Will America ever become fully secular?

[Darklight]

Exactly. While Athiesm has it's place.. it, like any religion, shouldn't be forced.

Salaam (Peace)

I agree completely!

There are people who attempt ot force people into becoming Muslim even though it is specifically forbidden by the words of Quran (2:256)., and for the Spiritually Awake/Conscious Muslim, it clearly violates the Spirit of Islam.

There are SOME Atheists and Secularists that sound as if they believe the same way as the Radical Extremists when it comes to Forcing beliefs and lifestyle.

I have also noticed that when these types of Atheists and Secularists read the Quran, they come back with the same flat, shallow, juvenile-minded interpretation as Al Qa'eda, Hamas, and the Taliban..

If Atheists/Secularists Radicals became empowered by the Government in the same way that the Radical Muslims were/are in "Muslim Countries", (like the Afghan Government prior to 9/11) they would unleash the same degree of violence - at least as much IMO. Fortunately, as with the Muslims, such Radicals represent the extreme minority, and I believe that if more people would identify Human Nature as the source of such tyranny (rather than the tools used), then it would be all but eliminated.

This re-occuring problem of "Force" keeps happening because, IMO, the desire/motovation to force people to adopt your way is a Human flaw, but it is so often attributed to that through which this flaw is manifested. When a non-Religious person or group attempts to force someone into embracing their ideas and/or lifestyle it is usally NOT called "force", "compulsion" or "coercion". Instead "Security", "Freedom", and "Equality" are the usual sugar coatings.

Forcing people to conform is becoming more and more acceptable, because the methods have become more subtle, and strategically paced. At one time, in this Nation, police officers were commonly referred to as "Keeper of the Peace", "Peace Keeper", and "Peace Officer", but now you rarely hear that; what has become common now is "Law Enforcement". Perhaps the same thing will happen with the "U. N. Peacekeepers", slowly evolving into U. N. Law Enforcement.

[Marby]

I put "don't care", not because I live in England. I am an American citizen, after all.

The reason I don't care is because even though I am an atheist and feel that a secular society is the ideal (so long as it's not a Communist secular society), I could care less what people choose to believe, so long as it those beliefs are not forced on me in any way.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Marby

[Lt_Ripley]

I put "don't care", not because I live in England. I am an American citizen, after all.

The reason I don't care is because even though I am an atheist and feel that a secular society is the ideal (so long as it's not a Communist secular society), I could care less what people choose to believe, so long as it those beliefs are not forced on me in any way.

agreed !

[Marby]

agreed !

If people actually left one another alone, religions, or lack of religion, would be more respected by those that don't agree. Alas.

[+susieice]

If people actually left one another alone, religions, or lack of religion, would be more respected by those that don't agree. Alas.

Actually, the separation of church and state and religious freedom was written into the US Constitution. Our forefathers did not want anyone persecuting other people for their religious beliefs and no church should make the law. Obviously, this is ignored by hard-core christianity. I don't care what religion you practice as long as you don't try to force me. In time, maybe this will change.

Edited July 5, 2009 by susieice

[Juicebox]

Thats absolutely true...but when you look at how advanced the bible was for its time, it seems nothing short of incredible..It's got alot of not so factual information,

but there is one line in the bible that has always held a spot in my mind, atheist, christian or agnostic...

"All Things Are Possible With God"..you have no clue to the power and capabilities if he "does existence".

Like I just said, It's full of misinformation, but God wasnt going to overload the fragile minds of that time with the whole "I know it looks like the Earths flat, but its not because __________"

or "I know it looks like we're the center of the universe, and it does look like the sun revolves around us, but it's actually the opposite because ___________"

..."Because God Said So"

you're better safe then sorry.

P.S this was in reply to LT's response to my post.

Edited July 5, 2009 by Juicebox

[Marby]

Actually, the separation of church and state and religious freedom was written into the US Constitution. Our forefathers did not want anyone persecuting other people for their religious beliefs and no church should make the law. Obviously, this is ignored by hard-core christianity. I don't care what religion you practice as long as you don't try to force me. In time, maybe this will change.

You're absolutely right. It would be nice if people actually paid attention to the Constitution.

[Darklight]

Actually, the separation of church and state and religious freedom was written into the US Constitution. Our forefathers did not want anyone persecuting other people for their religious beliefs and no church should make the law. Obviously, this is ignored by hard-core christianity. I don't care what religion you practice as long as you don't try to force me. In time, maybe this will change.

Salaam (Peace)

I've lived in America all my life, 40 years in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, and not once has anybody ever tried to "force" me to embrace or adhere to a particular Religion. People have shared their beliefs with me, and I them, and a good number of those, were people who didn't believe in Religion. I agree that beliefs should not be forced, including non-Religious beliefs, but it isn't a problem I've ever had to face. Freedom of expression is also a right we have in this Nation, and I hope that isn't taken away either.

[Michelle]

Salaam (Peace)

I've lived in America all my life, 40 years in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, and not once has anybody ever tried to "force" me to embrace or adhere to a particular Religion. People have shared their beliefs with me, and I them, and a good number of those, were people who didn't believe in Religion. I agree that beliefs should not be forced, including non-Religious beliefs, but it isn't a problem I've ever had to face. Freedom of expression is also a right we have in this Nation, and I hope that isn't taken away either.

It's good to see that others have had the same experience as I've had living in the south. I truly think that people that think religion is constantly being pushed on them are actually looking for a reason to hate it. They find this same 'conspiracy' everywhere they look. They are the ones that would find the hate is in themselves if they would only look inside.

The old stereotype tripe gets rather old.

[EmpressStarXVII]

Actually, the separation of church and state and religious freedom was written into the US Constitution. Our forefathers did not want anyone persecuting other people for their religious beliefs and no church should make the law. Obviously, this is ignored by hard-core christianity. I don't care what religion you practice as long as you don't try to force me. In time, maybe this will change.

Separation of church and state is not written into the Constitution. What it does have is the establishment and free exercise clause. The State can not prefer one religion over the other or prohibit the free exercise of. That particular phrase appeared in a letter written by Thomas Jefferson. I'm not saying it isn't a valid law or ideal; just not written into the Constitution. Personally I find the first amendment, in regards to religion, to prohibit the chance of there ever being a Theocracy, discrimination/expectation of religious identification in all three branches, or an official state recognized religious body like the Church of England. That's just my take on it though.

It's good to see that others have had the same experience as I've had living in the south. I truly think that people that think religion is constantly being pushed on them are actually looking for a reason to hate it. They find this same 'conspiracy' everywhere they look. They are the ones that would find the hate is in themselves if they would only look inside.

The old stereotype tripe gets rather old.

I've never experienced it either and I live in one of the least diverse states in America. Of course I can't really judge the condition of the US just by my experience, but I think I feel confident enough to say that if you're a religious minority West Virginia is generally a good place to be. I practiced freely and openly here as a Pagan, even in the work force for four years until I became a Muslim. Never once have I experienced pressure from other religious persons, just curiosity if anything. I think because it is so rare to find someone that isn't a White Christian do we find fascination rather than horror at the diversity of beliefs or lack of.

Edited July 5, 2009 by EmpressStarXVII

[ambelamba]

Salaam (Peace)

I've lived in America all my life, 40 years in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, and not once has anybody ever tried to "force" me to embrace or adhere to a particular Religion. People have shared their beliefs with me, and I them, and a good number of those, were people who didn't believe in Religion. I agree that beliefs should not be forced, including non-Religious beliefs, but it isn't a problem I've ever had to face. Freedom of expression is also a right we have in this Nation, and I hope that isn't taken away either.

I guess you are a lucky one. Actually, outside of Korean American community, no one forced their religion on me, except for some door-to-door evangelicals. And that was just once. Oh, and there were JWs, too.

[Darklight]

I guess you are a lucky one. Actually, outside of Korean American community, no one forced their religion on me, except for some door-to-door evangelicals. And that was just once. Oh, and there were JWs, too.

Salaam (Peace)

Over the years I've had some people come to my door ASKING me if they could talk to me about something, no demands just a simple request. It isn't just Religious people who have come to my door. I've had representative of political parties wanting to talk about a candidate, and some wanting about laws being passed in the area. It's only happened a hand full of times, not something that happens on a regular basis.

Some JWs came to my house once and my Wife invited them in and had a nice visit, and told them to stop by again sometime, and they have, my Wife has sorta developed a friendship with the two ladies from the Kingdom Hall.

One time some Mormons came to my house and asked if they could talk with me. I was there with my son Waqiy and we invited them in. We talked for awhile, exchanged books - we got a couple of "Book of Mormon" and we gave them a couple of Qurans - I think that is really it as far as Religious visitors. I've had several non-Religious visitors that were mainly there for political reasons, but we get the girlscouts like everyone else I guess, and those kids trying to sell magazines so they . It doesn't bother me at all, its extremely rare and none have been pushy, and I'm never rude to them.

[everquesterinman]

America was found as one nation under "God" but they failed to mentioned which one ? does it mater really? America was also found to ourselves escape religious persucution but yet we burned other who belieevd or acted differently. America was founded with the believe that "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL" but yet shortly after we became a nation we enslaved a race of people so we could profitt from free labor. So why not....change is coming ?? God i hope so cause America has been saying one thing and doing another so longit would be nice to see some change for the good.

[+susieice]

I'm sorry if anyone is taking my comment as being anti-christian because I'm not. I also have a belief in God.

The point I was trying to make is that we enjoy religious freedom because the men who wrote and approved our constitution gaurenteed us the right to freely practice our religions without the fears they had when they came here seeking respite from the persecutions in their homelands. The church was not to make the law to protect us from things like the Inquisitions. We only had one witch trial here. That was a real fear back in the 1600's when the first settlers arrived. Everyone has the right to practice their religious beliefs, or lack of them, without fear.

[EmpressStarXVII]

No worries susieice, it doesn't appear anti-Christian at all.

[Lt_Ripley]

Salaam (Peace)

I've lived in America all my life, 40 years in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, and not once has anybody ever tried to "force" me to embrace or adhere to a particular Religion. People have shared their beliefs with me, and I them, and a good number of those, were people who didn't believe in Religion. I agree that beliefs should not be forced, including non-Religious beliefs, but it isn't a problem I've ever had to face. Freedom of expression is also a right we have in this Nation, and I hope that isn't taken away either.

have any of your rights been protested against or kept from you by religion / religious opinion ? that is it's beliefs being forced on you. out of curiosity ... how many mosques in your neighborhood ? audible calls to prayer ??

Edited July 6, 2009 by Lt_Ripley

[EmpressStarXVII]

I guess you are a lucky one. Actually, outside of Korean American community, no one forced their religion on me, except for some door-to-door evangelicals. And that was just once. Oh, and there were JWs, too.

Just out of curiosity, what did you experience from the Korean American community?

[Lt_Ripley]

Thats absolutely true...but when you look at how advanced the bible was for its time, it seems nothing short of incredible..It's got alot of not so factual information,

but there is one line in the bible that has always held a spot in my mind, atheist, christian or agnostic...

"All Things Are Possible With God"..you have no clue to the power and capabilities if he "does existence".

Like I just said, It's full of misinformation, but God wasnt going to overload the fragile minds of that time with the whole "I know it looks like the Earths flat, but its not because __________"

or "I know it looks like we're the center of the universe, and it does look like the sun revolves around us, but it's actually the opposite because ___________"

..."Because God Said So"

you're better safe then sorry.

P.S this was in reply to LT's response to my post.

and yet there is no proof God exists. ... all things are possible ....... because man is stubborn ? man doesn't give up ?? man is curious ?? man is creative , tenacious , hard headed ?

[Darklight]

have any of your rights been protested against or kept from you by religion / religious opinion ? that is it's beliefs being forced on you. out of curiosity ... how many mosques in your neighborhood ? audible calls to prayer ??

Salaam (Peace)

No one have ever prostested against me, if so I didn't know it. People do express opinion that I do not share, but then there isn't anything wrong with not being me.

There are no Masajid in my neighborhood. My Masjid is about 40 miles away in Tyler, and the Adhan is called but you cannot hear it unless you are at the Masjid. However, there are several Churches in my little town and I can hear the Church bells. Also, there is a High School only a few blocks from here are I can hear the band practicing and playing at football games and even the announcer. They just did a July 4th celebration Friday and it sounded like we were getting bombed. I am always hearing loud music being played in cars - mainly rap - but I wouldn't try and stop any of it, even though I'm not Christian, don't get into sports, nor listen to rap music.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Darklight

[Lt_Ripley]

Salaam (Peace)

No one have ever prostested against me, if so I didn't know it. People do express opinion that I do not share, but then there isn't anything wrong with not being me.

There are no Masajid in my neighborhood. My Masjid is about 40 miles away in Tyler, and the Adhan is called but you cannot hear it unless you are at the Masjid. However, there are several Churches in my little town and I can hear the Church bells. Also, there is a High School only a few blocks from here are I can hear the band practicing and playing at football games and even the announcer. They just did a July 4th celebration Friday and it sounded like we were getting bombed. I am always hearing loud music being played in cars - mainly rap - but I wouldn't try and stop any of it, even though I'm not Christian, don't get into sports, nor listen to rap music.

I asked because here , in Hamtramck michigan , christians put up a stink about a mosque ( originally being there ) then when it was voted they could sound the call to prayer. It made the news , people picketing.

arguments from ' they could have hidden messages in it ' to ' it's too loud and disturbing' ( although it was shown the church across the street bells were at a larger decibel than the call to prayer.) It was horrible. the ignorance.

found a video about it ...

[Darklight]

I asked because here , in Hamtramck michigan , christians put up a stink about a mosque ( originally being there ) then when it was voted they could sound the call to prayer. It made the news , people picketing.

arguments from ' they could have hidden messages in it ' to ' it's too loud and disturbing' ( although it was shown the church across the street bells were at a larger decibel than the call to prayer.) It was horrible. the ignorance.

found a video about it ...

Salaam (Peace)

I remember something about that. I don't think people should be silenced because others find the sounds they make to be annoying, but I would recommend to all people to be considerate. The loud music is a good example IMO. I listen to Metal, very, very loud, but I only crank it up when on a highway or interstate, I do not crank it all the way up when driving through a neighborhood, its just inconsiderate. The Adhan can be called without being extremely loud. The Chruch bells here in town sound nice to me, soothing to hear the bongs late at night counting off the hour or half hour. I think people should just be both considerate and tolerant when it comes to expression. The secret messages is just silly to me, for one thing the Adhan has been the same for over 1400 years and to mix it up with something else wouldn't be tolerated by any community, plus the fact that Arabic is a very well known language, and still growing so there would not be much of a secret to it at all. I believe that eventually it will be required by law that everyone conduct themselves in public as though they are Atheists. The KKK marched in Tyler not too long ago, and although I disagree very strongly with their message, I do not believe they should be outlawed. The most disturbing thing to me really is parades, when they have them here it basically shuts down the whole town for hours, it really kinda goes too far, much, much more than a simple inconvenience, but the majority of the people in this small town want it, therefor I would not try to do anything to stop it, no one gets hurt, but they even shut down a very busy highway for several hours just to have it, but thats the way it is - no biggie!

[momentarylapseofreason]

I don't think Churches or Mosques should make any noise. I think there is too much noise pollution. It is intrusive-but so are Harley Davidsons, cell phones and the racket they make-cars and factories make too much noise

I want to hear the birds, the wind swooshing through the trees, the crickets or the ocean-not man made noises. Well actually I do love the sound of a piano playing in the distance, or a choir singing..tee hee

Edited July 6, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Bluefinger]

is that why christianity keeps sticking it's nose in politics trying to shove it's beliefs down everyone's throat ?

No. Christians live in America and are just as entitled to vote as atheists. When people vote, they vote for laws that they want passed in favor of their beliefs.

[Bluefinger]

Pagan's don't care about oppressing homosexuals so Lt_Ripley wouldn't care.

That is true though. I haven't heard her once oppose the belief of paganism.....not like she opposes Christianity.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Bluefinger

[Lt_Ripley]

No. Christians live in America and are just as entitled to vote as atheists. When people vote, they vote for laws that they want passed in favor of their beliefs.

mmmm sometimes. it doesn't always work that way. a majority just can't have it's way.... try reading the constitution. protection of minorities and equal rights. Eventually , like Prop. 8 will be overturned ... probably before the fed supreme court. why ? one group can not keep the equal rights of another away.