Obama hopes to persuade all Americans

[momentarylapseofreason]

That's very interesting, mlor.

One of these days I would like to see how it pertains to the other parts of the nation and how they percieve gays considering most of those more 'progressive states' have yet to give gays equal rights..even California.

I'm sure I could find equally damning articles about anywhere you wish to mention.

Some states are worse than others. I have been around, it varies from region to region, but it is called the bible belt for a reason.

My love goes out to Austin, Texas ..............best city in the USA....... I love you......stay weird always!!

Edited July 6, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Michelle]

Some states are worse than others. I have been around, it varies from region to region, but it is called the bible belt for a reason.

My love goes out to Austin, Texas ..............best city in the USA....... I love you......stay weird always!!

I've no doubt you've seen all there is to see. You've managed to find the Bible boogy man in Hawaii too...after living there only a few months.

[jaylemurph]

Where did you get this misguided, uneducated opinion? Haven't traveled much have you?

I grew up in North Carolina -- lived there from when I was six weeks old til I was 21 -- and my family's been there since 1703 or thereabouts. I largely agree with him, and you'd be hard-pressed to prove the South is more educated and tolerant than the rest of the country. After all, there weren't pro-Segregation rallies in LA or New York City...

--Jaylemurph

[Lord Umbarger]

I guess I'm really simplistic when it comes to gay rights. I simply don't care if someone is gay or not.

[Michelle]

I grew up in North Carolina -- lived there from when I was six weeks old til I was 21 -- and my family's been there since 1703 or thereabouts. I largely agree with him, and you'd be hard-pressed to prove the South is more educated and tolerant than the rest of the country. After all, there weren't pro-Segregation rallies in LA or New York City...

--Jaylemurph

I have no doubt that there are some places in the South that do have that attitude, but you will find places in Michigan, Washington or Montana that are the same. I've heard, from reliable sources, that Washington has one of the largest KKK memberships in the US. I see very few signs of them in the vast areas of the South that I regularly spend large amounts of time.

My favorite nephew is gay and we've talked about this extensively. He's lived in New York and says even though there is a larger gay community he felt more threatened on a day to day basis than he does here. That's one of the reasons he moved back.

[momentarylapseofreason]

I've no doubt you've seen all there is to see. You've managed to find the Bible boogy man in Hawaii too...after living there only a few months.

Although there is a heavy Christian influence here, people seem to believe in and practice the spirit of Aloha around here. So far I am pleased and happy. I have been here 1 1/2 years-this place seems to have the nicest people I have ever met (also in NZ and Ireland)

The only thing I heard recently is that my daughter's girlfriend was threatened that she should be beaten up, because she exclaimed that she did not believe in god. But luckily this never occurred. (her mother told me this). My daughter just got strange looks, that made her feel like an Alien when she said that she doesn't attend church. But happily they both have Christian friends and they are all very close to each other.

The only only boogy I have experienced here is the Jungle Boogie, remember that song?

Edited July 6, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[Cradle of Fish]

I guess I'm really simplistic when it comes to gay rights. I simply don't care if someone is gay or not.

Voila, tolerance.

[Michelle]

Although there is a heavy Christian influence here, people seem to believe and practice the spirit of Aloha around here. So far I am pleased and happy.

The only thing I heard recently is that my daughter's girlfriend was threatened that she should be beaten up, because she exclaimed that she did not believe in god. But luckily this never occurred. (her mother told me this). My daughter just got strange looks, that made her feel like an Alien when she said that she doesn't attend church. But happily they both have Christian friends and they are all very close to each other.

The only only boogy I have experienced here is the Jungle Boogie, remember that song?

I'm glad the neighbors have stopped descending on you and your children/child asking what church you belonged to making you feel like they were trying to push their religion on you.

Edited July 6, 2009 by Michelle

[Lord Umbarger]

The only thing I heard recently is that my daughter's girlfriend was threatened that she should be beaten up, because she exclaimed that she did not believe in god. But luckily this never occurred. (her mother told me this). My daughter just got strange looks, that made her feel like an Alien when she said that she doesn't attend church.

That's pretty sad. I just can't see how that is supposed to make things better...."you dont' believe in what I believe in so, I guess I'll beat the faith in to you!". It seems to be the predominant way that Islam gets spread and the way that many X-tians seem to think works best too. Don't belive me? Just try telling some classmates that you worship the devil and rather than see the silliness in that, they will almost immediately turn on you. X-tian love?

I'm just glad that I'm Jewish. For us, houses of worship are not fashion shows or places of judgement. They are simply a place for similar minded worshippers to gather for the few things that we do agree on. Not places to alienate one another. I guess that is because no matter where Jews have gone in theworld, we could get that kind of treatment all through the rest of the week from the local X-tians. Go figure.

[momentarylapseofreason]

I'm glad the neighbors have stopped descending on you and your children/child asking what church you belonged to making you feel like they were trying to push their religion on you.

I'm still asked by some. The question does not bother me so much. It's the reaction that may bother me. I have never been invited in Germany to attend Church or asked what church I attend.-it seems over there they often ask or seem interested in your level of education instead-- maybe it's another way of passing judgment?

Edited July 6, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

That's pretty sad. I just can't see how that is supposed to make things better...."you dont' believe in what I believe in so, I guess I'll beat the faith in to you!". It seems to be the predominant way that Islam gets spread and the way that many X-tians seem to think works best too. Don't belive me? Just try telling some classmates that you worship the devil and rather than see the silliness in that, they will almost immediately turn on you. X-tian love?

I'm just glad that I'm Jewish. For us, houses of worship are not fashion shows or places of judgement. They are simply a place for similar minded worshippers to gather for the few things that we do agree on. Not places to alienate one another. I guess that is because no matter where Jews have gone in theworld, we could get that kind of treatment all through the rest of the week from the local X-tians. Go figure.

Yes, it's sad but you know that teens/kids may beat other teens up simply for listening to the wrong music or dressing differently. Bullying is everywhere and it should never be tolerated. But they got this negative attitude from somewhere.

They still are taught directly or indirectly that belief in god makes you a better person

Edited July 6, 2009 by momentarylapseofreason

[momentarylapseofreason]

I'm just glad that I'm Jewish. For us, houses of worship are not fashion shows or places of judgement. They are simply a place for similar minded worshippers to gather for the few things that we do agree on. Not places to alienate one another. I guess that is because no matter where Jews have gone in theworld, we could get that kind of treatment all through the rest of the week from the local X-tians. Go figure.

I've noticed. They also have the greatest comedians ever. Why are Jewish people so intelligent & funny, it almost seems genetic. But tragedy can give birth to comedy I suppose.

[Michelle]

I'm still asked by some. The question does not bother me so much. It's the reaction that may bother me. I have never been invited in Germany to attend Church or asked what church I attend.-it seems over there they often ask or seem interested in your level of education instead-- maybe it's another way of passing judgment?

I seem to remember that you moved away from Germany when you were in about second grade?

But, we are getting way off topic and this isn't the SvS board.

[Lord Umbarger]

They also have the greatest comedians ever. Why are Jewish people so intelligent & funny, it almost seems genetic.

LOL! My NON-Jewish girlfriend says the same thing... even though she's a pretty funny shiksa herself.

But tragedy can give birth to comedy I suppose.

I ahve heard that someone did a study that implied that Jews, having been prevented from owning land in a lot of European nations throughout history, developed a penchant for clerical work out of necessity. If you can't do bookwork, you starve to death. That would leave only the ones that are able to do it well alive to reproduce. By todays standards, being good with facts and figures equates intelligence. In teh dark ages, it equated being able to feed yourself.

I don't know for sure though. Eugenics has been a rather touchy subject among and about Jews since the early 1940's, and for understandable reasons too. The upside is that maybe we humans have prevented some other nutjob to come along and try to create a master race. The down side of that skittishness is that maybe we are sort of blinding our selves to some truths that could improve education for all of us. It's what I've heard refered to as a "Sticky Wicket" situation.

[ninjadude]

Roger Williams never explicitly said anything about the separation of church and state although it is implicit in his writings.

Do I really have to dig out my Roger Williams stuff?

Where did you get this misguided, uneducated opinion? Haven't traveled much have you?

everywhere I've lived in the US except for the South.

[ninjadude]

I guess I'm really simplistic when it comes to gay rights. I simply don't care if someone is gay or not.

Please convince your friends and neighbors.

[momentarylapseofreason]

I seem to remember that you moved away from Germany when you were in about second grade?

But, we are getting way off topic and this isn't the SvS board.

I moved back in 92 and remained there until early 2008.

[Kimi81]

This is the worst thing in American History...I already blame Kennedy and MLK for turning people black, and those damned lefties for turning men into women when they allowed females drive and vote!

What's next? They going to force us to accept those dirty Atheists?

You know what this means right? It opens the door for people to be allowed to have sex with animals...

LMAO.....Sarcasm at it's finest

[ninjadude]

Roger Williams never explicitly said anything about the separation of church and state although it is implicit in his writings.

Yes, yes he did. Methinks you are too quick to dismiss. Maybe he didn't say the words "separation of church and state" but the meaning was crystal clear. And Rhode Island was not just concerned about federal power, in ratifying the constitution, they also had a strong problem with religious freedom.

The Forgotten Founder

Long Before Madison And Jefferson Gave Us Church-State Separation, Roger Williams Fought For ‘Soul Liberty’

by Rob Boston

In 1635, Roger Williams was appointed to pastoral duties at the local church in Salem, Mass. Williams, a Puritan preacher who had fled religious persecution in England, was already unpopular in Boston for rebuking civil authorities who seized lands owned by Native Americans, but he promptly waded into another controversy.

Massachusetts’ General Court, the governing authority at the time, required all males over the age of 16 to swear an oath of allegiance to the king of England, ending with “so help me, God.”

Most people didn’t see a problem with that. Williams did. To him, the state’s use of God’s name in a civil oath was far from innocuous. What about the atheists, he argued? Would they be forced to take the oath as well?

“A magistrate ought not to tender an oath to an unregenerate man,” insisted Williams. Doing so, he contended, would force the non-believer “to take the name of God in vain.”

Williams’ stand irked civil authorities. That was bad enough, but he didn’t stop there. He announced that civil officials should have no authority in religious matters. Williams asserted that government officials should stick to enforcing the “second tablet” of the Ten Commandments, which deals mainly with non-religious offenses such as murder, lying and stealing, and leave enforcement of the “first tablet,” which lists religious decrees, to the clergy.

Such views were more than just unusual in mid-17th century America – they were heretical. On July 8, 1635, Williams was summoned before the General Court, warned that his views were “erroneous and very dangerous” and basically told to shut up.

Williams did the opposite. In a series of letters to church officials in Boston, he protested his treatment at the hands of the General Court and continued to spread his “erroneous” opinions, daring to assert that his views on religion should be of no importance to the state.

link

Edited July 6, 2009 by ninjadude

[Karlis]

~~~ ... (snip) ...

PS - hey Karlis ... going to join the Westboro Church soon ? they could use the likes of you. !! you would get to picket !!

Strange as it may seem, Ripley, but I don't have an agenda to push,

Karlis

[Karlis]

I guess I'm really simplistic when it comes to gay rights. I simply don't care if someone is gay or not.

I would have ended this post with the above, but the UM forum suggestions/rules say that such posts should not be posted.

Lord U, I don't think your statement indicates that you are "simplistic". Quite the opposite; imo that is a practical and valid attitude which (btw) I also hold. I see no reason to evaluate another person's sexual orientation. That said -- there are various agendas by both gays and "religious" with which I disagree; but that's another story.

Regards,

Karlis

[jaylemurph]

I have no doubt that there are some places in the South that do have that attitude, but you will find places in Michigan, Washington or Montana that are the same. I've heard, from reliable sources, that Washington has one of the largest KKK memberships in the US. I see very few signs of them in the vast areas of the South that I regularly spend large amounts of time.

My favorite nephew is gay and we've talked about this extensively. He's lived in New York and says even though there is a larger gay community he felt more threatened on a day to day basis than he does here. That's one of the reasons he moved back.

Well, yes, there may well be pockets in all those place, but the whole point of that statement was that it's far more endemic and wide-spread in the South. As to your relation, well, I'm not sure how useful individual stories are in discussing wide-spread social conditions.

Yes, yes he did. Methinks you are too quick to dismiss. Maybe he didn't say the words "separation of church and state" but the meaning was crystal clear. And Rhode Island was not just concerned about federal power, in ratifying the constitution, they also had a strong problem with religious freedom.

Then you need to re-read that post. In fact I /said/ it was implicit in his writing, but he did not coin the term or ever even use it explicitly. Nor did he in any way originate the idea.

As regards the state of Rhode Island, anti-federalism was a complex stance that involved many things, of which religious freedom was a certainly part. To simplify Rhode Island's stance down to it being just about church and state (or /just/ about any single issue) is to simplify it out of reality, to make it too simple to reflect the truth.

--Jaylemurph

Edited July 6, 2009 by jaylemurph

[Michelle]

I grew up in North Carolina -- lived there from when I was six weeks old til I was 21 -- and my family's been there since 1703 or thereabouts. I largely agree with him, and you'd be hard-pressed to prove the South is more educated and tolerant than the rest of the country. After all, there weren't pro-Segregation rallies in LA or New York City...

--Jaylemurph

Well, yes, there may well be pockets in all those place, but the whole point of that statement was that it's far more endemic and wide-spread in the South. As to your relation, well, I'm not sure how useful individual stories are in discussing wide-spread social conditions.

--Jaylemurph

Why not? You based your opinion of the entire South on your experience in one place.

[Siara]

Paranoia alert.

He's pushing for tolerance, not for everyone to be homosexual. Sheesh.

Reposted. He's pushing for tolerance, not for everyone to be homosexual.

The Conservative homophobes are the ones who want to change people's behavior in the bedroom. Gays simply want equal rights. Why can't conservatives just leave gays alone? If you don't like them, ignore them. The fact that their personal behavior doesn't appeal to you doesn't give you the right to penalize their behavior by denying them options that are available to you. [shudder] What's with you people?

Edited July 6, 2009 by Siara

[jaylemurph]

Why not? You based your opinion of the entire South on your experience in one place.

*pats head

That's right, Michelle, in 21 years I never once left the few acres I grew up on. Never once went to another county, let alone another city or state. So, no, I have no perspective at all other than one small place.

Such literalism must make reading fiction a real b**** for you. Does it make you mad fictional places aren't real?

--Jaylemurph