Air France

[Raptor Witness]

Excellent

of recent discoveries. Lots of new stuff in these clips.

[Eternal Light]

The bodies, discovered along with several items from the plane earlier in the day, were being transported by the Constituicao Frigate roughly 675 kilometers (420 miles) southward to Fernando de Noronha, an archipelago of volcanic islands in the Atlantic Ocean, said Col. Henry Munhoz, spokesman for the Brazilian air force.

From there, they will be flown another 355 kilometers (220 miles) to the northern Brazilian city of Recife, Munhoz said. The bodies will be examined by Brazilian forensics experts for identification.

Air France 447 vanished over the Atlantic early Monday en route from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, to Paris, France, with 228 passengers and crew aboard.

The discoveries on Saturday provided new-found hope to anxious relatives awaiting news.

"When I heard about this accident, they told us there were no bodies, no pieces of the plane," Nelson Faria Marinho, the father of a missing passenger, told Globo News television in Rio de Janeiro.

"Now, it's all surfacing," he said. "We have pieces of the airplane. We have bodies. This renews my hope. As a father, I can't think of the worst. I couldn't." Video Watch President Obama talk about the tragedy »

Also found Saturday were a backpack and a leather briefcase containing an airplane ticket with a reservation code, which Air France verified belonged to a passenger on the jet, another air force spokesman, Jorge Amaral, told CNN.

The Brazilian navy and air force officials said the backpack contained a laptop, and an oxygen mask also was discovered.

The serial number on a blue seat is still being cross checked to determine whether it belonged to the Air France plane.

How terribly tragic. I don't know why, but I cannot stop thinking about the 11 year old unaccompanied boy going back to boarding school, and of how frightened he must have been. I hope someone comforted him, and that he wasn't alone at the end.

[Bill Hill]

Reminds me of a time when a plane malfunctioned above the atlantic

A row of seats containing three passengers were blown out of the side of fuselage.

The plane landed safely, apart from the three unfortunates.. who investigators reckon were still alive when they hit the sea..

could you image being one of them, one minute, you're sitting there, next minute you're floating in the night sky..32,000 ft above the Atlantic ocean.

What a beautiful image to behold...

what would you say to guy sitting next to you?

"wow like, How did this happen?"

"I don't know"

"Weird"

[Fluffybunny]

"wow like, How did this happen?"

"I don't know"

"Weird"

Further along:

"Hey, you goona read that?"

"No...help yourself...great article on vacation spots in Upstate New York...I dog eared the page with the ad for the personalized humidor: I am so into that"

'

[Bill Hill]

Further along:

"Hey, you goona read that?"

"No...help yourself...great article on vacation spots in Upstate New York...I dog eared the page with the ad for the personalized humidor: I am so into that"

'

I probably say something like that, or try and say something profound

"Have you noticed, the sky's so beautiful up here and it's strange how we only appreciate life when it's gonna end?"

followed by...

"Sorry, was that pretentiou...........................

[Raptor Witness]

[Three more bodies found, many more seen from the air] - Fox News 6-7-09

I wonder if finding these bodies increases the likelihood of a mid air break up?

[stevewinn]

[Three more bodies found, many more seen from the air] - Fox News 6-7-09

I wonder if finding these bodies increases the likelihood of a mid air break up?

good question. does anyone think its possible these bodies found could have been people who survived the crash and have died of dehydration. you can only live three days without water. but can go three weeks without food.

[tarabull]

Anyone else thinking along these lines?!?!?

I have to admit it comes to mind...

I have to say first the lack of info regarding the cause & then the contradictory information is REALLY freaking me out.

In 7 short sleeps I'm boarding an Airbus 319 connecting to an Airbus 320, thankfully NOT Air France but at this point what's the difference...hopefully there are many.

Of course 7 sleeps after that I get to do it all again to get home - first the Airbus 320 then connect to the Airbus 319, alas home safe & sound....hopefully.

ARGGGGGGG.

Sorry if I'm sounding selfish - never doubt my heart is broken for all 228 aboard - each of their families & friends....

But knowing I have this trip to soon make has me having tarabull nightmares.

[tarabull]

good question. does anyone think its possible these bodies found could have been people who survived the crash and have died of dehydration. you can only live three days without water. but can go three weeks without food.

I've been wondering that....imagine they survived the crash but not the rescue or lack there of.

[Raptor Witness]

My instinct tells me that the flash of [white light] seen by the Spanish pilots, in the direction of flight 447, and approximately where it would of been, is not an accident or illusion. However, this would seem to contradict the stormy weather and obscuring clouds theory, right?

14-minute countdown to disaster

At 11pm on Sunday, the Airbus 330 was flying through black thunderstorms towering up 50,000 feet above sea-level, as updraft winds battered it at up to 100mph.

14 minutes later, with its systems failing, the plane was breaking apart and plummeting into the Atlantic ocean with 228 people onboard.

Exactly what happened during those terrifying moments may never be known, but the last messages sent out by the aircraft may give clues.

According to the New York Post:

At 11pm (2am GMT) pilot Marc Dubois sent a manual signal saying he was flying through an area of 'CBs' - black, electrically charged cumulonimbus clouds that carry violent winds and lightning.

At 11.10pm, automatic messages relayed by the jetliner indicated the autopilot had disengaged.

This suggested Dubois and his two co-pilots were trying to thread their way through the storm manually.

At this point a key computer system had switched to alternative power and controls needed to keep the plane stable had been damaged.

An alarm also sounded, indicating that the 'fly-by-wire' system on the Airbus that controls the flaps on the wings had shifted to 'alternate law'.

Alternate law is an emergency back-up system that kicks in after an electronic failure. It enables the plane to keep functioning with less energy - but reduces stability, which would have been desperately needed as the pilots battled to bring the jet safely out of the turbulence.

At 11.12pm, two key computers monitoring air speed, altitude and direction failed. These would have increased the pilot's loss of control over the plane.

The loss of instruments showing air speed in particular would have been detrimental. The pilot was trying to fly a fine line between slowing the plane enough to navigate through the turbulence, and not slowing so much that the plane stalled mid-air, which would have been catastrophic.

The messages show there was an inconsistency between the different measured airspeeds shortly after the plane entered the storm zone.

At 11.13pm, control of the main flight computer, back up system and wing spoilers also failed.

The last automatic message, at 11.14pm, indicated complete electrical failure and a massive loss of cabin pressure - catastrophic events, indicating that the plane was breaking apart and plunging toward the ocean.

Last night Airbus warned airline crews to follow standard procedures if they suspect speed indicators are faulty.

The Airbus telex was sent to customers of its A330s late yesterday. An industry official said such warnings are only sent if accident investigators have established facts that they consider important enough to pass on immediately to airlines.

The recommendation was authorised by the French air accident investigation agency (BEA) looking into the disaster. It has said the speed levels registered by the slew of messages from the plane showed 'incoherence'.

Airbus said its message to clients did not imply that the doomed pilots did anything wrong or that a design fault was in any way responsible for the crash.

'This Aircraft Information Telex is an information document that in no way implicates any blame,' a spokesman said today.

[Link]

Edited June 7, 2009 by Raptor Witness

[Feanor]

The fails messages listed above, according an expert from Brazilian Air Force, probably were sent during 4 minutes. 4 minutes was the time that the plane would take to hit the sea if it were on a vertical freefall. The messages probably were being sent while the plane “break” in parts while it fell to the ocean.

This may explain why the pilot did not send any radio messages back asking for help. Perhaps they were unconscious already due to pressurization problems.

Specialists highly doubt that there were any survivors from the crash. And, Brazil, France, USA are on the area doing their best to find bodies, debris and anything that can lead to what happened. The problem is that the area is huge and the sea currents can make debris and bodies vanish and appear on somewhere else on the Globe… Imagine the difficulties that the Navy and Air Forces have to do their job with these conditions.

The best thing now, would be pray for the souls of those who died so they can find peace and rest.

[Eternal Light]

This may explain why the pilot did not send any radio messages back asking for help. Perhaps they were unconscious already due to pressurization problems.

One can only fervently hope so.

[Raptor Witness]

The fails messages listed above, according an expert from Brazilian Air Force, probably were sent during 4 minutes. 4 minutes was the time that the plane would take to hit the sea if it were on a vertical freefall. The messages probably were being sent while the plane “break” in parts while it fell to the ocean.

This may explain why the pilot did not send any radio messages back asking for help. Perhaps they were unconscious already due to pressurization problems.

Specialists highly doubt that there were any survivors from the crash. And, Brazil, France, USA are on the area doing their best to find bodies, debris and anything that can lead to what happened. The problem is that the area is huge and the sea currents can make debris and bodies vanish and appear on somewhere else on the Globe… Imagine the difficulties that the Navy and Air Forces have to do their job with these conditions.

The best thing now, would be pray for the souls of those who died so they can find peace and rest.

Thanks for that info. I was curious as to about how long it would of taken for them to hit the water. There's no doubt that they broke apart in mid air. The feedback from the computer instruments is telling us that. So there would be no chance of survivors from this height, and no time for the plane to descend from this height in that time frame.

One thing that is curious to me is how quickly they are publishing the potential liability issues. Is this because of tort laws in France or Brazil? In the United States, I would not expect speculation of why a plane might go down before they had some serious evidence. All Air France has now is conflict of speed feedback, which could mean anything.

I suppose you could argue that they want to come clean early, to make it clear that these velocity instruments need to be replaced ASAP, but still ... it's almost as if they're throwing out a theory that has very little evidence to back it up, and long before the wreckage is recovered and analyzed.

[behaviour???]

Divers find large tail section from Air France jet

Brazilian divers found a large tail section from an Air France jet on Monday, one of the biggest pieces yet recovered from wreckage that is helping narrow the search for Flight 447's black boxes. A U.S. Navy team is bringing in high-tech underwater listening devices to detect pings from the data and voice recorders.

Brazilian and French military ships that have so far recovered 16 bodies and large amounts of plane wreckage searched amid a sea of floating debris, finding the tail section with Air France's trademark red and blue stripes.

Brazilian military officials reduced the number of recovered bodies from the 17 announced Sunday, saying there had been a counting error.

What caused the Airbus A330 to crash May 31 with 228 people on board will remain a mystery unless searchers can locate the plane's black box flight data and voice recorders, likely buried deep in the middle of the ocean.

Two U.S. Navy devices that can detect emergency beacons to a depth of 20,000 feet (6,100 meters) are being flown to Brazil with a Navy team, according to the Pentagon. They will be delivered to ships that will then listen for transmissions from the black boxes, which are programmed to emit signals for at least 30 days.

Click here for more details

Thanks

B???

[Siara]

I'm attempting to move this part of an Air France Conspiracy thread here, since we're not discussing conspiracy theories. Regarding the media coverage of the incident:

(Peter B @ Jun 8 2009, 07:06 AM in the Conspiracy Theory/Air France 447 thread)

Fair enough. Heck, I'm as interested as anyone in wanting to learn what happened. However, regardless of how interested we might be, I think the relatives have the right to hear information relevant to them directly from the airline, instead of (potentially unreliably) via the media.

Regarding my language, I was unhappy with the way you equated Air France's "utmost discretion" with an assumption they were trying to "hide" information, and Chemical-Licker's assertion without evidence about pilots and computers.

I have no problem with your right to be curious. As I said above, I'm curious as well. But how seriously are your rights infringed by not finding out information immediately?

Well said.

My rights aren't infringed, unless (I suppose) we want to drag some heavy Freedom of the Press issue into this, which I certainly don't.

I simply find Air France's reticence to reveal the facts odd. I strongly agree that the families need to get information regarding specific victims first (I believe that's the standard protocol in these sad situations). They don't need to hear that a relative has been identified while they're driving a car down the street or standing in line at the store, for example. I also think it's highly inappropriate to turn this into a real life version of CSI. Everything concerning specific people/ specific bodies is private.

But I'm intensely interested in news coverage and this is weird. I lived in France for a while and have a stepson who lived there for years. Their press is similar to ours-- open, immediate, vehement contradictory opinions expressed all over the place. And this time around they take DAYS to release the fact that they got 24 automatic error messages regarding the computers on board immediately before the crash.....?

This is beside the point but ....another thing that was bizarre was the heavy emphasis on the genders of the bodies recovered. Obviously this is a cultural thing rather than a "conspiracy" thing. But the worldwide announcements that the genders of the second group of bodies had not been revealed yet. I mean,,, what difference does it make? They're all accident victims. Obviously it must sell papers.

Peter B-- I'm not "outraged" about this in any PC way. I'm just fascinated by the press coverage. It tells us a lot about our culture. I'm also curious about the pitot problem since I myself almost died in a plane crash due to icing (the ice was on the wings in my case).

It's possible to be curious without being morbid.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Siara

[BlueZone]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/376433-af447.html

Here's a link to a forum on which professional pilots are discussing the specific error messages. It shows a transcript of exactly what was received by the Air France maintenance computers. The messages are in the code of the Airbus 330 Maintenance manual, but you can catch the meanings from the context of the discussion.

[Raptor Witness]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/376433-af447.html

Here's a link to a forum on which professional pilots are discussing the specific error messages. It shows a transcript of exactly what was received by the Air France maintenance computers. The messages are in the code of the Airbus 330 Maintenance manual, but you can catch the meanings from the context of the discussion.

Interesting communication on this forum ...

[Today, 05:11]

Quote:

All my posts regarding a theory where an exploding oxy bottle (located in the avionics compartment, where all the computers are located, and very near all the probes as well) would be the root cause of the accident (QF had an oxy bottle explode a few months ago, resulting in a huge hole in the fuselage) have been deleted!! Even the post where I ask what happened with my previous posts has been removed.

Is this thread being censored?

Yes. Posts which speculate on causes not backed up by the facts are being deleted by the moderators, I believe.

There is no reason to suppose any such explosion. "There was no explosive decompression indicated."

Marchino61

Edited June 9, 2009 by Raptor Witness

[Raptor Witness]

So essentially they don't believe there was a bomb because the cabin decompression took place after the computer failures.

Could we be dealing with a new type of weapon, perhaps? I find it naive to assume that a computer jamming weapon could not be created.

Concerns have already been expressed over the possibility of hacking a plane's computer system while in flight. Why no discussion of the possibility now?

Edited June 9, 2009 by Raptor Witness

[Sylent Nyte]

Hmm, maybe somebody's automated missile defense system misfired?

[MARAB0D]

Hmm, maybe somebody's automated missile defense system misfired?

This happened few years ago when a Ukrainian missile went astray and downed a Russian Aeroflot plane flying at 10,000 m altitude from Israel in some 500 km away from the target. But there the wreckage was showing 10mm round schrapnel holes all over the middle part of the hull.

[BlueZone]

One of the questions they're discussing on the pilot's forum I listed above is whether the loss of pressure was caused by a structural problem like outside air getting into the cabin or whether the computer problems themselves caused the cabin to decompress. A few pilots have pointed out that once the cabin decompressed at 30,000 feet the pilots on 447 would have had about 30 seconds of time to try and stabilize the plane before they passed out. To me this fact implied that the passengers passed out too, which would be good.

Also, with the computer system failing it's difficult to tell exactly how reliable the computer messages are.

[Lord Umbarger]

Everything about this seems like a terrorist attack except for the fact that no group has taken credit for it yet. Whenever some whack job terrorist does some thing like that, they always make as big a deal out of it as they can and this time we have heard nothing from any of them..... as far as I know we haven't anyway.

[acidhead]

Everything about this seems like a terrorist attack except for the fact that no group has taken credit for it yet. Whenever some whack job terrorist does some thing like that, they always make as big a deal out of it as they can and this time we have heard nothing from any of them..... as far as I know we haven't anyway.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (Arabic: خالد شيخ محمد‎; also transliterated as Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and additionally known by at least fifty aliases) confessed to it

along with the JFK assassination, 911 and killing Santa Claus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalid_Shaikh_Mohammed

[Raptor Witness]

One of the questions they're discussing on the pilot's forum I listed above is whether the loss of pressure was caused by a structural problem like outside air getting into the cabin or whether the computer problems themselves caused the cabin to decompress. A few pilots have pointed out that once the cabin decompressed at 30,000 feet the pilots on 447 would have had about 30 seconds of time to try and stabilize the plane before they passed out. To me this fact implied that the passengers passed out too, which would be good.

Also, with the computer system failing it's difficult to tell exactly how reliable the computer messages are.

That's interesting, because I always assumed that that's what the oxygen is for. Why would they pass out? They could breathe, couldn't they?

Everything about this seems like a terrorist attack except for the fact that no group has taken credit for it yet. Whenever some whack job terrorist does some thing like that, they always make as big a deal out of it as they can and this time we have heard nothing from any of them..... as far as I know we haven't anyway.

Oh that's easy, all the CIA needs to do is torture someone and there you'll have it. Instant confession.

[Feanor]

I am no quoting you guys today cause I am lazy and with a terrible headache, so I’m just answering some questions of Raptor and adding some more info that I hear over here.

Raptor, you asked me about the information that has been released, etc. Well, I think they are “supposing” based on the automatic messages they received. I also disagree with the way it was handled by Brazil and France government. They should have waited for facts before opening their mouths…

Anyways, based on most expert arguments, it is likely that the plane break in mid air while falling and those messages were sent during the freefall of the plane.

The terrorist attack is all speculation and no one have idea why would a terrorist blew an airplane in mid air over the ocean and not go public about it. They would try to throw the plane somewhere or at least make it public why they did it, etc.

There were aboard this AF 447 some important figures, like some French politicians, businessmen, etc. But I doubt they were targets for terrorism. It is more likely that it was an accident.

Specialists reported today that the plane entered cumulous nimbus clouds with very low temperatures, which could be responsible for the speed sensor problem. Air France is replacing sensors and they had problem with it before. But you know. Some actions are taken after the disaster and not before it!

Brazilian Navy and air force found a total of 48 corpses so far, but they decided to not reveal anything about them until the forensic specialists identify them.

They need to find the black box, but it will be very hard to find it, if they find it anyways.

One thing I was wondering here is: Why the engineers don’t design a black box able to float in water in case of a plane fell to the ocean? Would it be too hard to do it?