Where did love come from?

[coberst]

Where did love come from?

Plato judged that the basis of love is centered upon the mutual struggle for truth. I claim that the emotion of love in humans is evolved from the mother infant relationship in early mammals.

Occasionally when reading I run across a phrase or sentence or paragraph, which really rings a bell for me. The bell may be recognition of the compatibility of the point to my own conclusions or perhaps the point caused an epiphany, or other reasons. When I encounter such a point I often copy it and store it in a file for later analysis. One such point is as follows: “Platonic idea that the giving and receiving of knowledge, the active formation of another’s character, or the more passive growth under another’s guidance, is the truest and strongest foundation of love”.

My analysis of this sentence led me down a long trail over an extended period of time to an understanding of the meaning of the statement and to an agreement with the meaning of that statement.

When studying philosophy I had read some of Plato’s work and had a slight remembrance of one of his Dialogues in which he dealt with the subject of love. After some study of the particular Dialogue in question and some further study of Plato’s general philosophy I realized what was meant by the point made in the sentence I had saved.

Quickie from Wiki: “Plato constructed the Symposium as a story within a story within a story. This architecture creates the space for Plato to build his philosophy of knowledge. The speech of Socrates points out that the highest purpose of Love is to become a Philosopher, or Lover of Wisdom.”

I often watch the Discovery Channel on TV. As you probably know this channel often has a great documentary on animal life. Their audio/visual presentations give the viewer wonderful insights into the life of animals. Often the animals in question are large mammals such as lions, gorillas, monkeys, etc.

Plato wrote, “An unexamined life is not worth living”. I find this a bit hyperbolic but nevertheless agree with the general point. Socrates also argued that the giving and receiving of knowledge, the active formation of another’s character, or the more passive growth under another’s guidance, is the truest and strongest foundation of love. Plato/Socrates judged that the basis of love is centered upon the mutual struggle for truth.

I would not attempt to explain why Plato’s Idealistic philosophy leads to this conclusion but I think one can find justification for this point of view by considering the nature of the parent to progeny relationship. Considering the nature of evolution one might easily discover that the origin of love could be observed in the obvious relationship of present day mammals. The educational relationship between the animal mother and their progeny are evident to the most casual observer.

Evolutionary Psychology is based on the theory that all human psychological traits, such as love, must be traceable to our evolutionary ancestors. The source of love in humans is evolved from the mother infant relationship in early mammals (perhaps).

What do you judge to be the primordial animal source (assuming an acceptance of the validity of Darwin’s theory of natural selection) for the emotion of love in humans?

[Mattshark]

Oxytocin

[DarkNova@]

CareBears !

[Moon Minion]

Oxytocin

And Moon Minion proceeded to look that word up in a dictionary...

But couldn't find it...

She hoped no one would laugh at her expense.

[Moon Minion]

Oh never mind, I'm slow tonight, found it. For some reason I confused it with Oxycontin.... *sighs*

[Mattshark]

Oh never mind, I'm slow tonight, found it. For some reason I confused it with Oxycontin.... *sighs*

It is a hormone released in both maternal situations and in romantic ones. In many animals the lack of this hormone results in no parental behaviour at all.

[WoIverine]

Where did love come from? From someone who obviously hates men lol.

[Moon Minion]

It is a hormone released in both maternal situations and in romantic ones. In many animals the lack of this hormone results in no parental behaviour at all.

Yes, I Googled it when my poorly listed dictionary failed me lol

thanks mate

[Alchera]

I think I have come to the conclusion that love is pureley a survival instinct that helps us, and I'm certain; may sometimes hinder us. This doesn't make it any less meaningful though.

[greggK]

Plato wrote, “An unexamined life is not worth living”. I find this a bit hyperbolic but nevertheless agree with the general point. Socrates also argued that the giving and receiving of knowledge, the active formation of another’s character, or the more passive growth under another’s guidance, is the truest and strongest foundation of love. Plato/Socrates judged that the basis of love is centered upon the mutual struggle for truth.

I had to stop there and let something catch up. I don't know, maybe I was laggin' behind. But is another name for Socrates Plato. I thought they were two different people.

Quickie from Wiki: “Plato constructed the Symposium as a story within a story within a story. This architecture creates the space for Plato to build his philosophy of knowledge. The speech of Socrates points out that the highest purpose of Love is to become a Philosopher, or Lover of Wisdom.”

I could do better than that!

[Virtual Particle]

Courtship

When two parties discover a mutual interest at the beginning of breeding season, they court for several days, even while others try to interfere. During this time they have been known to change color, swim side by side holding tails or grip the same strand of sea grass with their tails and wheel around in unison in what is known as their “pre-dawn dance”. They eventually engage in their “true courtship dance” lasting about 8 hours, during which the male pumps water through the egg pouch on his trunk which expands and cleaves open to display an appealing emptiness. When the female’s eggs reach maturity, she and her mate let go of any anchors and snout-to-snout, drift upward out of the seagrass, often spiraling as they rise. The female inserts her ovipositor into the male’s brood pouch, where she deposits her eggs, which the male fertilizes. The fertilized eggs then embed in the pouch wall and become enveloped with tissue.[4] New research indicates the male releases sperm into the surrounding sea water during fertilization, and not directly into the pouch as was previously thought.

[5] Most seahorse species' pregnancies last two to four weeks.

As the female squirts anywhere from dozens to thousands of eggs from a chamber in her trunk into the male pouch, her body slims while his swells. Both seahorses then sink back to the bottom and she swims away. Scientists believe the courtship behaviour serves to synchronize the movements of the two animals so that the male can receive the eggs when the female is ready to deposit them. The eggs are then fertilized in the father’s pouch which is coursed with prolactin, the same hormone responsible for milk production in pregnant women. He doesn’t supply milk, but his pouch provides oxygen as well as a controlled environment incubator. The eggs then hatch in the pouch where the salinity of the water is regulated; this prepares the newborns for life in the sea.[6][7] Throughout the male’s incubation, his mate visits him daily for “morning greetings”. The female seahorse swims over for about 6 minutes of interaction reminiscent of courtship. They change color, wheel around sea grass fronds, and finally promenade, holding each other’s tails. Then, the female swims away until the next morning, and the male goes back to vacuuming up food through his snout. [6]

Birth

The number of young released by the male seahorse averages 100-200 for most species, but may be a low as 5 for the smaller species, or as high as 1500, with pregnancy lasting from two to four weeks, depending on the species[8] When the fry are ready to be born, the male undergoes muscular contractions to expel them from his pouch. He typically gives birth at night and is ready for the next batch of eggs by morning when his mate returns. Like almost all other fish species, seahorses do not care for their young once they are born. Infants are susceptible to death from predators or being swept into ocean currents, where they drift away from rich feeding grounds or into temperatures too extreme for their delicate bodies. Fewer than five infants of every 1,000 born survive to adulthood, helping to explain why litters are so large. The survival rates of these infants are actually fairly high compared to fish standards, because they are initially sheltered in their father’s pouch during the earliest stages of development, while the eggs of most other fish are abandoned immediately after fertilization. [7] This makes the process worth the great cost to the father of incubating his offspring.

Rest of article

As far as I remember Seahorses are one of the few animals that seem to maintain one relationship with one member of the opposite sex. It is no so much that I am trying to present that these small animals understand what love is to a human but it does in fact seem something to aspire to in a relationship.

Any thoughts?

Edited May 21, 2009 by Triad

[coberst]

I suspect that like all of natural selection that the better the bond between the nurturing mother and the infant the more likely the survival of the infant and thus those mutations that helped this bonding became part of the gene pool.

[greggK]

Oh, so Plato and Socrates bonded, ahhh.

Well, if you believe in the bible, this world has never known love. It is written in your DNA, women, that your desire will be for your husband. And your husband caused the ground to be cursed and the thorns and thistles to grow and you caused pain in childbirth. What is to love about that?

[Virtual Particle]

Oh, so Plato and Socrates bonded, ahhh.

Well, if you believe in the bible, this world has never known love. It is written in your DNA, women, that your desire will be for your husband. And your husband caused the ground to be cursed and the thorns and thistles to grow and you caused pain in childbirth. What is to love about that?

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Any thoughts?

[Moon Minion]

Oh, so Plato and Socrates bonded, ahhh.

Well, if you believe in the bible, this world has never known love. It is written in your DNA, women, that your desire will be for your husband. And your husband caused the ground to be cursed and the thorns and thistles to grow and you caused pain in childbirth. What is to love about that?

That was part of their punishment for eating the fruit of the forbidden tree.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Any thoughts?

1 John 4:8- mentions - God is love.

[Harte]

Where did love come from?

What do you judge to be the primordial animal source (assuming an acceptance of the validity of Darwin’s theory of natural selection) for the emotion of love in humans?

Depends on what kind of love.

Certainly the love for offspring arises the way Matt describes. However, the single pair bonding behavior of a husband a wife (assuming they do so bond) is another thing altogether.

But, both are based on survival of the genetic heritage of the DNA carried by parents.

On the other hand, a male being pair-bonded can be argued to be anti-survival from the point of view of his DNA.

A quandary, really.

Harte

[Mattshark]

Depends on what kind of love.

Certainly the love for offspring arises the way Matt describes. However, the single pair bonding behavior of a husband a wife (assuming they do so bond) is another thing altogether.

But, both are based on survival of the genetic heritage of the DNA carried by parents.

On the other hand, a male being pair-bonded can be argued to be anti-survival from the point of view of his DNA.

A quandary, really.

Harte

Oxytocin has been linked to romantic relationships too, though obviously the evolutionary background to this will differ than with parental care.

Oxytocin and romance anxiety.

Female beahaviour and oxytocin.

The hormonal changes of falling in love.

Extra pair bonding can work both ways though, in birds extra pair bonding is seen in females commonly as she may distinguish between the best genes and the best parent, so obviously the male doesn't want that either.

Edited May 21, 2009 by Mattshark

[Virtual Particle]

Mattshark Love came from God. I actually provided Therapy (unofficially of course) to an individual who had been through the Prudence Calabreese version of Remote Viewing as well am completely aware of "Far point" with respect to Technical Remote Viewing.

Let me be clear you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Any thoughts?

Edited June 3, 2009 by Triad

[Mattshark]

Mattshark Love came from God. I actually provided Therapy (unofficially of course) to an individual who had been through the Prudence Calabreese version of Remote Viewing as well am I aware of "Far point" with respect to Technical Remote Viewing.

Let me be clear you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Any thoughts?

Oh feel free to prove that .

Then feel free to say why it is nothing to do with oxytocin.

Then feel free to provide evidence of remote viewing.

Then feel free to show that there is a deity.

[Virtual Particle]

No probem all you HAVE to do is access my personal report.

Any thoughts

[Mattshark]

No probem all you HAVE to do is access my personal report.

Any thoughts

I would actually like science please.

I asked for evidence. I have posted papers that show a link between oxytocin and both romantic and parental love. So please tell me why those papers are wrong and your religious belief is right.

Is there evidence of a deity? No.

Is there evidence of remote viewing? No.

Is it pseudo-scientific to answer: God did it? Yes.

"God did it" is the worst of all cop outs, it is not bothering to actually answer the question, it is replacing unknown with unknown and that is worse again if you ignore what we do know.

[eight bits]

I have removed a number of posts which appear to be about recruiting a member of the forum into a study of remote viewing. That is contrary to the terms and conditions of the forum:

1b. Recruitment: Do not recruit site visitors in to joining other web sites, forums or groups, request participation in surveys, petitions, contests, protests, political campaigns, fund raisers or

money making schemes.

The subject of this thread is Where did love come from? Please discuss that here.

Thank you for your cooperation.

Edited June 4, 2009 by eight bits
typo

[Virtual Particle]

That would be me eight-bits It was all a jest not really meant as anything in reality.

Triad

[greggK]

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son.

Any thoughts?

That whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. We are all members of one body, if one member is hurt, we all are affected.

I guess love is created by the mixture of several amino acids and enzymes produced in the Hypothalamus gland?

Edited June 5, 2009 by greggK

[Guest Bertrand]

From the evolutionary standpoint, the development of social interaction necessarily follows the frail, non-predatorial mammals like humans. The herd protects offspring from lesser threats, though herds usually haul tail and rarely act as a whole to defend a single offspring. Add to that the fact that humans are developmentally lagging at birth compared to other animals. The theory is that due to our cerebral size at birth, which allows us to pass through the female pelvis, versus cerebral growth and developemnt through maturation, our brains are under-developed. In other animals, usually within a couple of hours of birth-- if not sooner-- the animal is at least able to move freely and expel waste properly and so on. The human infant is incapable of most actions. So, the human female must be more protective and attentive to the brat until it can develop enough to survive.

Most probably, the increase in brain mass coincided with the development of hormonal triggers (including oxytocin, prolactin, etc.) that created a bonding effect between female and offspring. Again, due to human frailty, we remained a social animal with greater strength in numbers, and likely individual pairing. Ergo, there existed numerous social and environmental pressures favoring this bonding over the generations. We call it "love" because of those darn sonnets.

The question I find interesting is why human females are not seasonal... what are the benefits (especially in this Malthusian age) and how did that develop?