Ancient Electricity and Computing

[sepulchrave]

Right, even though I did not mention it: ceramic bowls can be fire plated. We are talking about silver bowls.

So you are making which point?

Apologies. I obviously didn't read your post carefully enough.

When you talk about gold-plated sliver bowls, are you sure the end product is not achievable through gilding? Gold is so malleable it can easily be hammered out extremely thin.

Are there other examples of objects plated with less malleable substances (tungsten, chromium)?

[questionmark]

Apologies. I obviously didn't read your post carefully enough.

When you talk about gold-plated sliver bowls, are you sure the end product is not achievable through gilding? Gold is so malleable it can easily be hammered out extremely thin.

Are there other examples of objects plated with less malleable substances (tungsten, chromium)?

Gilding has the bad property to separate after a time. To make gold plating permanent you have to chemical or metallurgical unite the surfaces, that can happen in form of an alloy (fire plating) or electrochemically, where in some cases you do not need an external power source (i.e. copper with silver or gold). Gilded objects have also been found, but mostly only recognized by finding an object and a "gold skin" that went with it as the gold does not corrode, but so does the carrier material.

As far as tungsten or chromium, here we come again to the backdrop of the time, those elements were neither recognized as metals then, nor was there a technology that could have processed them, especially not tungsten.

[aquatus1]

The serious archeological literature is full of examples of gold plating, both in Anatolia as Phoenician finds on Cyprus.

Yes, it is. But it is sorely lacking in examples of electro-plating.

Your first link doesn't work for me, and I wasn't able to find references to electroplating in the second one. Granted, it is long and unsearchable, so I might have missed it, so if you can specify where it is, I would appreciate it. Right now, it just looks like you googled "gold-plating" in general and put up a long link that had something to do with it.

Now, it could well be that the Baghdad "batteries" contained fruit juices, as long as they were acid they could have been used as electrolyte(you know the famous potato generator?).

Yeah, the Mythbusters tried that. Too little current to measure reliably.

[ShadowSot]

I watched this show once, and though i admit no one HERE will probably see them as anything to listen to.. I personally like the mythbusters.. but anyway.. on to the batteries

Should still be noted, MythBusters originally tried to make the batteries based off of how they were found in situ.

As it turned out, they didn't work, so they changed them a bit.

[questionmark]

Yeah, the Mythbusters tried that. Too little current to measure reliably.

Myth busters should try to make one and connect one to a gold anode and a copper cathode, and see if there is a plating after a week or so.

Now, I agree that there is no reference to electroplating, as of now it is still an unmentionable. On the other hand there is no reference to how the plating was done (not even an intent of an explanation), it is just accepted that it exists.

[Total Science]

Myth busters should try to make one and connect one to a gold anode and a copper cathode, and see if there is a plating after a week or so.

They could've done that but it wouldn't support their agenda.

http://www.iran-daily.com/1387/3342/html/science.htm

Now, I agree that there is no reference to electroplating, as of now it is still an unmentionable. On the other hand there is no reference to how the plating was done (not even an intent of an explanation), it is just accepted that it exists.

It is accepted because we have the physical evidence.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Total Science

[Total Science]

There is no evidence that the alleged Baghdad batteries ever actually made it outside of Baghdad (or that they were batteries). There is also no evidence of any electroplating; Just because they could do it doesn't mean they actually did.

So how did the Egyptians plate things with metal?

They could have built kites too, but there is no evidence they did that either

Kites have been dated to 1000 B.C. and they have been found well before that on cave art in Indonesia so I don't see what your point is.

http://www.drachen.org/journals/journal10/journal_10.pdf

It has long been believed by historians Clive Hart of England and Tal Streeter of the U.S. that the Chinese claim to the invention of the kite is invalid, that the kite is likely much older than previously thought and the Chinese argue.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Total Science

[aquatus1]

They could've done that but it wouldn't support their agenda.

What agenda would that be?

So how did the Egyptians plate things with metal?

By far, the vast majority were standard foil applied with either adhesive or pressure. There have, however, been some artifacts found that indicate chemical plating.

Kites have been dated to 1000 B.C. and they have been found well before that on cave art in Indonesia so I don't see what your point is.

You don't? I'm not sure how to make it clearer, but I'll try.

Thanks to our cumulative knowledge, we have the ability to do more with what the ancients had than they did. For instance, most of us could cobble together a hot-air balloon with what the ancient Egyptians had on hand. Similarly, most of us could build kites with what they had. This does not, however, mean that the ancient Egyptians could have done the same, because they did not have the prerequisite knowledge. Even if other places in the world, such as Indonesia and China, discovered the technology, that does not mean that a different civilization did.

So, even assuming that the Baghdad batteries were actually batteries (which I simply do not believe), but even assuming they were batteries, that does not mean that the same technology existed in ancient Egypt, and it does not mean that even if they were indeed batteries, and if they were used for electro-plating, that the Egyptians would know how to do it either.

In other words, it isn't enough that they could do it; there has to be evidence that they actually did do it.

Edited June 27, 2009 by aquatus1

[willowdreams]

They could've done that but it wouldn't support their agenda.

what agenda? I don't think they HAVE an agenda.. other then.. if it doesnt work the way it should work.. lets see what has to be done to MAKE it work.

oh.. and have fun doing it.

[Total Science]

What agenda would that be?

The mainstream dogma agenda.

By far, the vast majority were standard foil applied with either adhesive or pressure. There have, however, been some artifacts found that indicate chemical plating.

From what I've seen it was much more than tinfoil plating.

Tushratta, the king of Mitanni, complained to Akhenaten because he used to give them plated gold instead of gold all the way through.

Thanks to our cumulative knowledge, we have the ability to do more with what the ancients had than they did.

I'm skeptical of that.

For instance, most of us could cobble together a hot-air balloon with what the ancient Egyptians had on hand.

You're assuming there were no air balloons in the past even though you would have to admit that before the Ubaid period in Sumer in the 6th millennium the history of civilization is a total blank besides ancient Phrygia and Atlantis/Antarctica.

When you read history and science (e.g. Plato's Timaeus), observe meteorite impact craters, and the evidence for global conflagrations and floods it becomes obvious why this is the case.

"O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ... in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon [Venus], the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven. " -- Sonchis of Sais, priest, ~594 B.C.

Similarly, most of us could build kites with what they had. This does not, however, mean that the ancient Egyptians could have done the same, because they did not have the prerequisite knowledge.

You have absolutely no evidence of that so it's no surprise you believe it. Kites have been found on prehistoric cave art.

Even if other places in the world, such as Indonesia and China, discovered the technology, that does not mean that a different civilization did.

"The absense of evidence is not evidence of absense." -- Kenneth A. Kitchen, egyptologist, 1995

So, even assuming that the Baghdad batteries were actually batteries (which I simply do not believe)

Obviously not.

Edited June 27, 2009 by Total Science

[aquatus1]

The mainstream dogma agenda.

So, to be clear, what exactly is it that you think the Mythbusters do? Because what you are saying doesn't make sense.

From what I've seen it was much more than tinfoil plating.

Tinfoil?

Tushratta, the king of Mitanni, complained to Akhenaten because he used to give them plated gold instead of gold all the way through.

I would imagine so. A King would complain about getting something that's gold-plated, rather than massif gold.

I'm skeptical of that.

You are skeptical of what? Of the ability of a modern person to know about a greater variety of modern applications to basic materials? Heck, the fact that you could make a paper airplane and most ancient Egyptians (if any at all) couldn't, is all the evidence you need of that.

You're assuming there were no air balloons in the past even though you would have to admit that before the Ubaid period in Sumer in the 6th millennium the history of civilization is a total blank besides ancient Phrygia and Atlantis/Antarctica.

No, I'm saying that there is no evidence that the Egyptians had any air ballons, kites, or electro-plated artifacts. Why you keep refering to different civilizations is beyond me, as it has already been made abundantly clear that the entire point is that it doesn't matter what different civilizations (including ours) knew; what matters is what the relevant civilization (ancient Egypt) knew.

When you read history and science (e.g. Plato's Timaeus), observe meteorite impact craters, and the evidence for global conflagrations and floods it becomes obvious why this is the case.

"O Solon, Solon, you Hellenes are never anything but children, and there is not an old man among you. ... in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon [Venus], the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals; at such times those who live upon the mountains and in dry and lofty places are more liable to destruction than those who dwell by rivers or on the seashore. And from this calamity the Nile, who is our never-failing saviour, delivers and preserves us. When, on the other hand, the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water, the survivors in your country are herdsmen and shepherds who dwell on the mountains, but those who, like you, live in cities are carried by the rivers into the sea. Whereas in this land, neither then nor at any other time, does the water come down from above on the fields, having always a tendency to come up from below; for which reason the traditions preserved here are the most ancient. The fact is, that wherever the extremity of winter frost or of summer does not prevent, mankind exist, sometimes in greater, sometimes in lesser numbers. And whatever happened either in your country or in ours, or in any other region of which we are informed-if there were any actions noble or great or in any other way remarkable, they have all been written down by us of old, and are preserved in our temples. Whereas just when you and other nations are beginning to be provided with letters and the other requisites of civilized life, after the usual interval, the stream from heaven, like a pestilence, comes pouring down, and leaves only those of you who are destitute of letters and education; and so you have to begin all over again like children, and know nothing of what happened in ancient times, either among us or among yourselves. As for those genealogies of yours which you just now recounted to us, Solon, they are no better than the tales of children. In the first place you remember a single deluge only, but there were many previous ones; in the next place, you do not know that there formerly dwelt in your land the fairest and noblest race of men which ever lived, and that you and your whole city are descended from a small seed or remnant of them which survived. And this was unknown to you, because, for many generations, the survivors of that destruction died, leaving no written word. For there was a time, Solon, before the great deluge of all, when the city which now is Athens was first in war and in every way the best governed of all cities, is said to have performed the noblest deeds and to have had the fairest constitution of any of which tradition tells, under the face of heaven. " -- Sonchis of Sais, priest, ~594 B.C.

Irrelevant.

You have absolutely no evidence of that so it's no surprisde you believe it. Kites have been found on prehistoric cave art.

I believe that there is no evidence that the ancient Egyptians knew about kites. If you can falsify that belief, by all means, I'm listening.

"The absense of evidence is not evidence of absense." -- Kenneth A. Kitchen, egyptologist, 1995

Nor is the absence of all evidence that a given technology existed grounds to assume it actually did. If an argument is so open-ended that it could be applied to anything without changing it the slightest bit, it isn't much of an argument.

Obviously not.

Well, at least something I said was clear enough to be understood.

[Total Science]

Aquatus,

Have you ever tried to sculpt/carve and polish diorite?

It requires an electric power tool.

[aquatus1]

Aquatus,

Have you ever tried to sculpt/carve and polish diorite?

No. And neither have you. I have, however, taken the time to read about the subject from masons and stoneworkers, so I do understand the theory behind it.

What have you done to prove yourself wrong?

It requires an electric power tool.

That's going to come as a surprise to several dozen civilizations that managed to sculpt diorite without any electric power tools.

And there is still no evidence that the ancient Egyptians used electro-plating, let alone had an entire 20th century electrical industry, with the supporting technologies.

Edited June 27, 2009 by aquatus1

[Total Science]

That's going to come as a surprise to several dozen civilizations that managed to sculpt diorite without any electric power tools.

Evidence?

And there is still no evidence that the ancient Egyptians used electro-plating, let alone had an entire 20th century electrical industry, with the supporting technologies.

I disagree. What you call "no evidence" I call "overwhelming evidence."

[questionmark]

So, even assuming that the Baghdad batteries were actually batteries (which I simply do not believe), but even assuming they were batteries, that does not mean that the same technology existed in ancient Egypt, and it does not mean that even if they were indeed batteries, and if they were used for electro-plating, that the Egyptians would know how to do it either.

Here we have to agree, as objects with an unexplainable plating have only been found in Anatolia and Cyprus. It seems that this technique was discovered and after a short time, for whatever reason forgotten. The later plating (such as used by the Romans) was fire plating. From that time objects can also be found in Egypt(then again, in later times it was a Roman province...so why are we surprised?)

As for the rest, if the ancient Egyptians would have had electric light we would have found rests, old bulbs, broken installations, generators discarded for being beyond repair, just as we have found all other technological, ritual and magical implements that have been discarded in some trash dump.

Unless of course, the Nibblers came and took it with them on a flying saucer (or whatever else is used in fantasy land) we have to conclude that no such objects existed in Ancient Egypt... and not for a long time after the rest of the world had it in modern Egypt.

Ah, and before somebody seezz that we don't have a clue about Egyptian technology... we have Heron's steam, engine (also known as Heron's ball) and his fire pump (used until the last century with little modifications), we have Ktsebios' pneumatic shock absorber and I could go on for an hour. There was more than we suppose, but not until the Hellenistic period.

[aquatus1]

Evidence?

You want me to post examples of other civilizations that sculpted diorite? Okay, but it'll have to wait till tomorrow (Saturday night, you know...).

I disagree. What you call "no evidence" I call "overwhelming evidence."

You have pretty low standards. Five clay jars is overwhelming evidence of an electrical industry?

[Total Science]

You have pretty low standards.

At least they are higher than the creationist occultists who believe in gravitation, gravitons, velocity redshift, the Big Bang, black holes, neutron stars, and invisble pink unicorns.

Five clay jars is overwhelming evidence of an electrical industry?

Obviously not. that is a straw man fallacy.

[willowdreams]

Aquatus,

Have you ever tried to sculpt/carve and polish diorite?

It requires an electric power tool.

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden_geolo...bbing_saws.html

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden_geolo...ase_making.html

just two links i found without any problems.

i think we forget something about ancient egyptians (and other ancients).. see we people of today.. we think speed speed speed..

for them? It was just time and patience and skills set down from generation to generation.

[questionmark]

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden_geolo...bbing_saws.html

http://www.geocities.com/unforbidden_geolo...ase_making.html

just two links i found without any problems.

i think we forget something about ancient egyptians (and other ancients).. see we people of today.. we think speed speed speed..

for them? It was just time and patience and skills set down from generation to generation.

and: steady drop (of water) breaks the stone...

[tipsy_munchkin]

Excuse me, but that "evidence" was made up on the fly.

Having read your other posts i can only conclude you only gave that site a cursory glance and read the statements for the idea of ancient electricity and did not continue to where these ideas are debunked. I assume this as many of your points in fact are the same as the ones presented there. It is NOT supporting the idea that they had electric but covers in detail the reasons why that is improbable.

I think the confusion arose as the front page first describes the theories they are seeking to debunk. One page 'soot and lamps' i get language errors but there is still plenty of balanced discussion on the various things usually presented as 'evidence' and the holes in these ideas.

Edited June 28, 2009 by tipsy_munchkin

[lightly]

I do believe the ancient Egyptians utilized electricity... they were very intelligent people.

i agree, ancients were aware of and utilized electricity... and probably,, electromagnetic forces.. The 60 Hz. /120 amp system used in the U.S. .. is a very tiny slice of the EM spectrum.. You have probably seen egyptian statues holding what was assumed to be scrolls in their hands? As it turns out, what looked like scrolls were actually metallic, sometimes hollow,rods... usually one copper and the other zinc.. which when held ,one in each hand, would induce a gentle electric current to flow thru the body/conductor. Sets of these rods have been found in Royal tombs.. but were most probably used by 'lower' classes as well. For what purpose? Who knows... But it is an interesting fact that electrical experimenters in the late 1800's used to bury copper and zinc plates in the earth at varying distances and induce electrical currents to flow between them... so in the case of the egyptians.. the induction of electricity in a conductor may be something very old under the sun. In an earlier post ..i was musing about the possibility of piezoelectrical energy being squeezed out of the Quartz rich red granite inside the 'kings' chamber of the great pyramid by the immense weight of the limestone blocks piled on top. My idea was shot down by someone who explained to me that piezoelectricity would not be produced because the quarts was bound up within non conductive rock... so that it would be the same as a warehouse full of batteries which weren't connected to anything... and that piezoelectricity works by compression and release , which would not be taking place in a static object.. like a pyramid. Well.. that got me thinking... Some of the quartz ,under immense pressure,is exposed at the smooth surface of the red granite walls lining the 'kings' chamber..and is thereby UNbound.. and,also it may be that the granite is sufficiently rich in quartz to cause a continuous connection throughout the blocks. But now the problem of compression and release... well.. how about gravity? .. to be specific, lunar gravity.. the same force that pulls and bulges and then releases the earth's oceans ,causing tides, in clockwork precision???? Wouldn't the land/pyramid feel the same pull and release? yes. Would it generate piezoelectric / electromagnetic forces??? i don't Know.. but i think maybe it would. just thinking.... and wondering... ,lightlyy

[lightly]

Aquatus,

Have you ever tried to sculpt/carve and polish diorite?

It requires an electric power tool.

diorite.. isn't that the same stone ..in the form of hammers.. on display in the Cairo museum and claimed to be ,along with copper chisels, the technology by which the blocks for the pyramids,limestone and granite! ..including the coffer in the misnamed 'kings' chamber, were crafted? There was something completely out of our ordinary and unexplainable going on in ancient times with regard to stone working.. Look at those oddly interlocked, marshmellowy ,looking walls of Sacsayhuaman in, is it Peru? or Bolivia? , anyway... LOOK at them.. it appears to me that their physical makeup would have had to have been fundamentally altered to be crafted into the shapes and configurations that we see them . It just seems as if they must have been, or made to be, less dense at the time of construction ... softened! .. . if you will....? And possibly/probably made lighter by the same alteration... . The ability to make rock softer and lighter would go a long way in explaining Megalithic construction in general... wouldn't it? ya ya... i hear it.. IMPOSSIBLE! ok.. ;o) , lightlyy

[Drev]

Bit old, but it contains some of this stuff:

part1:

part2:

part3:

Srry if it's been posted before, prolly somewhere in a 2012 thread.

[marsapien]

The Mayans had a computing system that stored all there lore, stories and history as well as calculated Mathmatical equations.

It was called a Quipa.

[aquatus1]

Actually, that was the Inca, and it was pretty much just a tallying system for numbers, from what little we have been able to decipher.