Skeptics vrs experience's

[ZEB]

What can be explained should be and what cant just cant its all opinions without proof,,but if you do experience it should not be

put down as a dillusion Because here is the Truth NO ONE KNOWS and as far as the comment about the muders it has nothing to do with

most experiences yes there are sickos but there are us normal ones also that have had experiences that would like to share without

calling us insane or dillusional from a skeptic that thinks he is right,,,and are looking for answers and other experiences that may help them and others to understand what they saw was real vrs a skeptic that lumps you into a dillusional moron

Edited May 7, 2009 by ZEB

[CausticGnostic]

Sorry, I've only just woken up.

It's cool, friend. I'm just about to stretch out on the ol' rack. .

But which did you mean?

Oh, and Zeb, I really think you're confusing skeptics with nay-sayers. An honest skeptic is the most open-minded person you'll meet. Nay-sayers (what you lambast as "know-it-alls") just like to tear people down. Skeptics don't think they "know everything," but they are crtain about what they do know. Skepticism, as George Santayana said, is chastity of the intellect; without it, the mind becomes . . . slatternly.

Also, it's irrelevantly hypothetical to wish that somebody else could "walk in your shoes" and have "the same experiences" that you've had, because that just isn't possible. Hence, the necessity of reasoned discourse and rational demonstration to determine what is true. Determining what is false is much more difficult, and logically, impossible (since one cannot "prove a negative"). Yet even if I were standing right next to you and you were experiencing something paranormal, I myself probably wouldn't see or hear or feel anything! I'm just an ordinary man with ordinary human faculties. Then you'd probably just claim that you experienced the paranormal because you had "special powers," and we'd be right back where we started--you asserting something for which there's no sufficient evidence, and I doubting you; but doubting, I must add, not your sincerity or honesty in reporting what you think you've experienced, because only you can know that, but rather, doubting the truthfulness of your account as it relates to the world.

Edited May 7, 2009 by CausticGnostic

[ZEB]

It's cool, friend. I'm just about to strecth out on the ol' rack.

But which did you mean?

Oh, and Zeb, I really think you're confusing skeptics with nay-sayers. An honest skeptic is the most open-minded person you'll meet. Nay-sayers (what you lambast as "know-it-alls") just like to tear people down. Also, it's irrelevant to wish that somebody else could "walk in your shoes" and have the same experiences you've had, because that just isn't possible. Hence, the necessity of reason discourse and rational demonstration. Even if I were standing right next to you and you were experiencing something paranormal, I myself might not see or hear or feel anything! Then you'd just claim you had "special powers," and we'd be right back where we started--you asserting something for which there's no sufficient evidence and I doubting you; but doubting, I must add, not your sincerity or honesty in reporting what you think you've experienced, but the truthfulness of that account as it relates to the world.

Well your right about nay sayers,,,thats my beef i guess,,,and no special powers just there was much to digest and a bit fearful for most including me at the start,,and no if you

were there it was in plain view,,many times over and not just one,,nor just one persons view there were 5 of us ,adults no drugs no alcohol no cameras just a haunted place

that would not give us a break,,not wanting us there and I have been researching this place for years,,to finD my answers,,,Many Opnions,,later I have drawn my own conclusions

upon the situation were were thrown into,,,was not pleasent,,by any means ZEB

[CausticGnostic]

Well, Zeb, I'm an honest skeptic, which means that I'll grant that paranormal events and entities might exist. I just have--as yet--no empirical evidence or personal experiences to convince me that they actually do. If you do, however, and you've caid you do, then obviously that changes how you think of and react to such events and entities.

Have you posted your account of your experiences in that haunted house, or are you keeping that yourself, as you intimated, for fear of being ridiculed and attacked by the nay-sayers?

[Leonardo]

Questions for you, ZEB, if you don't mind.

Do you have any objection to looking for evidence that anything you might have experienced might not be what you believe it is? Would you feel disappointed if the explanation for something you thought was paranormal turned out to be mundane?

Do you think the general reason people believe their experience to be paranormal/supernatural is because they have looked at all the mundane alternatives, or is it because they want to believe in the paranormal/supernatural?

[ZEB]

Well, Zeb, I'm an honest skeptic, which means that I'll grant that paranormal events and entities might exist. I just have--as yet--no empirical evidence or personal experiences to convince me that they actually do. If you do, however, and you've caid you do, then obviously that changes how you think of and react to such events and entities.

Have you posted your account of your experiences in that haunted house, or are you keeping that yourself, as you intimated, for fear of being ridiculed and attacked by the nay-sayers?

heck they dont bother me and its good to see you are real, and openminds are always the best! I shared a few years ago up here,,but then

left for awhile as it sort of became a bit kiddish with alot of things in my opinion,,ill message you the story,,or email if you desire,,or post it

as its been along time since i said anything up here,,and there are alot of newbies,,,if others want to hear ill post it and nice to meet you

[ZEB]

Questions for you, ZEB, if you don't mind.

Do you have any objection to looking for evidence that anything you might have experienced might not be what you believe it is? Would you feel disappointed if the explanation for something you thought was paranormal turned out to be mundane?

Do you think the general reason people believe their experience to be paranormal/supernatural is because they have looked at all the mundane alternatives, or is it because they want to believe in the paranormal/supernatural?

I would have no problem with people trying to explain what i experienced in any manner or form and answer to the other question, i believe its becuase they want to believe,,,most do not look at the whole picture,,,or as you say the mundane alternatives,,,my sitiuation was blunt in your face events

that changed my way of thinking forever,,no questions ever in my mind again,upon there is more here then what we see in our everyday mundane

routine zeb

[CausticGnostic]

heck they dont bother me and its good to see you are real, and openminds are always the best! I shared a few years ago up here,,but then

left for awhile as it sort of became a bit kiddish with alot of things in my opinion,,ill message you the story,,or email if you desire,,or post it

as its been along time since i said anything up here,,and there are alot of newbies,,,if others want to hear ill post it and nice to meet you

Thanks, Zeb. Nice talking with you, too. And thanks for the links!

[ZEB]

Thanks, Zeb. Nice talking with you, too. And thanks for the links!

I take it you mean my musical sites,,,,well hope you enjoyed ! and well all of this does have to do with my occupation and

research into certian things ever since zeb

[Something Is Out There]

Hm, Zeb maybe instead of talking about sceptics , why dont you share your experience with us? Of course perhaps some of UM members will flame you or even critic you in disbelief of your experience, but its up to them right? Sharing doesnt hurt and most UM members like to hear experiences from others too.

[Syntax]

Of course perhaps some of UM members will flame you or even critic you in disbelief of your experience

Absolutely,

If an experience can't stand up to scrutiny then it is not definitive

Edited May 7, 2009 by Syntax

[lisavclarson]

Ther is nothing in the world that would convince anyone of anything, unless it becomes personal,,,no video no words no pictures--its the way it works, its all talk to you

live the moment..,, but dont worry about trying to convince anyone its not worth the effort, if you have had your experience

then you know, be one with yourself on your experience, I know how it feels to try to convince, I can only tell of what i have seen,,or experienced,,as the rest of us

can DO NOT LET THE SKEPTICS insult your experience,,live for knowing you have seen,,,let them gribble on,,,as they always do,,if your real in what and who you are

and have seen,,who cares what SKEPTICS THINK, Live for the experience Peace and Light Um-rs ZEB

I think there are two kinds of skeptics in the world...open-minded and close-minded. I am an open-minded skeptic in that I would never call someone out as being crazy for saying they had an experience, but I would be skeptical enough to pick it apart. I think many people who post on here benefit from us picking their experiences apart, as they can learn to seperate "normal" from "paranormal" with the help of other points of views and other's analysis of what is logical or what is not explainable. The close-minded skeptics are the ones who scream "CRAZY" at all the people who post a paranormal experience, and then their buddies post more ridiculous negative rubbish! THOSE skeptics ought to stay off this site and find a new hobby. But also in THEIR defense...so many people post stuff that they know is NONSENSE, and a lot of people are probably sick and tired of the posters who like to play games with people! It makes it's super tough for the ones who had- what they believe to be REAL- experiences.

[chaoszerg]

It's no good saying don't let skeptics this and that because most of the time it turns out many are lying about their so called experience, or are just mistaken, people just don't like it when something they believe to be really wonderful or amazing turns out to be mundane or nothing at all. I am not saying everything folks see is mundane or nothing I am sure some of you probably do see something, but a whole load of the time it is just people mistaken or playing make believe.

[MirrorImage]

It's no good saying don't let skeptics this and that because most of the time it turns out many are lying about their so called experience, or are just mistaken, people just don't like it when something they believe to be really wonderful or amazing turns out to be mundane or nothing at all. I am not saying everything folks see is mundane or nothing I am sure some of you probably do see something, but a whole load of the time it is just people mistaken or playing make believe.

Sadly most are the latter. I will grant that many DO experiance something beyond the normal, some of it is even paranormal.

My problem is with those who are totally unwilling to discuss the possibilty that what they saw is xenonormal, outside the scope of their own 'normal' but still within the rages of over all normalacy. Theres a good thread here http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...c=152755&hl about that.

Im far more likely to believe some one who is willing to consider other possibilites for what they experiance, just simply because to me it seems if they are rational enough to explore all possibilites, they may infact be rational and just another lonely person using a "paranormal" event to cure their mundane life.

[Wallydraigle]

Everyone is equally skeptical.

[They're Here]

I hear what you are saying Zeb. I know exactly how you feel. You just have to have experienced something very real and suddenly it feels like the rest of the world is delusional. They want to look for rational explanations when sometimes there just isn't one. It's kind of difficult to live in a world like that sometimes, but I can understand why others are the way they are. I, for one, am skeptical of others, and that is why I keep my experiences to myself. Hopefully someone will come along one day and say they've seen the same thing I saw and I will be able to identify/verify my experience with them. I'm not afraid of posting my experiences, but I don't want to poison the barrel with my experiences and then I will never know if someone else really saw what I saw or are just mirroring my own experience back at me. Until then, I just see others experiences that are different from my own as a range of possibilities, remaining agnostic until I see evidence either way. Like you said, there really is no way to verify another's experience. Pictures, movies, anecdotal evidence, nothing will ever convince me that what someone else saw was real. It is only possible. Thanks for posting your feelings.

[ZEB]

I think there are two kinds of skeptics in the world...open-minded and close-minded. I am an open-minded skeptic in that I would never call someone out as being crazy for saying they had an experience, but I would be skeptical enough to pick it apart. I think many people who post on here benefit from us picking their experiences apart, as they can learn to seperate "normal" from "paranormal" with the help of other points of views and other's analysis of what is logical or what is not explainable. The close-minded skeptics are the ones who scream "CRAZY" at all the people who post a paranormal experience, and then their buddies post more ridiculous negative rubbish! THOSE skeptics ought to stay off this site and find a new hobby. But also in THEIR defense...so many people post stuff that they know is NONSENSE, and a lot of people are probably sick and tired of the posters who like to play games with people! It makes it's super tough for the ones who had- what they believe to be REAL- experiences.

I thought that was said really well and about that way it is and how I see it..You put all of it in a perspective of what goes down here Thank you ZEB

[ZEB]

I hear what you are saying Zeb. I know exactly how you feel. You just have to have experienced something very real and suddenly it feels like the rest of the world is delusional. They want to look for rational explanations when sometimes there just isn't one. It's kind of difficult to live in a world like that sometimes, but I can understand why others are the way they are. I, for one, am skeptical of others, and that is why I keep my experiences to myself. Hopefully someone will come along one day and say they've seen the same thing I saw and I will be able to identify/verify my experience with them. I'm not afraid of posting my experiences, but I don't want to poison the barrel with my experiences and then I will never know if someone else really saw what I saw or are just mirroring my own experience back at me. Until then, I just see others experiences that are different from my own as a range of possibilities, remaining agnostic until I see evidence either way. Like you said, there really is no way to verify another's experience. Pictures, movies, anecdotal evidence, nothing will ever convince me that what someone else saw was real. It is only possible. Thanks for posting your feelings.

This is exactly what i was talking about,,,and the definition from lisa about NONSENSE posts and good posts how some people may feel about posting their expereinces but are afreaid of getting bashed by morons and want

to share and find out if anyone else had the same kind of event,,,,i They'r here,,I think we are bringing this to the forfront for a reason,,

things should be talked about if real to a person and not bashed,,but on the other hand there has beena lot BS EVENTS posted here for attention

that is one of the reasons i was not posting much anymore as I said,,,I think this a great site,,,and we should all work to help and listen

and share as best as possilbe!!! ZEB

[They're Here]

This is exactly what i was talking about,,,and the definition from lisa about NONSENSE posts and good posts how some people may feel about posting their expereinces but are afreaid of getting bashed by morons and want

to share and find out if anyone else had the same kind of event,,,,i They'r here,,I think we are bringing this to the forfront for a reason,,

things should be talked about if real to a person and not bashed,,but on the other hand there has beena lot BS EVENTS posted here for attention

that is one of the reasons i was not posting much anymore as I said,,,I think this a great site,,,and we should all work to help and listen

and share as best as possilbe!!! ZEB

Yeah, it's true that the *bashing* that goes on is putting a damper on people willing to come forth with their experiences. That is the downside of this forum. It's really uncalled for in many instances and I think people should be more vigilant against these kind of posts. Unfortunately, I think far too many skeptics are willing to overlook these kind of comments which skews the balance in favor of the skeptics. I'm not sure they are aware of it, but it really makes skeptics look bad to any rational-minded person, and shouldn't be tolerated by skeptics, believers, or anyone in between. If someone says something rude without merit or makes obviously fallacious arguments with no qualifying scientific evidence to back it up, they should really be called out on their behavior. Unfortunately I don't think that's going to happen, but hopefully it will.

Edited May 7, 2009 by They're Here

[lisavclarson]

I thought that was said really well and about that way it is and how I see it..You put all of it in a perspective of what goes down here Thank you ZEB

You're welcome!

[ZEB]

You're welcome!

To listen and learn and evaluate is the key!! not to bash zeb

[dkkjf68]

Unless you have experienced something parnormal first hand, you probably will be very skeptical about someone's account of their experience. I have had several paranormal experiences and if you hang out with me long enough, you will see what I'm talking about. (just ask my family & friends! ) That sortof stuff has followed me my whole life! I guess it just all depends on which angle you are viewing things from. I know what I've experienced and that is good enough for me. I don't feel I should convince anyone otherwise. It just boils down to this: If you believe, then you believe. If you don't, then you don't. It's simply the balance that we need in this world. Night-day. Happy-sad. War-peace. Yes-no. etc,etc. One without the other simply doesn't exist. It's just the way it is. And I suppose I like it that way!

[ZEB]

I am posting my experience as Possesed Recording studio in this forum ZEB

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=153357

Edited May 7, 2009 by ZEB

[kymetra]

I agree that people are scared and unwilling to post any experiences on this particular forum. It seems like people are jumped on here. I know that there is sometimes a non paranormal explanation for an incident. But I figured coming on this forum it would be filled with people who don't just look at the situation one way. I read thru some posts on here and I could compare it to a extreme left wing evangelical posting on a right wing atheist topic or the other way around. ( Please don't attack me for using that example ) Some skeptics who post come up with reasons that don't even match with the original experience. It sometimes seems that those skeptics try so hard to debunk someones experience their reasoning sounds more out there than the incident.

PLEASE do not think I'm bashing all the skeptics in the forum. This is all just my own opinion. I found a lot of what some posted about the experience being just natural occurrences helpful! It just kinda sucks that someone who curious about their encounter comes to post on here to find anyone who might have had the same thing happen to them, and they get flamed. People get sarcastic, rude, and ignorant. It's those particular skeptics who are hard to talk to. Other than that the forum is a fountain of information of the paranormal and interesting to read.

[bLu3 de 3n3rgy]

I agree that people are scared and unwilling to post any experiences on this particular forum. It seems like people are jumped on here. I know that there is sometimes a non paranormal explanation for an incident. But I figured coming on this forum it would be filled with people who don't just look at the situation one way.

One thing that you will find circulating on this forum is a broad span of beliefs and opinions, and different degrees of skepticism. You are right when you say that this is a place where people don't just look at things one way or the same way.

It sometimes seems that those skeptics try so hard to debunk someones experience their reasoning sounds more out there than the incident.

'Blind' skeptics are as bad as blind believers, they are both similar in that they produce 'dead end' nonsense for arguments and discussion. This happens because they are coming from a place where they're neither ready/able to listen, learn or evolve their understandings, yet.

It just kinda sucks that someone who curious about their encounter comes to post on here to find anyone who might have had the same thing happen to them, and they get flamed. People get sarcastic, rude, and ignorant. It's those particular skeptics who are hard to talk to. Other than that the forum is a fountain of information of the paranormal and interesting to read.

Flaming and rude behaviour is never an accepted behaviour on these forums regardless which side it comes from, and such behaviours are dealt with accordingly by the Mod Team. The report button is always a good way to alert the Mod Team to any thread or post that has gone beyond the acceptable

Edited May 20, 2009 by Lady_Anvilabeel