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__Kratos__

North Korea conducts nuclear test

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__Kratos__
North Korea has staged a "successful" underground nuclear test, the state-run KCNA agency reports.

The agency says it was more powerful than an earlier test in October 2006.

South Korea's president immediately convened an emergency security meeting and Japan is setting up a task force in the prime minister's office.

Last month, North Korea pulled out of six-party talks on its nuclear plans, in protest against condemnation of its test-firing of a rocket.

linked-imageRead more...

Madness... As if they're not isolated enough they've got to keep this crap up.

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MARAB0D
Madness... As if they're not isolated enough they've got to keep this crap up.

Whoops! Wrong answer! They are NOT on their own at all. They are a proxy of Russia and China, who, through this test, state they can blast Japan and US without being formally involved. Also it is a sort of "we can do it!" thing for the folks like Iran and Venezuela, because NOW the States would not be able to do anything at all with NK. Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination. North Korea is absolutely invincible, and they sure know about this! In case it gets all wrong, the Daddy would come and help.

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jesspy
Whoops! Wrong answer! They are NOT on their own at all. They are a proxy of Russia and China, who, through this test, state they can blast Japan and US without being formally involved. Also it is a sort of "we can do it!" thing for the folks like Iran and Venezuela, because NOW the States would not be able to do anything at all with NK. Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination. North Korea is absolutely invincible, and they sure know about this! In case it gets all wrong, the Daddy would come and help.

Never thought of it like that before. But would China back them in a fight? The whole test thing is to ruffle some feathers. I do notthink much will come of it. Maybe its a cover cause Kim is sick or something and they are just showing the country and the world that all is well. I think Bush would have done something but I dont think Obama will.

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__Kratos__

N.Korea conducts second nuclear test, U.N. to meet

SEOUL (Reuters) – North Korea conducted a second nuclear test on Monday that was far more powerful than its first one, triggering an emergency U.N. Security Council meeting on the hermit state's defiant act and drawing condemnation from around the globe.

Financial markets in Asia wobbled on briefly the news. Markets in the United States and Britain were closed for a holiday.

U.S. President Barack Obama said Pyongyang's attempts at developing nuclear weapons was a threat to international peace and security and the international community would need to respond.

The North's neighbor and long-time benefactor, China, said it was "resolutely opposed" to the test.

Russia, which also called the test a threat to regional security, said the blast was about equal in power to the U.S. atom bomb dropped on the Japanese city of Nagasaki in World War Two.

Ratcheting up tensions further, North Korea test-fired three short-range missiles just hours later, Yonhap news agency said.

"North Korea's nuclear and ballistic missile programs pose a grave threat to the peace and security of the world, and I strongly condemn their reckless action," Obama said at the White House.

"The United States and the international community must take action in response," he said.

More of the article here: Link

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Just some more info.

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Corp
Whoops! Wrong answer! They are NOT on their own at all. They are a proxy of Russia and China, who, through this test, state they can blast Japan and US without being formally involved. Also it is a sort of "we can do it!" thing for the folks like Iran and Venezuela, because NOW the States would not be able to do anything at all with NK. Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination. North Korea is absolutely invincible, and they sure know about this! In case it gets all wrong, the Daddy would come and help.

...this is a joke right?

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MARAB0D
...this is a joke right?

LOL, Corp! I HOPE it was a joke, but you know... NK is at the moment in a dangerous for everyone position in some sense similar to what Poland was in on the moment of 1939. It is a weak insignificant country, but has an ability to provoke a WW with little effort on their part. Poles are suspected in attacking the radio station, which involved Germany, France and UK in the WW2, Earlier the Serbs shot Archduke Franz-Ferdinand and thus initiated WW1... And what if NK bombs Tokio?

Obviously, Russia and China helped it with research, no doubts here, maybe even with materials. They hoped to have a proxy on a short leash, but as soon as Korea became nuclear, they lost the leverage over it, and perhaps now NK may blackmail them both, threatening to attack SK or Japan or even USA... NK now is a loose cannon, and little can be done to it because the countries outside it do not have any mutual trust too and hardly can cooperate.

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MARAB0D

BTW, note the location of the test site! Its almost equal distance from Chinese and Russian borders, perhaps few dozen miles away. I have my doubts someone would dare ever to nuke that place!

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Corp

China is already backing off on some of their support for North Korea because of the crazy stuff Kim's been doing. If shooting actually started I can see them staying neutral for the most part. No point losing all their economic deals because some nut jobs decides he wants to pretend he's the next world conquer. As for Russia...why would they care? Russia has never had much influence in Korea and the main reason they're involved is because they're in the general area. There is zero reason why they would help North Korea other than to annoy China and Japan.

The only way a world war could be started over Korea is if China decided to go nuts and invade South Korea and Japan. NATO wouldn't get involved in any major way because South Korea could handle the North on their own. Japan wouldn't do much since they're forbidden to take offensive actions, but they can still find loopholes in that to offer aid. And Russia has no reason what so ever to get involved in any Korean fight.

Figure this is mainly just Kim trying to get more attention.

Edited by Corp

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President-Elect Acidhead
Whoops! Wrong answer! They are NOT on their own at all. They are a proxy of Russia and China, who, through this test, state they can blast Japan and US without being formally involved. Also it is a sort of "we can do it!" thing for the folks like Iran and Venezuela, because NOW the States would not be able to do anything at all with NK. Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination. North Korea is absolutely invincible, and they sure know about this! In case it gets all wrong, the Daddy would come and help.

I'm going to throw this one out there: What 'if' NK has been an American, anglo-american or simply just a false flag state put in place by ? since the end of the Korean war. :whistle:

I've heard this theory before... thoughts? What discredits it or what 'could' give credence to it?

...please.. ohhhh please.... be kind in response... :lol:

Edited by acidhead

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Corp
I'm going to throw this one out there: What 'if' NK has been an American, anglo-american or simply just a false flag state put in place by ? since the end of the Korean war. :whistle:

I've heard this theory before... thoughts? What discredits it or what 'could' give credence to it?

...please.. ohhhh please.... be kind in response... :lol:

Hmm...wouldn't really think that'd be the case since China wouldn't have accepted it. The 'end' of the Korean War is rather clear cut since China wasn't willing to allow the North to be annexed but didn't have the strength to push out the UN forces, and the UN wasn't willing to allow the South to be annexed but didn't have the number or will to continue the fight into China.

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Stardrive
Whoops! Wrong answer! They are NOT on their own at all. They are a proxy of Russia and China, who, through this test, state they can blast Japan and US without being formally involved. Also it is a sort of "we can do it!" thing for the folks like Iran and Venezuela, because NOW the States would not be able to do anything at all with NK. Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination. North Korea is absolutely invincible, and they sure know about this! In case it gets all wrong, the Daddy would come and help.

They may not be on their own at the moment, but, if they got to feeling froggy and lobbed a nuke at say, Japan, their butts would be grass and China would be the lawn mower. Because as you pointed out, they are in close proximity to NK and would deem it a matter of national security to take out any potential "targets" (nuclear or otherwise) so close to their border.

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Guardsman Bass
Whoops! Wrong answer! They are NOT on their own at all. They are a proxy of Russia and China, who, through this test, state they can blast Japan and US without being formally involved. Also it is a sort of "we can do it!" thing for the folks like Iran and Venezuela, because NOW the States would not be able to do anything at all with NK. Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination.

This is taking what they have with China (not Russia) too far. The Chinese don't use them as a proxy, but they help keep the regime in power because the alternatives, to their eyes, are worse: a chaotic mess resulting in millions of North Koreans flooding over the Chinese-North Korea border, followed by a united Korean regime with strong US-ties and probably US troops sitting near the border with China.

I suspect, though, that if the Norks started a fight, the Chinese wouldn't rush to defend them; as I mentioned, they help them only because they don't like the other possibilities.

Do not forget, to nuke NK American missiles have to fly TOWARD China and Russia, and these two would RETALIATE before they find our the real destination.

Unless, of course, we tell them we're nuking North Korea, which is what would most likely happen. Moreover, the flight paths for strikes on North Korea are different from those for Chinese and Russian targets, and the latter two would realize this pretty quickly.

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Corp

Well why would the US bother with nukes at all? Normal missiles and bombs will do the job just as well without that messy fallout.

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President-Elect Acidhead
Well why would the US bother with nukes at all? Normal missiles and bombs will do the job just as well without that messy fallout.

--or use a soft kill weapon...

America could drop Kentucky Fried chicken on them.... fatten them and watch the slow, moaning death creep across their lands. :lol:

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Corp
--or use a soft kill weapon...

America could drop Kentucky Fried chicken on them.... fatten them and watch the slow, moaning death creep across their lands. :lol:

acidhead what is very offensive when you consider the millions in North Korea who are starving! :angry:

The correct way to stop a Korean invasion is to threaten to stop the release of Starcraft 2 :P

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MARAB0D
Well why would the US bother with nukes at all? Normal missiles and bombs will do the job just as well without that messy fallout.

This is hardly possible, if we take into account what was happening during the last Korean war. Chinese army was there for sure in hundreds of thousands, but there were Russian pilots too. Korea has a strategic location for both of them, and both of them trust each other no more than each of them trusts to USA - Korea understands this very well, and this makes it to be a pivot point. But the same time it threatens to everyone with NK becoming too independent from its patrons.

Whatever they say in Security Council (of course what they say publicly) makes no expression of their real intentions. All three, China, Russia and USA make their policies independently from each other, and each of three is always ready to confront another two or either of the two. Russia and USA openly arm India, to keep it checking the Chinese back, USA and China support Pakistan, to keep Islamic threat closer to Russia, Russia and China build nuclear Korea to keep USA busy... This is a big game, and those like Japan or even Europe are only the small fish caught in it. For Russia NK is a bargain chip against Japan, as Russia still technically in war with the latter and they have territorial disputes. For China NK is a tool to weaken US' attention to Taiwan. For NK itself nuclear weapons is a way to boost its own significance when negotiating the reunification with S Korea, as they are surely worth more being a nuclear power, not only a poor relative - and the Communist elite is probably seeking some share of S Korean wealth in exchange for the merge. US for NK is a hostage, first of all because they are able to kill the American troops in SK, and US cannot withdraw the troops, being afraid of China or Russia to initiate a war between North and South.

What China says about the possibility of refugees is not 100% realistic. Russia has depopulated areas right next to Korean border, and the Koreans are very welcome to migrate in any time, as Russian government wants Korean migrants - there is already plenty of Koreans living in Russia, and they blend very well, while in the Far East Korean migrants would counterbalance the Chinese migrants, which are already in their millions. The same time Russia has little against South Korea and even sells weapons to it, so on the prospects of the regime fall or the war between North and South, China and Russia may have opposite opinions, as Russia feels threatened by the overpopulated Chinese provinces at the border areas.

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KRS-One

This thread has a lot of speculation about warmongering in a situation where it's clear that NK wants only to bring more aid and attention to the table.

If anything, this will be allowed to continue as the world rolls its eyes and lets Kim Il Sung II further his funtime starvation and re-education campaign hoping that he kicks the bucket relatively soon and remaining Juche cabinet members can be "persuaded" or bought off to start opening the country, like we're waiting to happen to Castro.

The thought of this causing world war III or some crazy scenario is just a war-porn fantasy.

Edited by KRS-One

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MARAB0D
This thread has a lot of speculation about warmongering in a situation where it's clear that NK wants only to bring more aid and attention to the table.

If anything, this will be allowed to continue as the world rolls its eyes and lets Kim Il Sung II further his funtime starvation and re-education campaign hoping that he kicks the bucket relatively soon and remaining Juche cabinet members can be "persuaded" or bought off to start opening the country, like we're waiting to happen to Castro.

The thought of this causing world war III or some crazy scenario is just a war-porn fantasy.

You just compared NK with Cuba... I do not know how old you are, but in my memory we were one inch from WW3 once, precisely because of Cuba! Moreover, noone was even expecting this and noone was ready for this. And Cuba did not have any nuclear weapons, it only allowed them to be installed. In NK case this country possesses nuclear weapons and there is absolutely no control on how, when and against whom it can use them. This factor of uncertainty is the reason for the concerns.

When Kim dies (and he is not an old man at all!) his generals may start fighting. Some of them may use South Korean support, and some may use the nukes at will. I am not saying this would necessarily happen, but it can happen. And if this happens, this would happen at the moment when the peace is not already stable at all, given the number of ongoing and frozen conflicts. You may notice that within the last decade more and more countries decide to use military force, and the same picture we saw in late 1930s. No one ever wants a war, the wars happen by themselves because some countries find themselves cornered.

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omerta

So when is Team America going to step in? :D

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ninjadude
In NK case this country possesses nuclear weapons and there is absolutely no control on how, when and against whom it can use them.

So NK has no control over their weapons? Really? where did you get this idea?

You may notice that within the last decade more and more countries decide to use military force...

Mostly attributable to the Bush 8 year cowboy mentality. In case you have not noticed, that time is over. We are now trying to extricate ourselves from these situations. You'll notice that NetinYahoo got a "surprise" reception in Washington this week over the Israelis building settlements. I guess some people in the world just don't understand, our politics changed in November last year. It may not be as fast as I would like, but it is happening.

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AROCES
Mostly attributable to the Bush 8 year cowboy mentality. In case you have not noticed, that time is over. We are now trying to extricate ourselves from these situations. You'll notice that NetinYahoo got a "surprise" reception in Washington this week over the Israelis building settlements. I guess some people in the world just don't understand, our politics changed in November last year. It may not be as fast as I would like, but it is happening.

Yeah, we are trying the Jimmy Carter approach again.

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KRS-One
You just compared NK with Cuba... I do not know how old you are, but in my memory we were one inch from WW3 once, precisely because of Cuba!

Evidently much younger and less forgetful than yourself.

We were at a brink of WW3 not because of Cuba, but because of the USSR. The USSR developed the weapons. The USSR deployed the weapons. Cuba pretty much got something that starts with a large F when asked their opinion by either global side.

My particular comparison however was that TODAY'S Cuba is similar to TODAY'S NK, in that we are fundamentally sitting out both leaders extremist views (which are not held by the people in either country) to pass on so that the transfer of dictatorship can be disrupted. Kim Jung Il II may not be "all that old", but there are pretty consistent reports out that he's not doing that hot. Quite a few people think he might already be dead (I'm not a conspiracy theorist however, so don't count me among them, but I have heard the guys not well off).

When Kim dies (and he is not an old man at all!) his generals may start fighting.
This is my point in how we are waiting for him to go so there's division, same as in Cuba.

Some of them may use South Korean support
What support? Show me sources where NK General command has significant southern popular or military support.

some may use the nukes at will.

The nukes they can't launch and may not be able to detonate outside of laboratory conditions? I'm terrified.

And if this happens, this would happen at the moment when the peace is not already stable at all, given the number of ongoing and frozen conflicts.

To quote my favorite Shakespeare character:

"Peace. Peace? I hate the word..."

What peace are you referring to that is so unstable and among which ongoing and "frozen" conflicts that haven't manifested themselves in almost 6 decades can cause a global nuclear war by NK being a dick?

You may notice that within the last decade more and more countries decide to use military force, and the same picture we saw in late 1930s. No one ever wants a war, the wars happen by themselves because some countries find themselves cornered.

If you'd like to be proven very wrong about the buildup to any particular WW, please, start another thread and we can discuss this. Your soliloquy on the causes of WWII will have to remain just that in this thread.

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ExpandMyMind
So NK has no control over their weapons? Really? where did you get this idea?

you missed the point. he didn't mean they literally don't have the ability to use their weapons.

Mostly attributable to the Bush 8 year cowboy mentality. In case you have not noticed, that time is over. We are now trying to extricate ourselves from these situations. You'll notice that NetinYahoo got a "surprise" reception in Washington this week over the Israelis building settlements. I guess some people in the world just don't understand, our politics changed in November last year. It may not be as fast as I would like, but it is happening.

how are you trying to get out of these situations?

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Corp
This is hardly possible, if we take into account what was happening during the last Korean war. Chinese army was there for sure in hundreds of thousands, but there were Russian pilots too. Korea has a strategic location for both of them, and both of them trust each other no more than each of them trusts to USA - Korea understands this very well, and this makes it to be a pivot point. But the same time it threatens to everyone with NK becoming too independent from its patrons.

Whatever they say in Security Council (of course what they say publicly) makes no expression of their real intentions. All three, China, Russia and USA make their policies independently from each other, and each of three is always ready to confront another two or either of the two. Russia and USA openly arm India, to keep it checking the Chinese back, USA and China support Pakistan, to keep Islamic threat closer to Russia, Russia and China build nuclear Korea to keep USA busy... This is a big game, and those like Japan or even Europe are only the small fish caught in it. For Russia NK is a bargain chip against Japan, as Russia still technically in war with the latter and they have territorial disputes. For China NK is a tool to weaken US' attention to Taiwan. For NK itself nuclear weapons is a way to boost its own significance when negotiating the reunification with S Korea, as they are surely worth more being a nuclear power, not only a poor relative - and the Communist elite is probably seeking some share of S Korean wealth in exchange for the merge. US for NK is a hostage, first of all because they are able to kill the American troops in SK, and US cannot withdraw the troops, being afraid of China or Russia to initiate a war between North and South.

What China says about the possibility of refugees is not 100% realistic. Russia has depopulated areas right next to Korean border, and the Koreans are very welcome to migrate in any time, as Russian government wants Korean migrants - there is already plenty of Koreans living in Russia, and they blend very well, while in the Far East Korean migrants would counterbalance the Chinese migrants, which are already in their millions. The same time Russia has little against South Korea and even sells weapons to it, so on the prospects of the regime fall or the war between North and South, China and Russia may have opposite opinions, as Russia feels threatened by the overpopulated Chinese provinces at the border areas.

I personally think you're looking too much into the situation but even if what you believe is true it would only mean that China and Russia would want to keep more control over North Korea. After all if things so hot its their territory that's going to be the worst hit. And I don't know if we're going to see any kind of reunification of Korea in the next few years. North Korea doesn't want to give up what power they have and South Korea doesn't want to destroy their economy trying to keep the North afloat. Because nukes bring nothing to the table since South Korea could develop nuclear weapons if they really wanted to. And I don't see how the US is the hostage since any kind of fighting would be mainly done by South Korean forces and they're not withdrawing their forces because the South Korean governments wants those troops there and to help guard American interests. If those troops pulled out tomorrow China and Russia would not be falling over themselves to restart the Korean War and the US knows this.

The best deal for China would be for Korea to be united into one stable control that took orders from them. Best deal for the US would be for slow reforms to start in North Korea until they've been built up to a level were the countries can be united without too much trouble. As for Russia I don't think they really care one way or another just as long as things stay quiet and they get a piece of the pie.

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MARAB0D
So NK has no control over their weapons? Really? where did you get this idea?

Mostly attributable to the Bush 8 year cowboy mentality. In case you have not noticed, that time is over. We are now trying to extricate ourselves from these situations. You'll notice that NetinYahoo got a "surprise" reception in Washington this week over the Israelis building settlements. I guess some people in the world just don't understand, our politics changed in November last year. It may not be as fast as I would like, but it is happening.

There is no OUTSIDE control to their nukes. All other countries have their means to watch each other, thats why we are not digging the shelters.

At the current moment USA already not in full control over what is happening. Its not American wars which disturb me, we have this Shri-Lanka, Nigerian Delt, Georgia, Karabagh, Kurdish insurgency in Turkey and Iran, Israel, Colombian and Venezuelan guerilla wars, Pakistans crackdown on Taleban, Somalia, more to come soon. By now we have similar numbers of refugees than it was during WW1, they come to the neighbouring countries and disturb piece in them, with possibility of domino effect. When US troops leave Iraq, there would be a major civil war there too. Bush only introduced this new fashion (in fact it was Clinton who started first), but the others feel like terminators too and it is hard to stop this all.

Specifically about Israel - I think the "new policies" of Obama is a reaction to reality, which came a bit too late, as the reality has already changed. Israel already is a nuclear state and is capable to carry its own policies without asking Obama or anyone else. USA is not the only power which wants to be Israel's ally, and obviously US has less influence on Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah than Russia or China have. Not only 1/3 of the Israeli population have Russian citizenship and relatives back there, this part makes up a majority of its middle class and well-represented in the Knesset. Of course they listen to Obama - but only until he stops the payments and weapons supply, as this is the only leverage.

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