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ZEB

Skeptics vrs experience's

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Lt_Ripley

I am someone who is both a Skeptic and has had a couple of experiences... one of them not by myself.

here's the deal ...... your whining about Skeptics not believing what someone says.. but plenty of people come on here that are full of crap. delusional. Many should be tested for mental illness imo. With alot of other things they could be experiencing that is a product of their own brain... is it any wonder people are skeptical ? even ones who have had experiences. ?

Seeing isn't always believing and seeing isn't always proof.

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Mattshark
I am someone who is both a Skeptic and has had a couple of experiences... one of them not by myself.

here's the deal ...... your whining about Skeptics not believing what someone says.. but plenty of people come on here that are full of crap. delusional. Many should be tested for mental illness imo. With alot of other things they could be experiencing that is a product of their own brain... is it any wonder people are skeptical ? even ones who have had experiences. ?

Seeing isn't always believing and seeing isn't always proof.

That is very true. A lot of people don't acknowledge that experience interpretation is subject to that person own preconceptions, knowledge and beliefs. Hence you it is hard to simply accept on face value. The problems are then compound by recall, no matter what this deteriorates over time and it is easy to make mistakes, not by fault just by mistake and that can alter the context of the experience of some of the important information.

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Lt_Ripley
I am posting my experience as Possesed Recording studio in this forum ZEB

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...howtopic=153357

see I find that all unbelievable ... but a good work of fiction for a new book.

how about we write the owners and ask them ? what's the name of this church ? I'd like to look it up.

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ZEB
see I find that all unbelievable ... but a good work of fiction for a new book.

how about we write the owners and ask them ? what's the name of this church ? I'd like to look it up.

You dont think i haven't done massive research on this place???? Take a pick on owners for 100 years or more,,,lol,,

I found out everything possible about this place,,,and this is the very reason I did not even want to post this,,

and you think this is something so far??? calling it a good work for fiction,,,?? the rest is far beyond anything you

have read yet,,,and I haven't put the rest up for this very reason No one knows what i went thru and to have people

even have the balls to tell me it did not happen is an insult to my intelligence,,,what do you know??? NOTHING you were

not there,,,I dont make things up for attention,,,I have enough to do in my life,,lol,,,nope,,the very reason I dont want to

post the ending is written right here,,,I dont need opnions,,,im not asking opnions,,,i lived the horror of the event,, so I will

live with what i know ,,,My life changed becuase of these moments in time...and will never look back... Skeptics , non believers whatever

has no meaning,,,for guess what YOU DONT KNOW And if you where there for these moment in time,,you would feel exactly the same

about people bashing and thinking THAT I am making this up... just why should i let my brain take the insult and try to make

you believe? it dont mean a damn thing to me if you do or dont. but dont tell me im making things up for a book lol I was asked to post it ...the end ZEB

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Lt_Ripley
You dont think i haven't done massive research on this place???? Take a pick on owners for 100 years or more,,,lol,,

I found out everything possible about this place,,,and this is the very reason I did not even want to post this,,

and you think this is something so far??? calling it a good work for fiction,,,?? the rest is far beyond anything you

have read yet,,,and I haven't put the rest up for this very reason No one knows what i went thru and to have people

even have the balls to tell me it did not happen is an insult to my intelligence,,,what do you know??? NOTHING you were

not there,,,I dont make things up for attention,,,I have enough to do in my life,,lol,,,nope,,the very reason I dont want to

post the ending is written right here,,,I dont need opnions,,,im not asking opnions,,,i lived the horror of the event,, so I will

live with what i know ,,,My life changed becuase of these moments in time...and will never look back... Skeptics , non believers whatever

has no meaning,,,for guess what YOU DONT KNOW And if you where there for these moment in time,,you would feel exactly the same

about people bashing and thinking THAT I am making this up... just why should i let my brain take the insult and try to make

you believe? it dont mean a damn thing to me if you do or dont. but dont tell me im making things up for a book lol I was asked to post it ...the end ZEB

and yet you didn't list the name of the place. i'd like to get a hold of the owners. really. I want to ask them if their place is haunted.

also ... most people relating such an experience don't write 3 pages ........... that's someone who wrote a story. I listed my 3 instances in about as much text on this page now. But yours looks like a novel your working on. fiction.

now let's say Jane Doe and John Doe are in a room. John sees a ghost and yet Jane doesn't see anything. Who is more likely to be right ? who is more likely to be mentally ill ?

I do believe in ghosts but can't prove it. nor did I expect anyone to believe me which is why I rarely comment on it. Yet I'm still skeptical. Especially when we have reports like your wild remarks.

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ZEB
and yet you didn't list the name of the place. i'd like to get a hold of the owners. really. I want to ask them if their place is haunted.

also ... most people relating such an experience don't write 3 pages ........... that's someone who wrote a story. I listed my 3 instances in about as much text on this page now. But yours looks like a novel your working on. fiction.

now let's say Jane Doe and John Doe are in a room. John sees a ghost and yet Jane doesn't see anything. Who is more likely to be right ? who is more likely to be mentally ill ?

I do believe in ghosts but can't prove it. nor did I expect anyone to believe me which is why I rarely comment on it. Yet I'm still skeptical. Especially when we have reports like your wild remarks.

Well it was not gee i saw ghost wow what was that! it was a constant thing for days,,,,it has been vacant for years,,it has been a church then a recording studio then nothing vacant

and now its some type of weird church again,,,,there is so much detail in this,,,,this is exactly why i did not want to post,,,I will put the rest up,,,so you all can make your i dont

believe you...your making it up etc,,,,but i dont care what anyone thinks nor do the people that were with me,,,,it was a freaking movie in my mind,,,and always will be,,,it will

always play and rerun till i die,,,,I dont share the whole story ever,,,,for this very reason,,its sound like a book or movie,,,well my dear it happend and you think what i posted

was something,,??? lol the end of this is waaaaaaaaaay beyond what you have read so far,,,,,if I went into my personal feelings and events upon everything it would be a small

novel,,,,its so detailed and I wanted everyone to see all the details and live the events as I did,,,not just whoooooooooooo theres a ghost booo was it or wasent it a ghost

my dear this places was possesed beyond anything not haunted POSSESED this was their building and they let me know it.....ahhhhh ya see i dont want to get into this frame

of brain with anyone trying to defend myself Exactly why I did not want to tell the whole event,,,,it dont matter,,,,ill finish it you all can laugh or believe i dont really care,,,

I was shown things most will never ever ever ever see,,,,once i accpeted what was going on,,,,anyway,,,no im not mad...its just well hurts the soul and heart,,,to argue

or defend myself ..for it happend changed my life proved the existence ,,not only to me but others with me,,,I will die knowing,,,and have no fears,,,that there is something more

then this greedy little existence we have created here for ourselves,,, :D

Edited by ZEB

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Superman
and yet you didn't list the name of the place. i'd like to get a hold of the owners. really. I want to ask them if their place is haunted.

Just a small note of mine:

I've gone to quite a few 'ghost hunts', in my career. I've gone to both business and residential, and as well as 'public' investigations (investigations taking place in say a park, cemetery. etc) and the majority of "clients" I have worked with - wished for me to not tell anyone about transpired on said investigation nor let anyone know that they contacted us in the first place. "Hauntings" is still considered taboo with a lot of people.

I find it a bit callous to ask someone for the number or address of a suspected haunted place - so they can 'check with the owners.' I think that's going beyond skepticism (Which there is nothing wrong with that) and being overly obtuse.

If I were to, in the future, post any of my 'evidence' and stories about my 'Ghost' hunts, I wouldn't be able to give personal identifiable information about the clients nor the buildings and or properties that these investigations took place.

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ZEB
Just a small note of mine:

I've gone to quite a few 'ghost hunts', in my career. I've gone to both business and residential, and as well as 'public' investigations (investigations taking place in say a park, cemetery. etc) and the majority of "clients" I have worked with - wished for me to not tell anyone about transpired on said investigation nor let anyone know that they contacted us in the first place. "Hauntings" is still considered taboo with a lot of people.

I find it a bit callous to ask someone for the number or address of a suspected haunted place - so they can 'check with the owners.' I think that's going beyond skepticism (Which there is nothing wrong with that) and being overly obtuse.

If I were to, in the future, post any of my 'evidence' and stories about my 'Ghost' hunts, I wouldn't be able to give personal identifiable information about the clients nor the buildings and or properties that these investigations took place.

I have researched the history of this place believe me,,, Yes I have links , but it dont tell you nothing,,,,some old priests and owners of the place,,before it was sold and turned into

a recording studio,, many years ago,,, It doesent matter,,to find out what happend there is the question,,,why is the place what it was...?? but I agree with you ..these are private

parties that really dont want the world to know...My experience here made me the man I am today,,,my beliefs, my understandings..etc,,to me the world caught up maybe in movies

and things to the experience,,and that is only recently,,,things that happend there well nowdays it would be considered and dealt with and researched,, back then No one even could imagine what this was,,as you will see when i finish it up,,,,I have to write it longhand,,,tell everything i can,,sorry its so long,,but if you want to understand what i saw,,it has to be that way zeb

Edited by ZEB

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Superman

I am reluctant to post any of my 'evidence' from 'investigations' I've been on. So many times the character of the poster who is posting their evidence is brought into question. I know that I wouldn't tolerate answering a majority of the questions about my mentality, the group I work with, the place I went to.

Seems some people want a background check of the poster before they can even accept what it is they are presenting. Rather than looking at the evidence at hand for what it is.

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Tropo

I've noticed some comments on questioning mental stability. Your mind should always be in question by yourself and others. Especially those who have always been sane because having this sanity for your entire life means you no reference point to know when it starts slipping away.

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They're Here
You dont think i haven't done massive research on this place???? Take a pick on owners for 100 years or more,,,lol,,

I found out everything possible about this place,,,and this is the very reason I did not even want to post this,,

and you think this is something so far??? calling it a good work for fiction,,,?? the rest is far beyond anything you

have read yet,,,and I haven't put the rest up for this very reason No one knows what i went thru and to have people

even have the balls to tell me it did not happen is an insult to my intelligence,,,what do you know??? NOTHING you were

not there,,,I dont make things up for attention,,,I have enough to do in my life,,lol,,,nope,,the very reason I dont want to

post the ending is written right here,,,I dont need opnions,,,im not asking opnions,,,i lived the horror of the event,, so I will

live with what i know ,,,My life changed becuase of these moments in time...and will never look back... Skeptics , non believers whatever

has no meaning,,,for guess what YOU DONT KNOW And if you where there for these moment in time,,you would feel exactly the same

about people bashing and thinking THAT I am making this up... just why should i let my brain take the insult and try to make

you believe? it dont mean a damn thing to me if you do or dont. but dont tell me im making things up for a book lol I was asked to post it ...the end ZEB

Wow, I don't get it Zeb. People were very positive in that thread. I think only one person said they had trouble believing in it. I wasn't going to make up my mind until I heard your whole story, that's why I didn't post anything. But I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and then it seems you disappeared for no reason.

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Superman
I've noticed some comments on questioning mental stability. Your mind should always be in question by yourself and others. Especially those who have always been sane because having this sanity for your entire life means you no reference point to know when it starts slipping away.

Perhaps, but not here. Since Medical advice isn't allowed here, questioning someone's mental stability is a moot point - as if the thread does go down that line, it'll most likely incur moderator intervention.

Threads should, instead, focus on the content of the post, rather than the poster themselves. If someone is in a 'ghost hunting' group, or do this as a hobby, then they should be treated with some measure of respect, since they're actually on the field. With hands on experience. And not "doing it for attention."

The poster should never be the line of questioning, nor the focus of the topic. It should be the provided 'evidence' and the posters account of the experience.

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Tropo
Perhaps, but not here. Since Medical advice isn't allowed here, questioning someone's mental stability is a moot point - as if the thread does go down that line, it'll most likely incur moderator intervention.

Threads should, instead, focus on the content of the post, rather than the poster themselves. If someone is in a 'ghost hunting' group, or do this as a hobby, then they should be treated with some measure of respect, since they're actually on the field. With hands on experience. And not "doing it for attention."

The poster should never be the line of questioning, nor the focus of the topic. It should be the provided 'evidence' and the posters account of the experience.

Mental Illness isn't exactly "doing it for attention" whether in or off field, and there is (or at least should be) no loss of respect for having a mental illness or falling victim to one of the many normal psychological tendencies of a human.

Not necessarily the poster should come into question however a witness should. If the poster is a witness then that means they were part of said event (situation) and it would therefor (by my logic) be valid to question their reliability such as we should investigate the validity of any source of information.

As for medical advice I hardly think telling them to reflect upon the possibility of hallucinations or insanity is anymore than telling them to look into the phenomena of groupthink or studies done on witness reliability, or false positives. I would understand the problem if someone suggested them getting an MRI or going to a psychologist but telling them to think about the possibility shouldn't count as medical advice.

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Lt_Ripley
Just a small note of mine:

I've gone to quite a few 'ghost hunts', in my career. I've gone to both business and residential, and as well as 'public' investigations (investigations taking place in say a park, cemetery. etc) and the majority of "clients" I have worked with - wished for me to not tell anyone about transpired on said investigation nor let anyone know that they contacted us in the first place. "Hauntings" is still considered taboo with a lot of people.

I find it a bit callous to ask someone for the number or address of a suspected haunted place - so they can 'check with the owners.' I think that's going beyond skepticism (Which there is nothing wrong with that) and being overly obtuse.

If I were to, in the future, post any of my 'evidence' and stories about my 'Ghost' hunts, I wouldn't be able to give personal identifiable information about the clients nor the buildings and or properties that these investigations took place.

he put up a pic and listed it as being in Schenectady NY ,,,,, not hard to find out from there if one is in the area. If this went on for days as he claims where's the proof ? extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. until then it isn't fact or proof. just a story. I see no evidence but a tale being spun. until it's proven .

doesn't a recording studio have ........... recording devices ? no one was smart enough to get a camera ? a camcorder ? guess not as it went on for 'days'.

Edited by Lt_Ripley

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Mabon
Perhaps, but not here. Since Medical advice isn't allowed here, questioning someone's mental stability is a moot point - as if the thread does go down that line, it'll most likely incur moderator intervention.

Threads should, instead, focus on the content of the post, rather than the poster themselves. If someone is in a 'ghost hunting' group, or do this as a hobby, then they should be treated with some measure of respect, since they're actually on the field. With hands on experience. And not "doing it for attention."

The poster should never be the line of questioning, nor the focus of the topic. It should be the provided 'evidence' and the posters account of the experience.

Superman.

It depends on how it is done, if it's a snarky "you're crazy seek help" kind of post that poster is not really there to enter into a discussion anyway and would be a drive by or pile on poster IMO.

Mental stability of the poster should always be a concern IMHO. Of course as per the forum rules medical advice is disallowed, but questioning is allowed. Asking with respect out of concern for their safety when a poster is posting erratically or in ways typically associated with signs of illness (mental or physical), to go for a check up has never been out of bounds or this has been my understanding. Alerting them to what it can be is not the same as telling them they have 'X' or what to do about it.

Respect is earned or it isn't. Just because someone is 'in the field' doesn't mean they get points for doing more than getting off their couch. Thrill seeking groups do that much. I figure that you are applying the standards of your group to all groups in your statement but in all fairness not all groups have standards or good ones.

I disagree again. On UM and similar forums, the poster is a part of the experience their relating. It's usually their story or a place they know about and the readers (typically) don't have access to the site of the disturbance. In order to determine the reliability of the post is to question the poster and in some ways they should expect questions. Their state of mind and the angle they are coming from plays a big part.

-Are they telling a story for attention.

There is a lot of this type of traffic here, from the kind who think that having an experience marks them as special or because they want to see how many people they can sucker in with a made up tale. I've yet to see an attention seeker accept being questioned about either their experience or themselves.

-Are they telling a story to try and resolve something they don't understand.

Poster who want to understand, was it paranormal, normal or what the heck happened are usually more willing to talk. No one likes being grilled or called names by drive by posters.

If a poster only want their stories read with no comments, question or attempt to understand the experience there already is a way for people to do that, it's called a blog.

Regards,

Mabon.

Edited by Mabon

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Superman
Superman.

linked-image

It depends on how it is done, if it's a snarky "you're crazy seek help" kind of post that poster is not really there to enter into a discussion anyway and would be a drive by or pile on poster IMO.

Mental stability of the poster should always be a concern IMHO. Of course as per the forum rules medical advice is disallowed, but questioning is allowed. Asking with respect out of concern for their safety when a poster is posting erratically or in ways typically associated with signs of illness (mental or physical), to go for a check up has never been out of bounds or this has been my understanding. Alerting them to what it can be is not the same as telling them they have 'X' or what to do about it.

When the mental status of a member is taking priority over the topic at hand - then it's out of control. The threads are created (a majority of the time) is about the posters topic of choice. Not necessarily the posters mental stability. Even if someone was off his or her rocker, there isn't anything we can do, as posters. Another poster can express their concern, but it isn't the topic at hand, and when it becomes such, we moderators have to intervene.

Besides, we (Those of us on the Administration Staff) cannot omit those with perceived mental illnesses from posting - that isn't fair.

I disagree again. On UM and similar forums, the poster is a part of the experience their relating. It's usually their story or a place they know about and the readers (typically) don't have access to the site of the disturbance. In order to determine the reliability of the post is to question the poster and in some ways they should expect questions. Their state of mind and the angle they are coming from plays a big part.

Yes and no, I have to disagree on some. Sure, in the pursuit of truth, the perceptions and reliability of the poster is crucial. But to U.M. to a debate forum, where we often will never get down to the ultimate truth of said scenario, it becomes cumbersome for a poster to have to go through hoops and mental checks and balances to apease the other posters curiosity and skepticism. Mind you, I'm saying here at U.M. I'm not saying out on the field, or on a personal face-to-face basis. But U.M. where the purpose of this site is just to allow people to form their own hypothesis, belief of what's going on, it gets in the way.

Again, I'm not saying threads like "Zomfg My best friend is a Werewolf/vampire/flavorofthemonth". I'm talking about the threads where a poster brings up an experience, in a calm, cool rational way. Or talks about an investigation they took place in.

As a Moderator, it's part of my job to try to keep a balance, and let both sides speak their minds. But as a member, as a poster and "Paranormal Investigator" I would think twice about sharing my "experiences" and "evidence" I've collected, from the behavior I've witnessed here in the past. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against skepticism. I'm a skeptical about many things - but the behavior I've bore witness too, the sheer close mindedness and elitism and above all else, the ridicule I've seen decent posters be subjected too due to their 'beliefs' or 'experiences' I've noticed here is something I'm trying to help alleviate. As it doesn't breed good conversations. It seems that some people aren't 'skeptics' are not behaving as such, but just get a kick out of ridiculing other people - and these are the kinds of people we try to weed out. It's inappropriate.

Mind you, I'm not putting the blame on 'skeptics', 'believers' can be equally as disruptive and inappropriate.

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Mabon
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When the mental status of a member is taking priority over the topic at hand - then it's out of control. The threads are created (a majority of the time) is about the posters topic of choice. Not necessarily the posters mental stability. Even if someone was off his or her rocker, there isn't anything we can do, as posters. Another poster can express their concern, but it isn't the topic at hand, and when it becomes such, we moderators have to intervene.

Besides, we (Those of us on the Administration Staff) cannot omit those with perceived mental illnesses from posting - that isn't fair.

I do agree with your statement here. If a person has expressed concern and alerted the OP to potential problems then drop that aspect. Unfortunately, and again IMO if it's never suggested that what the person is experiencing may have an alternative explanation other than paranormal, then it can leave a person in a dangerous potentially deadly situation.

Yes and no, I have to disagree on some. Sure, in the pursuit of truth, the perceptions and reliability of the poster is crucial. But to U.M. to a debate forum, where we often will never get down to the ultimate truth of said scenario, it becomes cumbersome for a poster to have to go through hoops and mental checks and balances to apease the other posters curiosity and skepticism. Mind you, I'm saying here at U.M. I'm not saying out on the field, or on a personal face-to-face basis. But U.M. where the purpose of this site is just to allow people to form their own hypothesis, belief of what's going on, it gets in the way. Again, I'm not saying threads like "Zomfg My best friend is a Werewolf/vampire/flavorofthemonth". I'm talking about the threads where a poster brings up an experience, in a calm, cool rational way. Or talks about an investigation they took place in.

Hmm... I do agree with some of what your saying, yet in some respects (to me) there is no difference.

One of the reasons that I frequent this forum is the skeptics asking questions. There are other forums out there that drive me nuts because every story is accepted and questions aren't approved of.

I do agree any poster asking the same question several different ways yet getting the same response from the OP, does get annoying to read. Provided, of course if the question was answered and was a valid question to begin with. Not liking the answer isn't the same as not getting one.

I agree on a forum, it's unlikely that we'll ever know the full picture. But I do contend that the reliability of the poster is crucial in both areas. Otherwise, why bother? Go post in a blog or another site that accepts everything.

In life, an investigator has no more ability to change the position of the 'client' than members do on the forum. It to me is the same listen/read, ask questions, offer alternative opinions/explanations let the person decide. Because even if an investigator/member either presents evidence and/or suggests 'the photo is paredolia' or 'the noise was a squirrel', the OP/client may not accept the garden variety answer for their own reason.

As a Moderator, it's part of my job to try to keep a balance, and let both sides speak their minds. But as a member, as a poster and "Paranormal Investigator" I would think twice about sharing my "experiences" and "evidence" I've collected, from the behavior I've witnessed here in the past. Don't get me wrong, I've got nothing against skepticism. I'm a skeptical about many things - but the behavior I've bore witness too, the sheer close mindedness and elitism and above all else, the ridicule I've seen decent posters be subjected too due to their 'beliefs' or 'experiences' I've noticed here is something I'm trying to help alleviate. As it doesn't breed good conversations. It seems that some people aren't 'skeptics' are not behaving as such, but just get a kick out of ridiculing other people - and these are the kinds of people we try to weed out. It's inappropriate.

Mind you, I'm not putting the blame on 'skeptics', 'believers' can be equally as disruptive and inappropriate.

I agree with balance myself. But I don't think the opposite irksome personality to believer is skeptic. To me the it's a debunker. But close mindedness happens just as often with believers as it does debunkers masquerading as skeptics. LOL! A skeptic is a good thing although I really dislike labeling people by traits. Ridicule, in my opinion is the refuge of a shallow thinker and has no part in the skeptical process.

There are some experiences if, the individual isn't ready to explore probably shouldn't post them, but exploring can facilitates growth/understanding. It may not be the same idea that the individual started out with or even the conclusion that they expected but it's all a part of the journey. Besides, learning that there may be a logical reason behind the experience is better than propagating false conclusions. Yet I openly admit and enjoy the ones that make you wonder.

Regards,

Mabon.

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ZEB
Wow, I don't get it Zeb. People were very positive in that thread. I think only one person said they had trouble believing in it. I wasn't going to make up my mind until I heard your whole story, that's why I didn't post anything. But I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and then it seems you disappeared for no reason.

My work keeps me very busy,,,really I will finish the experience,,, you will get no proof no one has proof,,till they catch a ghost or a demon

etc whatever in a cage and put it into view lol....like that will ever happen,,,just kind of gets me cranked that people say I am making

this up....god all mighty,,,like I need that type of grief,,from someone i dont even know....o well have no fears ill get it written out

as I said i am doing it in real time..i dont have the event already written for a book as mmmm o well never mind,,,,I should be able to

get out here tonight,,after my recording session and put an end to it lol sorry for the delay ZEB

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