy bubble, Shame ON YOU!!!

yeah well if, ...if it's a conspiracy then I'm afraid we're looking at the zionists.

Is it a war on terrorism? or a war against any country who's a direct threat to Israel?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is incorrect. It means that thermitic material was found in the dust samples. Considering that you will have a thermitic reaction anytime that iron oxide is burned in the presence of aluminum, that's not a surprise. You can find similar material in most warehouse fires.

The paper, even the abstract, states they found "highly energetic unreacted thermitic material". Are you suggesting that an ordinary warehouse fire can produce not only a thermitic reaction but also unreacted thermitic material that when ignited produces a more dramatic reaction than conventional thermite? Or in other words, that an ordinary warehouse fire randomly creates unreacted thermitic material on-par with the latest nano-engineered thermitic compounds?

It is also worth pointing out that the traditional aluminium/iron oxide thermite reaction is NOT explosive, as suggested above. It does, however, produce a lot of heat.

Meow Purr :)

Its also worth pointing out that isn't what the paper or abstract suggests. They are not speaking about a "traditional aluminium/iron oxide thermite reaction". Maybe the part in the abstract where they note this material ignited "far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite" might have hinted at that?

I mean If I were to have reloading materials(for guns) in my house....and it burned down....the fire dept...would find black power residue etc. and could say that I was making bombs...doen't mean that I was...

If you have guns and reloading materials in your home and it catches fire, then it would most likely have been the ATF that set fire to your house to smoke you out. :lol: So, I doubt that fire dept would even investigate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The paper, even the abstract, states they found "highly energetic unreacted thermitic material". Are you suggesting that an ordinary warehouse fire can produce not only a thermitic reaction but also unreacted thermitic material that when ignited produces a more dramatic reaction than conventional thermite? Or in other words, that an ordinary warehouse fire randomly creates unreacted thermitic material on-par with the latest nano-engineered thermitic compounds?

Suggesting? Heck, I'll outright say it: Anytime you have iron oxides and aluminum in a high energy situation, you will get a variety of thermic reactions, including rough mixes, medium mixes, and even fine mixes. That's the power of chaos.

Its also worth pointing out that isn't what the paper or abstract suggests. They are not speaking about a "traditional aluminium/iron oxide thermite reaction". Maybe the part in the abstract where they note this material ignited "far below the normal ignition temperature for conventional thermite" might have hinted at that?

I'm fairly certain that Ships-cat was referring to Acidhead, who claimed that the paper was saying that an explosive agent was found in the sample.

And, of course, let's not forget how useless an explosive demolition material thermite is.

Edited by aquatus1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Suggesting? Heck, I'll outright say it: Anytime you have iron oxides and aluminum in a high energy situation, you will get a variety of thermic reactions, including rough mixes, medium mixes, and even fine mixes. That's the power of chaos.

So, your position is that even though unreacted thermitic material on-par with the lastest nano-engeneered thermite compounds was found in the dust of the WTC, that the most likely explanation is that it was randomly formed by chaos? To me thats a bit like suggesting the military grade anthrax used in the anthrax attacks was due to a random natural contamination.

If this wasn't just a 1 in a billion freak of chance, do you know of or can you offer documentation of a simular unreacted material being created under uncontroled circumstances?

I'm fairly certain that Ships-cat was referring to Acidhead, who claimed that the paper was saying that an explosive agent was found in the sample.

And, of course, let's not forget how useless an explosive demolition material thermite is.

Umm, but that is what the paper is suggesting.... Thats also what you are suggesting was cause by the randomness of chaos. It might facilitate the discussion if you guys read the paper because you seem confused about its contents.

Edited by el midgetron
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So, your position is that even though unreacted thermitic material on-par with the lastest nano-engeneered thermite compounds was found in the dust of the WTC, that the most likely explanation is that it was randomly formed by chaos? To me thats a bit like suggesting the military grade anthrax used in the anthrax attacks was due to a random natural contamination.

I'm sure it is. I'm sure you have never bothered to look into the biological complexity of anthrax, it's evolutionary history, it's genetic traceability, or how utterly different it is to a relatively simple reaction involving two very common metals and heat.

I don't know why you place so much emphasis on "unreacted". In a given chaotic situation, such as an explosion, there are going to be things that get affected, and things that don't get affected. Along with the expected chaos, you will also get instances of utterly unexpected order. That's the nature of chaos. I'm sure the firefighters who wondered who had placed a neatly folded stack of blue jeans on the back of their vehicle would never have believed, if they hadn't seen the video play-back, that the stack was blown into their vehicle from a nearby store by the explosion. It's similar to people wondering why some passports and other paper documents survived a fireball that melted metal components. That's just the way that randomness works. In an explosion, not everything burns.

So, even though you are emphasizing "unreacted!", and "nano-engineered!" (which is incorrect, incidentally. A nano-composite does not have to be nano-engineered), the simple fact of the matter is that the only thing that distinguishes one grade of thermite from another is how fine the mix is. As I said before, in a chaotic scenarion, there will be rough mixes, medium mixes, and fine mixes. Why were fine mixes found? Well, the rough mixtures would look like their base metals, the medium mixes would look like melted metal, and the fine mixes would simply be part of the powder with everything else. The difference is that powders are more likely to be blown out by the explosion than the heavier mixes, and are more likely to survive unreacted.

If this wasn't just a 1 in a billion freak of chance, do you know of or can you offer documentation of a simular unreacted material being created under uncontroled circumstances

I doubt it. It is something so common it would be like asking to document the presence of tar in a wood-burning chimney. I'm sure there is someone out there that measures such things as part of their job, but I'd have to look for it.

Umm, but that is what the paper is suggesting.... Thats also what you are suggesting was cause by the randomness of chaos. It might facilitate the discussion if you guys read the paper because you seem confused about its contents.

The paper can suggest it all it likes. The simple fact of the matter, and the paper admits it, is that nano-thermite, used as a thermobaric explosive, was not at the time a reliable technology. Today, nano-thermite can be used as a thermobaric explosive, although the explosion cause by such a device is quite obviously different in style, and easily recognizable do to its slow speed relative to a more conventional explosive. Moreover, a thermobaric bomb is not a very good demolition device. Oh, it will cause a lot of damage, but it's primary advatage is it's low rate of expansion and it's high heat, which causes a pressure wave that kills pretty much anyone in the enclosed space it detonates in (thermobaric bombs were developed to destroy enemies hidden in elaborate cave systems).

I'm sure you find the paper quite impressive, but I just keep seeing things that indicate to me that the authors are simply not familiar with the practical properties of what he is dealing with. His opinion is valid, however that does not make it correct. When it started speculating how the "super-thermite" could have been painted onto a wall, I started getting wary, although to be fair they did admit that it could also be nothing more than a protective paint coating for the wall.

When all is said and done, the presence of thermic residue is not only not surprising, it is in fact, expected. Alternatively, the use of any thermic compound for a demolition simply lacks any sort of practical value.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Before everyone gets all freaked out about this, let me tell you a little secret. I have been given reason to believe, through sources that I cannot easily verify or name, but which I suspect are verifiable and trustworthy, that these buildings were wired to implode symmetrically long before 9/11, in order to protect the surrounding buildings and inhabitants. The reason is simple. The government knew these buildings were a likely target, and had good reason to believe that if they collapsed asymmetrically, it would endanger far more people, than if they wired them, in the event of an attack. They may also have been required to do this, in order to obtain insurance on these structures.

Long ago I dreamed of these attacks in amazing detail, although I didn't know the meaning of my dream until that day. The dream was extremely accurate, and I have detailed it both here and on other sites. It is because of this curious dream, that I began to study the various conspiracy theories, looking for clues to a source. This search led me to the chemistry, and I too concluded what these scientists have now apparently verified. However, I have no reason to believe that this was a false flag type of operation. There are plenty of other reasons for the buildings to have been wired. I do believe they knew that an attack was likely, but there's no evidence beyond this, to conclude a false flag operation.

[Posted Mar 6th, 2006, 6:59 PM]

Ok gang, here's the dream I've been trying to get permission to publish here. The date and general contents can be verified by at least two methods. Take the time to read it. See if you can figure out what event in U.S. history it refers to. Obviously this individual didn't know ahead of time what would happen, but clearly the dream was given for a purpose and a reason. The complexity is what deeply interests me.

3/15/96 The Collapsing Structure

Chapter 1

I dreamed that I was with a faceless friend, and we were outside, in what seemed to be residential suburbs. We were standing in green grass, but there were houses close by. I could tell that it was late in the day, or in the morning by the low light level. In the far distance, I saw a biplane with a wire attached to it, climbing toward the sky above the treetops. It was headed straight up. The trees appeared to be losing their leaves, so I assumed it was Fall. I watched as the small plane climbed higher and higher.

The plane continued straight up, until I saw what looked like a building attached to the other end of the wire, rising above the treetops. It didn't appear to be very solid, as if it were just the shell or superstructure of a building, and it was unfolding from my left toward the sky, as the plane took it higher and higher. It was almost as if it was inflating. It was magnificent and beautiful. The complete outline was covered with straight lines of pink and blue neon. It had a large gable-type roof, which I felt symbolized the roof of the sky.

Finally the plane pulled the building completely upright, until it stood erect far above the horizon. It was huge, much taller and larger than any building I had ever seen, but as I said, it was curiously transparent because you could see the sky behind it, and the outline was completely trimmed in this curious neon lighting. I remember feeling astonished, because I had never seen anything like this before. I felt inspired and speechless because of the building’s height and beauty.

As I continued to watch, I saw the plane begin to veer to the right, as if the momentum of the unfolding process was carrying it to the other side. The building then began to collapse in the direction opposite from where it had opened up. It was as if the momentum was too much for the plane to control, and the building continued to collapse or deflate. The plane started down and before long there was a loud explosion, and we knew that the plane had crashed.

Chapter 2

The next thing I remember, I seemed to have been transported suddenly to a city, with buildings and people. My first thought was that I had been taken to the place adjacent to where the collapsed building was, but my instincts told me that I was somewhere else, farther south, because the trees were greener. I felt that I was in Washington D.C., or someplace similar, because there were monuments everywhere, and some I felt I recognized. The light level was low also, so I assumed it was either morning or evening, the same as where I had been previously. The streets were wet, and I believed that this was due to the plane crash I had just witnessed, and the resulting fire. The people were rushing to and fro in fear. How I had been transported so suddenly to this place, troubled me. I remember seeing a school bus on the street, that seemed to be in a rush. Everyone, including myself, were panicked as they made their way in the direction of what I guessed was the plane crash. It didn’t make sense to me, however, as I could tell that I wasn’t in the same place as where I had seen the building collapse. Suddenly, darkness came, as if the day had changed to night in the blink of an eye.

Chapter 3

Confidential

Conclusion

The mystery man I was with never spoke to me, although I remember speaking to him about how marvelous the building was before it collapsed, and the possible purpose of the plane when we first saw it. I wondered if he was my guardian angel, because I felt like he was showing me the future. To date, I have never had a dream like this, where I felt this presence standing beside me, showing me something.

Edited by Raptor Witness
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sure it is. I'm sure you have never bothered to look into the biological complexity of anthrax, it's evolutionary history, it's genetic traceability, or how utterly different it is to a relatively simple reaction involving two very common metals and heat.

How different is that than suggesting that chaos formed nano-compositions with the exact chemical signature as thermite? Not just once randomly, but in all likelyhood millions of times, without variation.

I don't know why you place so much emphasis on "unreacted". In a given chaotic situation, such as an explosion, there are going to be things that get affected, and things that don't get affected. Along with the expected chaos, you will also get instances of utterly unexpected order. That's the nature of chaos.

Was that what has been observed? Not that has been documented. Rather, it seems this time "chaos" produced millions of uniform examples of the same material. No variation in compsition and no variation in that composition's ratio. As well, chaos also perfectly created these particles aligned, uniformed layers. Where is the unexpected order?

So, even though you are emphasizing "unreacted!", and "nano-engineered!" (which is incorrect, incidentally. A nano-composite does not have to be nano-engineered), the simple fact of the matter is that the only thing that distinguishes one grade of thermite from another is how fine the mix is. As I said before, in a chaotic scenarion, there will be rough mixes, medium mixes, and fine mixes. Why were fine mixes found? Well, the rough mixtures would look like their base metals, the medium mixes would look like melted metal, and the fine mixes would simply be part of the powder with everything else. The difference is that powders are more likely to be blown out by the explosion than the heavier mixes, and are more likely to survive unreacted.

That ignors why simular or varient "mixes" of elements, or mixes of varient ratios are not present. Rather you have uniform mixes of all the same compsition and all the same ratio. Its completely contrary to your arguments about chaos.

As for nano-technology, I won't pretend to be an expert, however ultra-finegrain-materials are cutting edge science. Your explanation that these properties were not only randomly produced but uniformly produced over and over by pure random chance leaves something to be desired.

"Based on these observations, we conclude that the red layer of the red/gray chips we have discovered in the WTC dust is active, unreacted thermitic material, incorporating nanotechnology, and is a highly energetic pyrotechnic or explosive material."

The paper can suggest it all it likes. The simple fact of the matter, and the paper admits it, is that nano-thermite, used as a thermobaric explosive, was not at the time a reliable technology.

No it doesn't.

"We find the answer in a report by Gash et al. dated April 2000, seventeen months before the tragedy:

“Nanostructured composites are multicomponent materials in which at least one of the component phases has one or more dimensions (length, width, or thickness) in the nanometer size range, defined as 1 to 100 nm. Energetic nanocomposites are a class of material that have both a fuel and oxidizer component intimately mixed and where at least one of the component phases meets the size definition. A sol-gel derived pyrotechnic is an example of an energetic nanocomposite, in which metal-oxide nanoparticles react with metals or other fuels in very exothermic reactions. The fuel resides within the pores of the solid matrix while the oxidizer comprises at least a portion of the skeletal ma-trix.” “As an example, energetic nanocomposites of FexOy and metallic aluminum are easily synthesized. The compositions are stable, safe and can be readily ignited” [19].

We gather that the technology to make materials remarkably fitting the characterization of the red chips was available by April 2000. In the same report, the scientists noted that “polymers” can be added to the nanocomposite: “This sol-gel method allows for the addition of insoluble materials (e.g., metals or polymers) to the viscous sol, just before gelation, to produce a uniformly distributed and energetic nanocomposite upon gelation. Al metal (as a fine powder, ~6μm diameter) was added to some FexOy gel syntheses just before gelation to produce FexOy /Al(s) pyrotechnic nanocomposites…. These nanocomposites were subsequently processed to make both a xerogel and aerogel of the material…. The pyrotechnic nanocomposite can be ignited using a propane torch” [19].

Indeed, the red chips can be ignited using a torch and they have properties of a pyrotechnic nanocomposite. All the required ingredients are present – aluminum, iron, oxygen, silicon, and carbon – and they are incorporated in such a way that the chip forms (and sometimes ejects) very hot material when ignited. The Gash report describes FTIR spectra which characterize this energetic material. We have performed these same tests and will report the results elsewhere. We note that polymers in the matrix may be responsible for absorption of MEK and the subsequent swelling which we observed [29].

A report on an April 2001 conference discloses who was known to be working on such explosives at that time: The 221st National Meeting of the American Chemical Society held during April 2001 in San Diego featured a symposium on Defense Applications of Nanomaterials. One of the 4 sessions was titled nanoenergetics…. This session provided a good representation of the breadth of work ongoing in this field, which is roughly 10 years old.… At this point in time, all of the military services and some DOE and academic laboratories have active R&D programs aimed at exploiting the unique properties of nanomaterials that have potential to be used in energetic formulations for advanced explosives…. nanoenergetics hold promise as useful ingredients for the thermobaric (TBX) and TBX-like weapons, particularly due to their high degree of tailorability with regards to energy release and impulse management [20]. The feature of “impulse management” may be significant. It is possible that formulations may be chosen to have just sufficient percussive effect to achieve the desired fragmentation while minimizing the noise level."

although to be fair they did admit that it could also be nothing more than a protective paint coating for the wall.

umm, no they didn't. They actually described the differences and concluded by saying the question of if the material could be common "paint" would require scientific data to even "merit consideration".

"If a paint were devised that incorporated these very energetic materials, it would be highly dangerous when dry and most unlikely to receive regulatory approval for building use. To merit consideration, any assertion that a prosaic substance such as paint could match the characteristics we have described would have to be accompanied by empirical demonstration using a sample of the proposed material, including SEM/XEDS and DSC analyses."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is incorrect. It means that thermitic material was found in the dust samples. Considering that you will have a thermitic reaction anytime that iron oxide is burned in the presence of aluminum, that's not a surprise. You can find similar material in most warehouse fires.

You're right similar material is found in building fires....

This thermite is of the manufactured variety though. I'm not supporting a conspiracy theory or anything but the discovery of this type of thermite in the dust does seem 'odd' although there are any number of reasons why it may have been in the building.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One thing that really disturbs me about this particular subject is the complete lack of official investigation from NIST who carried out the WTC collapse studies.

The National Fire Protection Association of the U.S. who set minimum standards and codes for fire prevention and investigation state in their document NFPA 921 “Cause Determination”: -

“Unusual residues might remain from the initial fuel. Those residues could arise from
thermite
, magnesium, or other pyrotechnic materials.”

NIST’s FAQ provides the following question and response: -

Q. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) “slices through steel like a hot knife through butter.”

A. NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

Here is what NIST had to say when questioned further: -

Reporter: “..what about that letter where NIST said it didn't look for evidence of explosives?”

NIST: “Right, because there was no evidence of that.”

Reporter: “But how can you know there's no evidence if you don't look for it first?”

NIST: “If you're looking for something that isn't there, you're wasting your time... and the taxpayers’ money.”

All in all then, it is seen that the official NIST investigation finds applying the NFPA fire codes to be “wasting your time”. And as I started out with – that, even on its own, is disturbing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As a Chemist I can fully agree on thermite action being enhanced by nano-size of the mixture components. The report implies, that the steel structures were preloaded with thermite charges, which provided for the rapid collapse of the buildings when initiated by the burning airplane fuel.

However as a Chemist, practicing in the area of mining and extractive technologies, I can note the strange nature of the sampling program. Why would a Manhattan resident be collecting a random dust sample? Who can certify that all four samples studied were in fact originating from WTC site? What weight proportion the samples must constitute to the overall weight of the rubble and why were they dispersed so widely that became available for random sampling? This latter question points to the fact that the total charge, needed to weaken, say, 10 structural columns locally, hardly exceeds 20-30 kilograms per building (given the efficiency of thermite mixture) - if the reacted material was 99%, then we are talking about the residual 300 grams of unreacted mixture, which was supposed to be localized nearby the damaged areas of the columns, not dispersed evenly over thousands tons of rubble (as random sampling of 4 only points must suggest). In my view this report is a hoax.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my view this report is a hoax.

A hoax by authors with such credentials, two of whom have lost their jobs for asserting their views - seems fairly high stakes for the sake of a hoax. From following the development of the Scholars for 9/11 group, I am certain the paper was written in all sincerity and seriousness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could this be explained by insects being coated in high explosive residue?

Thermite Termites.. perhaps?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A hoax by authors with such credentials, two of whom have lost their jobs for asserting their views - seems fairly high stakes for the sake of a hoax. From following the development of the Scholars for 9/11 group, I am certain the paper was written in all sincerity and seriousness.

Hang on! Please, just find ANY credentials from in the offered list :

Authors: Niels H. Harrit*,1, Jeffrey Farrer2, Steven E. Jones*,3, Kevin R. Ryan4, Frank M. Legge5,

Daniel Farnsworth2, Gregg Roberts6, James R. Gourley7 and Bradley R. Larsen3

1Department of Chemistry, University of Copenhagen, Denmark

2Department of Physics and Astronomy, Brigham Young University, Provo, UT 84602, USA

3S&J Scientific Co., Provo, UT, 84606, USA

49/11 Working Group of Bloomington, Bloomington, IN 47401, USA

5Logical Systems Consulting, Perth, Western Australia

6Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth, Berkeley, CA 94704, USA

7International Center for 9/11 Studies, Dallas, TX 75231, USA

doi: 10.2174/1874412500902010007

Where are these credentials??? Personally I can not see any at all - this is just a list of names.

There is no such a respected scientist in this world, who would find possible to make a conclusion in such a serious matter on the basis of some suspicious 4 samples, collected by God only knows whom from God only knows where! A serious research suggests first of all a comprehensive SAMPLING PROGRAM, carried in accordance to standard procedures, used for obtaining representative samples. It is enough to look at how the samples were collected, to see that this is in fact a hoax. If you do not understand that 4 samples is not enough for concluding anything at all, then I suggest you to complete some science-related tertiary education.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add about what it looks like: some conspiracy fans got hold of a pinch of thermite material (I can make it in 5 minutes time) and took the samples to a Chemist, who watched them through the microscope, dropping some MEK on the the slide. Then the joint choir of Physicists, Astronomerss, Engineers, business consultants and Architects (none of them having any idea of what Chemistry is) "approved" his findings and started propagating the results with the sole purpose to become just a bit more famous than they can become if operating each in his own professional field... A bunch of losers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hang on! Please, just find ANY credentials from in the offered list :

Check the members list on the link I gave for Scholars for 9/11. The authors have Ph.D Chemistry, Ph.D. Physics, Ph.D. Materials Science amongst other credentials between them.

There is no such a respected scientist in this world, who would find possible to make a conclusion in such a serious matter on the basis of some suspicious 4 samples, collected by God only knows whom from God only knows where!

The paper does attempt to describe the collection process but I understand what you are saying. I’m not sure a firm conclusion is actually drawn other than that thermetic material was present in the WTC buildings.

A serious research suggests first of all a comprehensive SAMPLING PROGRAM, carried in accordance to standard procedures, used for obtaining representative samples.

I agree that would have been highly preferable. So what do you think of the ‘non-study’ carried out by the official NIST investigation that I detailed above?

Also out of interest, have you viewed the thermite resembling substance flowing from the failure initiation level of WTC2 in the minutes prior to its collapse?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Reporter: "..what about that letter where NIST said it didn't look for evidence of explosives?"

NIST: "Right, because there was no evidence of that."

Reporter: "But how can you know there's no evidence if you don't look for it first?"

NIST: "If you're looking for something that isn't there, you're wasting your time... and the taxpayers' money."

lol classic!

Why would a Manhattan resident be collecting a random dust sample?

People do that, they collect momentos and keep-sakes during historical events. After the Hindenburg disaster the wreckage was picked at by the locals who took "souvenirs" of the event from the debris. It not at all suprising dust samples from 911 were saved.

What weight proportion the samples must constitute to the overall weight of the rubble and why were they dispersed so widely that became available for random sampling? This latter question points to the fact that the total charge, needed to weaken, say, 10 structural columns locally, hardly exceeds 20-30 kilograms per building (given the efficiency of thermite mixture) - if the reacted material was 99%, then we are talking about the residual 300 grams of unreacted mixture, which was supposed to be localized nearby the damaged areas of the columns, not dispersed evenly over thousands tons of rubble (as random sampling of 4 only points must suggest). In my view this report is a hoax.

So now you are not only a chemist but also a demolition expert? I have seen other "experts" on this very forum argue it would have taken weeks to haul in the amount of explosives needed to demo the WTC. Yet according to you, all it would have taken was a large backpack worth of material? Very interesting.......

There is no such a respected scientist in this world, who would find possible to make a conclusion in such a serious matter on the basis of some suspicious 4 samples, collected by God only knows whom from God only knows where! A serious research suggests first of all a comprehensive SAMPLING PROGRAM, carried in accordance to standard procedures, used for obtaining representative samples. It is enough to look at how the samples were collected, to see that this is in fact a hoax. If you do not understand that 4 samples is not enough for concluding anything at all, then I suggest you to complete some science-related tertiary education.

LOL, I can tell you one thing, there were three organizations who didn't even bother trying to find samples, the Commision, Slopular Mechanics and NIST. What you are failing to recognize, is that sample collecting protocall cannot travel time. Sure, if the very first thought on everyones minds was to look for answers, and collect evidence then maybe some pencil necked brainiac would have collected samples "by the book". Yet, not the Commision, Fema, slopular Mechanics or NIST answered that call. Thanks to the repeated "official" failures to properly document and investigate 9/11, we are stuck having to "trust" ordinary folks to come forward with evidence they collected.

And whats your best response to such necessity? That it must be part of a "conspiracy". That all four samples (heck, that all New yorkers) and all the people doing this research are part of your conspiracy. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Midge - this is like Hamlet said "words, words, words". I am not a demolition expert, but I do work with thermite and related mixtures when I do pyrometallurgy - like obtaining ferrotitanium or ferrovanadium alloys from the oxides. I even know how to weld steel with this thermite powder, not saying how it works. This is not an explosive, and hardly it can be used to demolish a building. All it can be used for is to WEAKEN the steel structures by applying local heat in excess of 2000C. The product of combustion of such powder can indeed contain microscopic spheres of Iron, but the absolutely main chunk of it is a solid molten metal piece - and these pieces were supposed TO BE SEEN on the steel columns which were removed from site lately.

When thermite burns, the flame seen is absolutely white with bluish tinge; also it produces specific white smoke (Aluminium Oxide). This smoke rather quickly solidifies and coats all nearby surfaces with a specific greyish dust of Aluminium Oxide - and this one is much easier to detect, than the nanograms of unreacted mixture in the rubble. The result must look like a bend of a steel column, having on it a large "droplet" of steel with the areas around coated with grey dust. Very specific damage. But this would only happen if the thermite mixture burns in a slow mode - if it is a "nano-size" mixture, it would burn so rapidly, that disperses itself without damaging the steel at all! It would be just like an old magnesium photo flash - it simply has no time to damage the steel, as one needs time to heat the columns to weaken them.

Usage of thermite as an "explosive" contradicts common sense, because as such it is far inferior to TNT or simple dynamite, hexagen and other common explosives.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.