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vukxfiles

Are debunkers wasting their lives?

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Mattshark
But skeptics also used to say that there are no rocks in the sky, and slowed down the discovery of meteors and comets.

Not really comparable in the slightest.

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Pauly Dangerously
But skeptics also used to say that there are no rocks in the sky, and slowed down the discovery of meteors and comets.

Not all skeptics thought that, but the ones that did simply fueled debate and gave other scientists the motivation to prove otherwise. Their theory as to why "there are no rocks in the sky" was then debunked by other scientists.

Edited by Paul Noise

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KennyB

I think a lot of this 'debunking' is from people who just like to argue. Especially if they are well educated, it gives them a feeling of power to force someone to change their mind. They may secretly believe in the very thing they're debunking. They'll take either side of an arguement just to prove their power with words. It's a form of bullying. KennyB

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Stormcrow

Again, what is the point of this topic? The OP is not willing to have a discussion, the only thing they want to do is bash on people who like to disprove things, and not listen to the other side of the story--because they're obviously wrong and the OP is obviously right. This topic is going to get nowhere, just like the other one on the spirituality/skepticism board.

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vukxfiles
Again, what is the point of this topic? The OP is not willing to have a discussion, the only thing they want to do is bash on people who like to disprove things, and not listen to the other side of the story--because they're obviously wrong and the OP is obviously right. This topic is going to get nowhere, just like the other one on the spirituality/skepticism board.

I'm bashing because only skeptics and debunkers are giving their opinion, and not believers.

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vukxfiles
Again, what is the point of this topic? The OP is not willing to have a discussion, the only thing they want to do is bash on people who like to disprove things, and not listen to the other side of the story--because they're obviously wrong and the OP is obviously right. This topic is going to get nowhere, just like the other one on the spirituality/skepticism board.

I'm bashing because only skeptics and debunkers are giving their opinion, and not believers.

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vukxfiles
I think a lot of this 'debunking' is from people who just like to argue. Especially if they are well educated, it gives them a feeling of power to force someone to change their mind. They may secretly believe in the very thing they're debunking. They'll take either side of an arguement just to prove their power with words. It's a form of bullying. KennyB

That's exactly what I'm thinking. I also think it's bullying, only intelligent bullying ^_^

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Stormcrow
I'm bashing because only skeptics and debunkers are giving their opinion, and not believers.

You realize that making a board specifically to "bash" other members is against forum rules, right? It is also immature. If you want to discuss something, then discuss it, don't try to make people believe what you believe. If that's the way they want to live their lives, then that's their problem.

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vukxfiles

I just want to see what believers think. I didn't make this topic to bash debunkers. I just wonder what their interest is in all of this.

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Stormcrow
I just want to see what believers think. I didn't make this topic to bash debunkers. I just wonder what their interest is in all of this.

Doesn't look like your original post has anything to do with asking believers what they think. "Why not just ignore the subject and go on with your life?" From the look of your first post, that's really what it sounds like this topic was made to do--bash skeptics. Where do believers come in, and what do they really have to say in reply to something that addresses skeptics singularly. "My basic thought here is how debunkers are skeptics, they do not believe in paranormal phenomena. But why do they waste their time trying to disprove these things? In my understanding, if a person doesn't believe in something, why waste his time studying it and trying to disprove it?"

People have already answered your questions, and of course, they were skeptics, because that is who your topic was made to address. You may want to expand your first post, if you have any intention of attracting believers for an actual discussion.

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HerNibs
I'm bashing because only skeptics and debunkers are giving their opinion, and not believers.

So having a discussion wouldn't do any good? You're just going to "bash"?

I agree with EK's last post.

No clear goal to this other than being abusive to skeptics.

Nibs

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vukxfiles

I'm very tired of arguing.

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Stormcrow

So are we.

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HerNibs
I'm very tired of arguing.

What arguing? You asked a question, we replied. You bash (admittedly).

What did you want to hear?

_________________________

New answer -

Because we are evil and are paid by the "Powers" to run around and debunk, harass and generally abuse any believers so our evil scientists can continue hiding the truth.

Nibs

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Stormcrow
New answer -

Because we are evil and are paid by the "Powers" to run around and debunk, harass and generally abuse any believers so our evil scientists can continue hiding the truth.

Nibs

What else are we supposed to do?! Raise families and have jobs and build wicker baskets in our free time? Poppycock!

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Mabon
I posted a similar topic on the Spirituality vs Skepticism board, and made a mistake for thinking that all skeptics are debunkers. My basic thought here is how debunkers are skeptics, they do not believe in paranormal phenomena. But why do they waste their time trying to disprove these things? In my understanding, if a person doesn't believe in something, why waste his time studying it and trying to disprove it? Why not just ignore the subject and go on with your life?

It's good that you came to the understanding that skeptical thought is not the same as or automatically lead to debunking. For me a debunker is a person/s who takes a rigid opposite position and is as close minded as a 'true believer'.

The problem begins when either a believer or a debunker assumes that their opinion/belief is a fact. These two personalities/traits while opposite are similar in their need to be right. Their belief/opinion can not be questioned because their view is so wrapped up in being 'right' that any question about 'X' is a threat not just to the thought/belief, but to the person's identity. Both sets of personalities are set on being 'right' rather than being factual/accurate.

Perhaps this may make more sense using your own case of 'rods' as example. Rods were once touted as being aliens or ultra-dimensional beings but after it was shown that they were bugs or glitches it didn't stop your enjoyment of the images. However, after learning what they are no one should be able to sell you a video/c.d. called "The miracle of rods. How understanding the emissaries of dimension X changed my life." While trivial on the surface, the perpetuation of a false conclusion is big business. $19.99 or whatever the person who sells such a c.d. for doesn't really have that much money invested in the production of the video/c.d. They are making almost pure profit. They are con-artists and are giving the purchaser a false sense of 'knowing' something that almost no one else knows or will believe. Another words they play to humans vanity, greed and desire to be special.

And while the loss of a few dollars and cluttering up the mind with useless information is almost laughable the other darker side of it isn't.

Blind belief without skepticism lead to many dark epics in human history. The whole of that subject is too lengthy to go into, focus instead on just one aspect. The belief that demons can infest a living human. There is no proof that stands up to scientific scrutiny about demons existing or doing such a thing. Yet there have been and currently are countless cases of murders committed under the guise of exorcism. The crimes against the victim (the so called possessed) can be proven in a court of law but not demons. What appears to be demon possession excluding the cases (past or present) where the accuser was lying for their own benefit, are usually mistaken illness (epilepsy or mental as example). These things can be life threatening to the accused without inflicting the torture some persons go through during an exorcism.

Loss of life or loss of property(money) either way if it weren't for skeptics keeping an eye on fraudulent activity and loudly debunking snake oil salespersons for being what they are, then a lot more harm would be committed.

I would suggest learning to differentiate between honest skepticism and belief. Neither of those are ego driven.

Regards,

Mabon.

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Mattshark

Just from some of his responses I feel Vukxfiles just wants some people to agree with him.

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Paranormalcy

I think the OP needs to understand something about "skeptics" and "debunkers" too, and that is, they didn't just pop out of the womb, crying "swaaamp gaaassss" any more than priests popped out wearing white collars and abstaining from things.

If they have the knowledge they do to examine a phenomena and give an alternate explanation, it means that it is quite likely that skeptics at one time were either "believers" or were at least very interested in the subject, before coming to their own conclusions that the strangeness attached to the subject is unwarranted; they approached the subject, studied it, watched shows and read differing opinions on it, from a number of standpoints, probably did a little of their own personal investigation or experimentation (if possible), inventoried their own experiences and world-view, reason and "gut feeling" and decided "You know, this paranormal explanation just doesn't feel or seem right to me, to me, it is much more likely that is is [X]."

Having come to this point, skeptics then post to both get feedback and have their explanations tested by others, and to do their part of "give back" to the paranormal community, which, believer or skeptic, they are undeniably a part of, and to try to help explain alternate "mundane" ideas and explanations to people, both the "OMG!!!111" types and the more level-headed people looking at paranormal subjects from a learning perspective, who will likely consider many sides and approaches.

The advancement and encouragement of skepticism, as noted, is not necessarily debunking, it is encouraging critical thinking and discernment and reason, to separate anything that might have the potential to be something unusual, from commonly misidentified, hoaxed or misunderstood events, so therefore is actually serving the purpose of helping to eliminate ignorance, confusion and "mindless" adherence to an explanation with no particularly compelling base.

Skeptics exist and actively address paranormal topics as a service to others and themselves, to offer alternate and more reasonable explanations for people to consider, and also to learn and debate with others and to continue testing their own ideas and hypothesis to see if and where they fall short or cease to be applicable to a topic, to reconsider their framework and conclusions.

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Stormcrow

I'll ask a question I normally ask in situations like this. Didn't cross my mind until I started reading Paranormalcy's post.... "Skeptics exist and actively address paranormal topics as a service to others and themselves..."

Would you rather hear that there's just a bit of dust in your picture, or that there's an evil entity following you and trying to eat your soul?

I would rather it be dust.

Edited by Ebonykrow

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MirrorImage
I just want to see what believers think. I didn't make this topic to bash debunkers. I just wonder what their interest is in all of this.

Often times when I set out to prove something is true, I end up doing the opposite.

The evidence just doesnt add up. Now, should I deny the facts and go on believing something thats false, or should I shrung, say "Well that didnt work out, maybe the next case wont prove to be a speck of dust" and move on?

I find that man believers often end up debunking a story, and giving valid evidence to disprove the tale. Just because you debunk something doesnt mean you dont believe in the paranormal, it just means that youve proven a particular story to be a load of bull.

If you'd rather belive something thats false despite evidence showing its false, I have a haunted oceanfront mansion in Arizona I'd love to sell.

Saying that debunkers are wasting their lives is just as invalid as saying that believers are wasting theirs.

Edited by MirrorImage

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SkepticalScarecrow

Wait...a discussion on a discussion forum? The madness! As said before, you made your topic about skeptics, it's only natural skeptics would reply and debate with you. I'm sorry that no believers have replied with "You're totally right", but then again if the topic had been "Do believers waste their lives?" I doubt many skeptics would have answered either.

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vukxfiles

I'm asking an admin to please close this topic. I just realised that it is pointless, plus I am tired of arguing. From now on, no more fire-wars for me.

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The Unseen
I posted a similar topic on the Spirituality vs Skepticism board, and made a mistake for thinking that all skeptics are debunkers. My basic thought here is how debunkers are skeptics, they do not believe in paranormal phenomena. But why do they waste their time trying to disprove these things? In my understanding, if a person doesn't believe in something, why waste his time studying it and trying to disprove it? Why not just ignore the subject and go on with your life?

Why you ask,Well I'll give you my opinion.It must be their fear that if what they are trying to disprove turns out to be real their lives could take a dramatic turn and all their beliefs could very well be WRONG.and noone wants to be wrong.and most dont have anything else to do anyway or they are just a bunch of trouble makers and cant help themselves to be buttheads,Just My Opinion.

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SkepticalScarecrow

^I have to disagree with you there. I'd love for the paranormal to exist, it'd be pretty interesting. However many things are just impossible (Werewolves, zombies, vampires, etc) or have zero evidence other than myths, misunderstandings of natural phenomenon, or things based solely on faith alone.

There's nothing wrong with exhausting all possibilities before ruling something unexplained instead of claiming it to be supernatural in origin, for example, right off the bat.

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Stormcrow

Same here. I'd love for these things to be real, and I do believe in spirits/ghosts/the otherworld/and similar, BUT I do look for the most logical explanation in an event before calling it "paranormal". If it can be explained, then it is explainable. If it can't be, then it is paranormal. So far, I have come across very few instances that can be classified as truly paranormal (and sadly that does not include werewolves, vampires, or otherwise).

There is VERY LITTLE I believe based on faith alone, simply because I am not a very religious or spiritual person. What I do believe in, based on "faith", is for me to know. :tu:

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