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crystal sage

'Brain death' under scrutiny

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crystal sage

I have often suspected that sometimes machines are switched off too soon in the haste for spare parts.....

http://www.theage.com.au/national/brain-de...90407-9zoc.html

VICTORIA'S Health Services Commissioner is investigating whether a Lalor father of three was misdiagnosed brain dead at the Royal Melbourne Hospital seven years ago.

Costa Statovski's daughter, Joanna Statovski, told The Age last year that when she and her siblings were called to the hospital to see their father after a fall in 2002, two doctors — including a neurosurgeon — told them he was dead.

But after they said their goodbyes and watched doctors turn off his ventilator, Mr Statovski started to breathe, his daughter said. He was rushed off to surgery and lived in a vegetative state for another 17 months before dying of organ failure and other complications.

The case, which the Royal Melbourne Hospital has refused to comment on, could become Australia's first public example of brain-death misdiagnosis.

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crystal sage

Brain Death: Is That Dead Enough?

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~mbernste/ethics.braindeath.html

there was a dispute in England among anethesiologists because of the reaction of brain dead patients during the organ retrieval process. Apparently if no anesthetic is used patients react to the pain of incisions by trying to move away from the scaple. At the moment the scalple cuts , the patients blood pressure and heartbeat increase dramatically as well. This is well documented medically but not commonly known by the public. We certainly were never informed of it. Had we been informed we would never have consented to organ retreival and would have let our son die naturally.

I called the organ retrieval team in BC to see if they had used any anesthetic during the procedures on our son. I was told that they do not because the patient would not be considered brain dead if anesthetic were neccessary. The procedure would be considered euthanasia, which is illegal under Canadian Law. They acknowledged the fact that patients do react during the procedure but likened the movement to that of a chicken when it's head has been cut off. You can imagine how this analogy was recieved.

I feel great sympathy for people requiring organ transplants. I can understand the negative effect on the number of organs retrieved, if the above information became common knowlege. As a parent, I feel like I have unwittingly subjected my son to unknown pain. I feel that we were deliberately mislead. The only reason I didn't pursue this legally is because of the devastating effects it would have had on other family members. However that situation will change within the next few years. When it does, I intend to lobby to have this situation corrected

If the Brain dead body reacts during organ retrieval... is it actually brain dead??? :huh:

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crystal sage

This too is an interesting comment...

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~mbernste/ethics.braindeath.html

What strikes me is that many people, in saying that brain death is "real" death, often contradict themselves by stating that it is cruel to keep someone here on earth indefinitely. The person is either here or not; if dead, the life support machines are not prolonging anything. One thing I hear often when people say brain death is real death, is that the person's soul is no longer there, just the body. While I agree that humans have a spiritual soul, the body and soul are not separate. We are "embodied souls"; the body and soul are intrinsically united. How can the body continue to breathe, the heart beat, and blood flow to the organs, keeping them healthy, if the person is not alive? Machines cannot do all this work: they can pump air into the person and can stimulate the heart to beat, but they cannot cause the exchange of oxygen to happen at the tissue level. Eventually, when the person does die, no machine in the world can keep this process going. Does this not tell us that there is something more to death than mere "brain death"?

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crystal sage

I have read elsewhere that there are brain cells all over the body... Not just the head...... there is much written on the Abdominal brain... ( the feeling centre)

Abdominal Brain.. Autism.., ..the emotional centre

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...aded&start=

The Abdominal Brain and Enteric Nervous System

http://www.meridianinstitute.com/ceu/ceu12abd.html

Note.. many of the spiritual writings speak of the link of the soul to the abdominal region...

The soul does not leave from the Head brain... but from the abdominal region....

Some gory stories here....about bodies surviving for a time without a brain...still feeling...

http://www.wintersteel.com/Life_Without_Brain.html

Any doctor knows that when the head is separated from the human body, the heart inside of this body still continues functioning for some time. It means that agonies of the body are still possible after decapitation, but it's generally believed that a headless body cannot perform movements. Once the St.Petersburg press reported about a man who gathered mushrooms in the forest and found an explosive device. The man took the devilish device; and an explosion that sounded next tore his head off. Witnesses saw that the decapitated mushroomer managed somehow to walk 200 meters more, at that his 3-meter way was along a narrow plank across a brook.

One thing for sure... anesthetics should be used during organ harvesting... as the body can still feel it....

:unsure2: Would pain killers still work without a brain to register it?

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/brain.html

On the other hand, he points out, the cells in his study were damaged but not dead–so some of the damage might be reversible with sleep.

Neuroscientists Joel Benington, PhD, of St. Bonaventure University, and Craig Heller, PhD, of Stanford University, were among the first to suggest that energy restoration in the brain might be a function of sleep. They focused on glycogen, a form of glucose that provides energy to localized brain cells when they need a short-term boost.

Other research suggests that sleep may contribute to neurogenesis, or the formation of new nerve cells in the brain.

For decades, scientists believed that animals and humans were born with all the brain cells they would ever have. Over the past 30 years, though, neuroscientists have chipped away at that theory, finding evidence of new brain cell growth first in adult rats, then in primates, and finally, in the late 1990s, in humans–particularly in an area of the hippocampus called the dentate gyrus.

But recent evidence shows that sleep deprivation can impede these new neurons' growth.

Maybe after a time... the combined effort of the life support system.. specialized brain restoration nutrition... and nature's natural healing ability... may eventually restore damage to the brain..

How many stories are we getting now of people who have been in coma for years suddenly waking up....? There are enough...

these are probably the ones who have had the best care...

Before we didn't realize that neurons.. brains regenerate... so we gave up too soon...

More study should be done on this...

Especially now that we have other sources of organs.. using stem cells... etc...

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/brain_b...inds_neuron.htm

linked-image

The most current research suggests that neural stem cells can generate many, if not all, of the different types of neurons found in the brain and the nervous system. Learning how to manipulate these stem cells in the laboratory into specific types of neurons could produce a fresh supply of brain cells to replace those that have died or been damaged.

Therapies could also be created to take advantage of growth factors and other signaling mechanisms inside the brain that tell precursor cells to make new neurons. This would make it possible to repair, reshape, and renew the brain from within.

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

Weird...much later after posting here I watched the latest House episode... and it was about a patient who was wrongly considered brain dead and they were just about to harvest his organs when Dr House stepped in.. and saved him... It appears that he was in contact with some 'rat pee' that caused some disease... called (Lemierre's syndrome) that cause some brain abscesses and virtually stopped brain function...

Treatment is with penicillin or tetracycline.

There have been reports of "house dogs" contracting leptospirosis ... An outbreak in an inner city environment has been linked to contact with rat urine. ...

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crystal sage

Acupuncture for the brain to re awaken it??????

http://www.thetole.org/BrainComaTreatmentCure.html

They use it to treat Autism too....

this certainly is interesting... and for Acupuncture Cerebral Palsy Miracle Cure Malaysia

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

Coma woman woken by husband's 'rollicking' as doctors were about to switch off life-support machine

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-51...rt-machine.html

When doctors told him they might have to switch off her lifesupport machine, he sprang into action.

Holding his wife's hand, he told her: "You start fighting, don't you dare give up on me now. I've had enough, stop mucking around and start breathing. Come back to me."

Two hours later she started breathing on her own.

Within five days Mrs Sullivan's ventilator was switched off and she regained consciousness.

Yesterday she said she remembered her husband berating her.

You hear so many stories of people in Comas who can hear everything that is going on around them... stories about people coming back from being dead and hearing every thing...

when people mysteriously come back after being diagnosed as brain dead.. they too have stories to tell...

:lol:;)B)

Back to those thought reading machines they are working on last year... ]

Mind Reading - FMRI - Machine that Reads Your Thoughts - 60 Minutes

... wouldn't they be useful here in the 'Brain Death scenario... ???

No wonder the spirit of some of those organ donors seem to possess or haunt those recipients...

http://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/in...php?topic=18249 They call it Cell Memory...

In the old days, they would have said it was the spirit part of the soul of the donor was still attached...

Edited by crystal sage

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schizoidwoman

When I was a baby I was on a ventilator and my parents were told that they should switch if off as there was absolutely no hope of a full recovery for me. Against all the advice, they chose to leave me plugged in and the day after they were told "there's no hope", I regained consciousness and started breathing on my own. Personally, I'm glad my folks did their own thing!

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dorto
When I was a baby I was on a ventilator and my parents were told that they should switch if off as there was absolutely no hope of a full recovery for me. Against all the advice, they chose to leave me plugged in and the day after they were told "there's no hope", I regained consciousness and started breathing on my own. Personally, I'm glad my folks did their own thing!

yes its all about money. doctors suck, they want money and life support costs alot of money if you dont pay up they take your feeding and breathing tube away..

life is life, obviousely the person is still there and miracles happen. why cut a miracle short...god obviousely wants them to live even if theyre not exaxtly having a type of life anyone would chose as a quality life... my life stinks, i dont have a friends, a job, anyone,i have no money and cant take care of myself and its really bad does that mean i should stop feeding myself or chewing food because my life stinks and its bad life quality(im a young woman who can barely walk, get up steps, lift things, im trapped with a body of a 90 year old crippled woman, i have pain every single day every minute, i get laughed at in public for walking strange) people my age go out clubbing and start careers and finish their college and graduate education and go on dates. and i have to sit home with a daily challenge of trying to use the bathroom or shower or dress, i cant hold shopping bags or shop. even sitting hurts so i force myself

theres people 70 years older then me who are more active and healthier then me daily. although not alot i guess you get old and get all sorts of health troubles but alot of seniors are healthy and active daily and go out alot

they say oh the person dosnt want to live on a bed not going about their day.. so what death is different they dont want to die. many people live every day in horrible conditions, paralized people, chronic psychotic people, mentally disabled people, blind, deaf people, people with amputated limbs. does that mean they want to die because their quality of life is little.

nobody would chose to be them but still they want to live

look at michael j fox, he moves every second of the day, its been like a decade since he stayed still and didnt shake or have limb problems..most people would not imagine coping with that. his feet crunch up and he has to wear hard shoes to straighten the feet.thats a bad life to have but people dont get euthanized over that

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theGhost_and_theDarkness
Brain Death: Is That Dead Enough?

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~mbernste/ethics.braindeath.html

If the Brain dead body reacts during organ retrieval... is it actually brain dead??? :huh:

If a persons reflexes are still working, then they are not considered brain dead. . .as one of the parts of diagnosing brain death is no evidence of reflex actions or brain function. There are things that can mimic brain death. . .some of these problems will leave a person with irreversible brain damage, and they will not be able to function, and withdrawal from life support is generally recommended. The diagnoses of brain death is not something that's taken lightly from the medical community.

When the brain and the brain stem stop showing any signs of function, it is, pretty much, the same as a normal dead persons brain. This is called "brain death". It is IRREVERSIBLE and must be determined as such by two different physicians and many different tests. The person is being kept alive by machines, and they look very much alive. . .but nothing is going on in their brain. There is a difference between having slight brain function and having none at all. If someone is declared brain dead with slight brain function, then a lawsuit could be filed against the physicians that diagnosed the person with brain death.

Vegetables and coma patients still have brain activity. . .they are considered "alive" (and these are the people that 'come back'. . .brain dead individuals do not), though physicians may recommend them being taken off life support if there is no hope of recovery. . .though, I'll admit, sometimes they are wrong and there IS a hope. With brain dead individuals, there is no hope. They are dead. That's it.

Edited by theGhost_and_theDarkness

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crystal sage
If a persons reflexes are still working, then they are not considered brain dead. . .as one of the parts of diagnosing brain death is no evidence of reflex actions or brain function. There are things that can mimic brain death. . .some of these problems will leave a person with irreversible brain damage, and they will not be able to function, and withdrawal from life support is generally recommended. The diagnoses of brain death is not something that's taken lightly from the medical community.

When the brain and the brain stem stop showing any signs of function, it is, pretty much, the same as a normal dead persons brain. This is called "brain death". It is IRREVERSIBLE and must be determined as such by two different physicians and many different tests. The person is being kept alive by machines, and they look very much alive. . .but nothing is going on in their brain. There is a difference between having slight brain function and having none at all. If someone is declared brain dead with slight brain function, then a lawsuit could be filed against the physicians that diagnosed the person with brain death.

Vegetables and coma patients still have brain activity. . .they are considered "alive" (and these are the people that 'come back'. . .brain dead individuals do not), though physicians may recommend them being taken off life support if there is no hope of recovery. . .though, I'll admit, sometimes they are wrong and there IS a hope. With brain dead individuals, there is no hope. They are dead. That's it.

then in these cases...

http://www-hsc.usc.edu/~mbernste/ethics.braindeath.html there was a dispute in England among anethesiologists because of the reaction of brain dead patients during the organ retrieval process. Apparently if no anesthetic is used patients react to the pain of incisions by trying to move away from the scaple. At the moment the scalple cuts , the patients blood pressure and heartbeat increase dramatically as well. This is well documented medically but not commonly known by the public.

were they misdiagnosed as brain dead????

OPO Official Addresses the Alleged Premature Organ Retrieval Actions of a Transplant Physician

http://www.kidneytimes.com/article.php?id=20070820204155

Non-heartbeating organ donation: clinical process and fundamental issues

http://bja.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/94/4/474

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

http://classic.aacn.org/AACN/jrnlccn.nsf/0...50?OpenDocument

The term can be misleading because it implies that only the brain is dead and that everything else is alive. It also implies that more than one type of death exists.36

At Children’s Hospital in Denver, three babies recently had successful heart transplants from neurologically damaged donors who were not brain dead. The donors were removed from the ventilator in the operating suite, and their hearts were harvested within minutes after asystole.

Many brain-dead patients retain neurologic functions such as the regulated secretion of hypothalmic hormones.

http://www.aapsonline.org/newsoftheday/0042

Death statutes require the irreversible cessation of circulation and respiration or the irreversible cessation of brain functions. In the three controversial Denver cases, cessation of heartbeat was not irreversible; the hearts started up again after transplantation. One baby’s heart had been stopped for only 75 seconds. The only reason the donor could not have been resuscitated was the “do not resuscitate” order. It is not known how long a heart has to be stopped before “autoresuscitation” is impossible (Bernat JL. N Engl J Med 2008;359:670-673).

“The reason it is ethical [to take the organs] cannot be that we are convinced they are really dead,” they write. “Irreversibility” means a “choice not to reverse.”

:unsure::hmm::huh:

Accommodation to cross-cultural conflicts “has limits when it comes to real costs to others and society,” write Applbaum et al. Specifically, the definition of death is “not a matter of individual choice controlled by an advance directive or by medical surrogates

Would you allow someone the power to decide whether to resuscitate you or not... I can imagine someone harrassing a timid person about the offering organs.. or some shifty person pretending to have authority and accepting bribes to hasten one off their mortal coil....

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crystal sage

Some interesting arguments here...

http://www.aapsonline.org/newsoftheday/0042

do individuals have full responsibility for their dependents? Do not individuals have full ownership of themselves and their property? Do individuals also not have full entitlement to decisions regarding their dependents? If some say “No” to this last, then who does? The State? Well, I say a resounding NO to that!

Finally, concern by some of the view that “rights and ethical principles emanate from ’society” and can be changed by the accepted authorities in case of ‘need’ ”, shows that the pseudoconcept of “rights” is fraught with problems. And the fact that someone has a need can never imply that some other person must be compelled to supply such need,

:unsure2:

I keep thinking about how human rights have been violated .. for example with the Vaccination laws... where in some cases you have no legal right to refuse a vaccination...

How long will it take for governments to also take over the rights of a malfunctioning body.. eg.. when it is in a vegetative state or long term coma... almost brain dead.. or about to demise from some other cause.. ... using probability. percentages as a guidline.. actuarial charts.. as a criteria for taking over the ownership of your body and harvesting your organs to someone medically more worthy... more viable than you...

They decide that you have little chance of survival and make the choice for you...

Or in the case of a Jane Doe... if there is no one to stand up for their rights.. will they say the body belongs to the state.. has valuable organs... little chance of survival... and then simply begin harvesting..

It appears you do not have to be considered brain dead to be considered ready for harvesting...

the horror stories I am reading here....

http://www.aapsonline.org/newsoftheday/0042

Worse than any movie I have seen...

“Brain death” never was and never will be true death. This has been known by neurologists and organ transplanters since the beginning of the multi-billlion industry.

Is this true???

Organs are obtained for transplantation by first getting a DNR order, then taking the patient off life support and wait until the patient is without a pulse (NOT WITHOUT A HEART BEAT!). At some time in the past they waited 10 minutes, then shortened the time to 5 minutes, then 4, then 2 and now in the NEJM the waiting time is only 1.25 minutes until they cut out the baby’s heart.

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crystal sage

Then there are drugs that can mimic brain death...

http://www.braindeath.org/clinical.htm

The most impressive confounder of brain death is hypothermia. The diagnosis of brain death cannot be reliably made until the core temperature has reached 32°C. (It has led to the dictum "a patient is not dead until the patient is warm and dead.") Patients with marked hypothermia have lost the ability to shiver, feel as cold as a toad, often display tachycardia, and may have lost all brain stem reflexes when the temperatures dip into the 28°C range. Accidental hypothermia is frequent and often involves young survivors of mountaineering accidents or rescues from submersion into ice water. Occasionally hypothermia is additionally associated with ingestion of drugs such as opioids, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, phenothiazines, tricyclic antidepressants, and Lithium but exposure to cold is necessary. None of these patients should have a neurologic examination until rewarmed using heating blankets. When no perfusing cardiac rhythm is present, rewarming through cardiopulmonary bypass is the only option.

although there have been only a few reports (tricyclic antidepressants) of patient examinations that have clearly mimicked the diagnosis of brain death.

So brain death can be falsely induced!!!

How much are some organs worth on the market???

<_<

Acute metabolic derangement and endocrine crisis can mimic brain death but more often diffuse cerebral edema, extensive demyelination, or anoxic ischemic injury, is a consequence of these derangements. Examples are brain edema in fulminant hepatic failure and ketotic hyperglycemia. Many severe abnormalities such as hyponatremia, hypernatremia, hyperglycemia or hypoglycemia, hypothyroidism, pan- hypopituitarism or Addison’s disease may decrease the level of consciousness and confound neurologic examination, but a complete loss of brain stem reflexes is seldomly observed.

There are so many ways to get a false 'brain death' reading...

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

:(:o

in reality a clinical condition simulating brain death for which life support was prematurely and wrongfully discontinued due to an unauthorized and unlawful DNR.

and then.... :o:hmm::(

in reality a clinical condition simulating brain death for which life support was prematurely and wrongfully discontinued due to an unauthorized and unlawful DNR.

http://www.freewebs.com/medical_secrets/Sauve2.htm

:no:

Put yourself in a position of total or near total drug-induced paralysis, a state of neuroleptanalgesia (a form of analgesia accompanied by general quiescence and psychic indifference to environmental stimuli, without loss of consciousness (analgesia without unconsciousness) similar to sleep paralysis and/or narcolepsy produced by the combined administration of a major tranquilizer (prochlorperazine) and a narcotic analgesic (morphine); a state resembling catalepsy.

Neuroleptanalgesia, which is produced by the combination of an opioid (MS Contin) and a tranquilizer (prochlorperazine), is defined as a state of CNS depression. Picture yourself or that of a loved one with most of your senses blunted, unable to move, speak or even open your eyes due to a severely paralyzed motor function - you try relentlessly to free yourself until you become so overwhelmed by exhaustion, fright and panic that your heart begins to give out.

CAVEAT: Drug intoxication and neuromuscular blockade use are reversible causes of coma that can mimic brain death. Further, deep anesthesia (including high dose narcotics) can also mimic changes that occur with cerebral ischemia, including a loss of perfusion. All the so-called major tranquilizers can mimic a death-like condition by causing reduced brain wave activity and lack of responsiveness. Encephalopathy with peripheral neuropathy may falsely mimic brainstem death. Acute metabolic derangement and endocrine crisis can mimic brain death. Demyelinating polyradiculoneuropathy may also resemble brain death.

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crystal sage
Rabies mimics brain death, reversibly. .

Guillain Barre syndrome mimicking cerebral death

this is getting scarier and scarier...

Certifying brain death to cover-up medical blunders or to increase organ donations

, brain death as it was imagined by the Harvard Committee in 1968, that’s not a medical fact, that’s kind of a social compromise.

Jim Hughes: Well, Engels put it actually, one hundred and fifty years ago, he said that death was a process. And that’s been an observation for many. But if you look at extreme cases, you can see that there are transitional states, grey states, between being alive and being dead. And the decision to declare a certain line is not completely arbitrary, but it is culturally specific, and it has certain motivations behind it. In this case, the motivations were very clear. The motivations were to save lives and to serve the needs of the living, the clearly living, taking the organs.

the term itself is kind of ambiguous from the start, because in one sense it could simply mean death of the brain as an organ, just like you can have necrosis or death of a finger, if you cut off the blood supply to it. So the brain itself can die due to lack of blood supply.

. :unsure2: . not the death of the person....

........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Wendy Carlisle: So is brain death the death of the person, in your opinion?

Alan Shewmon: I used to think that it was. But in fact, during the 1980s and early 90s I read a number of articles and gave lectures supporting that idea, and since then I have had to change my opinion about it due to an accumulation of evidence to the contrary.

Wendy Carlisle: What kind of evidence are you talking about here?

Alan Shewmon: Well, the theory is that the brain is the central integrating organ of the body, and without brain function the body literally disintegrates into a collection of organs and tissues, and is not a unified organism any more. And that is the main line theory for why brain death is supposed to be death. But I came across increasing reason to believe that patients in this state did have signs of, let’s say, “living function” at the level of the organism as a whole, and not just life in individual organ systems. It is clear that hearts can beat independently without brain function, and many other organs continue on their own, even without life in the remainder of the body. But what we’re talking about here is not just the functioning of individual organs or tissues, but a more unified holistic functioning. Many patients in the state of brain death, if they get through the initial period of acute dysfunction that requires quite intensive care, they often will stabilize. So these are deeply comatose patients, so I would say that these patients are deeply comatose, permanently comatose but they’re still living human beings.

Wendy Carlisle: I think you’ve actually called somewhere the notion of brain death a medical fiction.

Alan Shewmon: A legal fiction.

Wendy Carlisle: A legal fiction. What does that mean, then, in your opinion for the whole donor debate?

Alan Shewmon: I guess it’s also a medical fiction. You’re right.

:o :o :unsure2: :unsure2: :unsure2: :unsure2: :o

According to this doctor... Brain death is just a term... a legal medical term.... legal fiction... medical fiction.....

http://www.chninternational.com/interview_..._alan_shewm.htm

Again.....

So is brain death the death of the person, in your opinion?

Alan Shewmon: I used to think that it was. But in fact, during the 1980s and early 90s I read a number of articles and gave lectures supporting that idea, and since then I have had to change my opinion about it due to an accumulation of evidence to the contrary.

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crystal sage
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/357/3/209

When the potential donor meets the criteria for cardiac death, a doctor pronounces the patient dead. The time from the onset of asystole — the absence of sufficient cardiac activity to generate a pulse or blood flow (not necessarily the absence of all electrocardiographic activity) — to the declaration of death is generally about 5 minutes, but it may be as short as 2 minutes.1 The limited data available suggest that circulation does not spontaneously return after it has stopped for 2 minutes.2 The organs — most commonly the kidneys and liver but also the pancreas, lungs, and, in rare cases, the heart — are then recovered. To avoid obvious conflicts of interest, neither the surgeon who recovers the organs nor any other personnel involved in transplantation can participate in end-of-life care or the declaration of death.

The outcomes for organs transplanted after cardiac death are similar to those for organs transplanted after brain death. However, the length of time varies as to which organs can be deprived of oxygen (the interval from cessation of circulation to the initiation of perfusion with cold preservation solutions) and still be transplanted successfully. It is best to retrieve the liver less than 30 minutes after the withdrawal of life-sustaining measures; the kidneys and pancreas may often be recovered up to 60 minutes after such withdrawal.1 The extent of a patient's remaining circulatory and respiratory function may reveal whether death is likely to follow soon after extubation. If a patient does not die quickly enough to permit the recovery of organs, end-of-life care continues and any planned donation is canceled. At present, this may happen in up to 20% of cases.

In 1997, 2000, and 2005, the Institute of Medicine reviewed and voiced support for donation after cardiac death.3 In 2005, a conference on donation after cardiac death concluded that it is "an ethically acceptable practice of end-of-life care, capable of increasing the number of deceased-donor organs available for transplantation."1 Nonetheless, some physicians and nurses at the bedside "continue to have concerns about the ethical propriety of the practice" that "are numerous, complex and related to the specific roles they play."4 Some feel uncomfortable about participation in medical practices that may be required during the transition from end-of-life care to organ donation.5 For example, in multidisciplinary ICUs, doctors and nurses who care for both potential organ donors and organ recipients may have conflicting interests. They may be uncomfortable recommending the withdrawal of life-sustaining treatment for one patient and hoping to obtain an organ for another.

:unsure2::unsure: Do you think that the doctors and nurses involved with this feel uncomfortable with this.... because something deep in their gut tells them that it isn't quite right???

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CyberArchangel

Brain dead is not really dead its only brain "switch off" however when it happen some people may have different reaction such as reflex and the occurance is temporary maybe you can think to see Resident Evil that IS brain dead they have no brain but they still can eat :D

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statov

I just joined this group because the topic of discussion is very close to my heart. I am the daughter who advised The Age newspaper in Melbourne, Australia regarding the brain death misdiagnosis of my father, Costa Statovski. I made the decision to contact The Age about this error when I had read an article in which ANZICS (Australian and New Zealand Intensive Care Society) were responding to brain death testing problems raised by another Australian doctor from the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. When I had read that ANZICS claimed that no one had ever been misdiagnosed as brain dead in Australia and that their clinical testing procedures were 100% accurate I naturally felt as though my father's instance had gone unrecorded. We did not make a complaint about this error at the time as we were not told about this procedure by the Hospital and to be honest we were overwhelmed by the fact that my father was now alive after we'd grieved for him and said our good-byes over the course of most of the morning.

Bringing this case up to the public's attention has been a difficult process as I understand the doubts it raises about organ donorship in Australia, but i felt it was worth opening the 'can of worms' in the hope of improving the system. My goal is to determine why my father, who was clinically tested over many hours and diagnosed by 2 seperate doctors as brain dead, was misdiagnosed. Somehow an error occured. My concern is that the clinical testing that we are told to trust as being 100% accurate, is not beyond error. I have seen his medical records and I can tell you he meets the criteria of being considered brain dead according to the clinical testing methods .... so why in his instance was it reversible? To add to the discussion, I can tell you my father was heavily intoxicated on that day, and what I wonder is whether alcohol can lead to states that mimic brain death. If this could be possible then this greatly concerns me, as I then also wonder what the effects of today's 'party drugs' have on the brain and its reaction to clinical brain tests. This is why I think my father's case needs to be examined properly, to ensure we are not making this type of error at the moment or in the future.

And if you are wondering why his misdiagnosis went unrecorded ... it's due to the fact that Australian Hospitals do not have to report a brain death misdiagnosis. Also, for the record, brain death diagnosis' are not audited ... so how many others have they got wrong where it was too late for the poor patient?

I realise I'm up for a struggle against the medico system, as it is far more beneficial to ignore the probability of error in clinical brain death testing, but I think it's something I must morally question for the sake of others experiencing the same thing.

^_^

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crystal sage
I just joined this group because the topic of discussion is very close to my heart. I am the daughter who advised The Age newspaper in Melbourne, Australia regarding the brain death misdiagnosis of my father, Costa Statovski. I made the decision to contact The Age about this error when I had read an article in which ANZICS (Australian and New Zealand Intensive Care Society) were responding to brain death testing problems raised by another Australian doctor from the Royal Children's Hospital in Melbourne. When I had read that ANZICS claimed that no one had ever been misdiagnosed as brain dead in Australia and that their clinical testing procedures were 100% accurate I naturally felt as though my father's instance had gone unrecorded. We did not make a complaint about this error at the time as we were not told about this procedure by the Hospital and to be honest we were overwhelmed by the fact that my father was now alive after we'd grieved for him and said our good-byes over the course of most of the morning.

Bringing this case up to the public's attention has been a difficult process as I understand the doubts it raises about organ donorship in Australia, but i felt it was worth opening the 'can of worms' in the hope of improving the system. My goal is to determine why my father, who was clinically tested over many hours and diagnosed by 2 seperate doctors as brain dead, was misdiagnosed. Somehow an error occured. My concern is that the clinical testing that we are told to trust as being 100% accurate, is not beyond error. I have seen his medical records and I can tell you he meets the criteria of being considered brain dead according to the clinical testing methods .... so why in his instance was it reversible? To add to the discussion, I can tell you my father was heavily intoxicated on that day, and what I wonder is whether alcohol can lead to states that mimic brain death. If this could be possible then this greatly concerns me, as I then also wonder what the effects of today's 'party drugs' have on the brain and its reaction to clinical brain tests. This is why I think my father's case needs to be examined properly, to ensure we are not making this type of error at the moment or in the future.

And if you are wondering why his misdiagnosis went unrecorded ... it's due to the fact that Australian Hospitals do not have to report a brain death misdiagnosis. Also, for the record, brain death diagnosis' are not audited ... so how many others have they got wrong where it was too late for the poor patient?

I realise I'm up for a struggle against the medico system, as it is far more beneficial to ignore the probability of error in clinical brain death testing, but I think it's something I must morally question for the sake of others experiencing the same thing.

^_^

Thankyou for sharing this rather traumatic event... Hugs..

I really do think it was right of you to further publish your story..maybe ask others who have similar tales to report their stories.. so that these areas can be reviewed.. can be better understood.... maybe start an organization.. or a website .. named in your Dad's memory...

so that an awareness is out there of how wide spread it is...

I looked up your story.. http://www.theage.com.au/national/costa-st...81021-55ji.html

I too wonder how often this happens.. some of my previous posts mention the numerous situations including various interactions with drugs.. can mimic brain death...

Like I mentioned earlier a 'House' Episode where they falsely considered a patient to be brain dead.. inspired me to search further..

The horror of reading stories about how those who donate organs are still alive.. can feel.. according to the feedback from the life support machines...yet according to some reasoning are not given any pain blocking medication whilst they remove their organs...

We now know that brains can regenerate.. heal.. during sleep.. given the right conditions.. nutritional.. physical therapy..

Coincidently I saw a program today on modern medical marvels.. where they can use tiny machines that contain positive and negative wires that encourage new nerve growth.. neuron growth.... modern technology such as training the mind to use virtual reality machines...so that the machines can read our thoughts... as well as the machines exercising.. building up the brain..creating new neural connections.. that too can be facilitated nutritionally... acupuncture too is said to help...

maybe we can revive the brain dead...

maybe we should wait longer to be sure before we donate organs...

maybe the appearance of or brain death could be the brain going into shock.. via trauma... that.. given time.. the shock.. like a paralized nerve.. ,, a numb limb.. may wear off after a time...

:rolleyes: maybe I watch too many tv shows.. hospital dramas... as it seems that almost with in minutes of the brain death diagnosis.. they already have them matched with a needy recipient... or numerous recipients...

It is like doctors are drawn to to traumatic cases..... waiting... laying bets to see if they can harvest the trauma victims... is there disappointment if they survive... ???

One article mentions that there are two teams involved.. those that fight for the patient.. and another.. waiting to see if they can recycle the person/victim to help several other patients...

Everything needs to be timed perfectly..... does a flicker of an eyelid.. twitch of a finger... a 'natural spasm' always get dismissed.. because they really believe it is just organic.... or because further time.. tests.. busy staff.. .. the waiting recycling team are impatient as the recipient is running out of time... and it is the only body going at this time... .. will it give them second thoughts about doing more tests ?

But then again... if you are on the receiving end... you are forever in their debt.. grateful.. and the grieving family knows that their loved one lives on, in others...

Maybe those cases where the organ recipients take on memories.. characteristics of their donors... could be proof of hauntings???.. soul sharing...

Edited by crystal sage

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crystal sage

Then there is this...

Trapped in his own body for 23 years - the coma victim who screamed unheard

• Misdiagnosed man's tale of rebirth thanks to doctor

• Total paralysis masked fully functioning brain

Other falsely diagnosed coma cases

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/23/man-trapped-coma-23-years

Laureys, a neurologist at the ­University of Liege in Belgium, published a study in BMC Neurology earlier this year saying Houben could be one of many cases of falsely diagnosed comas around the world. He discovered that although Houben was completely paralysed, he was also completely conscious — it was just that he was unable to communicate the fact.
Laureys concluded that coma patients are misdiagnosed "on a disturbingly regular basis". He examined 44 patients believed to be in a vegetative state, and found that 18 of them responded to communication.

"Once someone is labelled as being without consciousness, it is very hard to get rid of that," he told Der Spiegel.

He said patients suspected of being in a non-reversible coma should be "tested 10 times" and that comas, like sleep, have different stages and need to be monitored.

Sleeping Pill Wakes Woman After 2 Years in Coma

http://healthlibrary.epnet.com/GetContent.aspx?token=df292220-ba7c-4a27-b573-a0fed1c457f6&chunkiid=190205

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