saucy Posted May 12, 2004 #51 Share Posted May 12, 2004 It's kind of hard to explain because we go to church knowing in our hearts and our minds that God is real and Jesus is real. Call faith what you want, but to us the bible is fact, something that did happen. Jesus did live. Anyone can come in and refute anything I have to say, but what one or two people say doesn't make a difference to our faith, but if we didn't believe it, then we wouldn't worship. To us, religion is just as much fact as history or science is to a historian or scientist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted May 12, 2004 #52 Share Posted May 12, 2004 It's kind of hard to explain because we go to church knowing in our hearts and our minds that God is real and Jesus is real. Call faith what you want, but to us the bible is fact, something that did happen. Jesus did live. Anyone can come in and refute anything I have to say, but what one or two people say doesn't make a difference to our faith, but if we didn't believe it, then we wouldn't worship. To us, religion is just as much fact as history or science is to a historian or scientist. Oh God. See... this is what gets me p***ed off about religion, the religious people going around saying that the Bible is fact and the Jesus story is fact... Ffs, I dont care as much if YOU believe that its true, but acknowledge that its not FACT and that it might NOT be true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucy Posted May 12, 2004 #53 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hey man, I'm still at the point of my religion where i'm still trying to learn stuff. It's very difficult to give up everything you once knew to be true and accept a whole new belief system, so before I do it, I want to learn what I can. It just sounds to me like religion knows what it's talking about. That's my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonBaby Posted May 12, 2004 #54 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Hey man, I'm still at the point of my religion where i'm still trying to learn stuff. It's very difficult to give up everything you once knew to be true and accept a whole new belief system, so before I do it, I want to learn what I can. So are you saying that you're new to the whole christian thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted May 13, 2004 #55 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Hey man, I'm still at the point of my religion where i'm still trying to learn stuff. It's very difficult to give up everything you once knew to be true and accept a whole new belief system, so before I do it, I want to learn what I can. It just sounds to me like religion knows what it's talking about. That's my opinion Thats no excuse to preach falsly that your religion is proven fact. And if its not you comming up with that but the church teaching it to you, leave that church, since it obviousely feels the need to be dishonest ( shocking, a sin) to keep people believing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X~File_Agent Posted May 13, 2004 #56 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Saucy I recommend the book I'm reading now "The Battle for the Beginning: Creation, Evolution and the Bible" by John MacArthur. He has a ton of proof in his book about creation being true. If you don't want to read up on creation, then nobody can truly sit here and ethically debate with us on what's right and what's wrong. Another good book is "The Case for Faith." I'm not really sure the name of the author. Unless you've become a Christian yourself and I'm sure Trublvr can vouch for this, you don't understand what it's like. Maybe you should read the book "A Farewell to GOD", by a known Christian leader of the likes of Billy Graham, and how he found the other side of the coin. Add that to your collection, along with some Science Journals, etc..... There are people that go from this side to that side, and from that side to this side. I just had a co-worker who was a preacher's son defend the bible to the death. After 34 years, he said he found the "Truth", the Christian GOD cannot be true. Also I myself defended the Bible, until about 2 years ago. Once I looked at the bible from a different point of view, things changed. A lot of things started to get blurry and make no sense. You see saucy, most of us have BEEN there, that's why we are on the other side now. Saucy Look at all the species on the planet. Each one of them has a special characteristic that makes them unique, including their DNA. Science has never and will never observe the evolution of one species into another. It is scientifically impossible. It is genetically impossible. Every living creature has a complex genetic code, stored in its DNA that determines its fundamental characterisics. Thanks for playing, please try again. It is found that a single frog contains up to 80% (Give or take a few percentages) of the same DNA that is seen in humans. Don't believe me look it up, I'm tired of doing other peoples chores of looking up information. Also never use the words NEVER, this will get you in trouble. You see, folks in the past said Humans would never fly.... Here we are breaking the sound barrier, like it's a piece of fragile glass...... You accuse us of not being open minded, but yet you use words like NEVER when it comes to science..... I think Jesus was just another guy, who had "different" ideas about how things were supposed to run. But I believe things were blown way out of proportion when it came to miracles, like other folks said. Just a character in a book. I hate to pick on you Saucy, but you have much to learn about faith. The point is, that in order to make your faith stronger you must study all possibilites until you are exhausted. This means, reading everything you can about Evolution and Speciation and Abiogenesis hell a good start is "Stephen Hawking's Universe", but when you do read about these things read it from a scientific point of view. Don't go to a website that says. Creationist.com - Subtitle "What is evolution?", and then they'll give you their biased opinion. When you read a science Journal, they don't say. This is why Creationism is Wrong and Why Evolution is true... They talk about the subject in a scientific manner, without mixing religion. Because when it comes to science, there is absolutely no need to mix God into the equation. Well, I had to throw my 2 cents in, like I always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted May 13, 2004 #57 Share Posted May 13, 2004 The best representation of what atheists believe about christianity : Clicketh The points given are the biggest reasons people find christianity impossible and convert to something else . Im halfway through it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffybunny Posted May 13, 2004 #58 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Xeno, are you feeling okay? Have the 6 horsemen of the apocalypse finally gotten to you? It seems like you are turning to the dark side... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenojjin Posted May 13, 2004 #59 Share Posted May 13, 2004 Im still theistic . It doesn't bother me if small tidbits of the bible make no sense if the bible is translated literally , because I never believed the bible should be taken literally . Only a few key points should be taken and the rest should be read like a peom or metaphor . The old testament especially contains a lot of stories that were added in later .... for all we know noahs flood never happened and was just a parable added in by the jewish priests to teach people what happens when the entire world gives god the finger . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucy Posted May 13, 2004 #60 Share Posted May 13, 2004 BLAH....BLAH....BLAH... By the same definition, you can say the same as science. Seems like everything to do with science is a theory and every theory is different. There are about a hundred different theories on how evolution happened. Which one are you going to believe? Most of science is opinion and theory except for a few modern breakthroughs and it seems like every ten years or so we find out what we thought was true, really isn't when it comes to science. You tell me not to go to biased creationism sites.....but looky at what you tell me to read. You seem to be a wee bit biased yourself. How can I sit down and believe a scientific theory when it repeatedly changes! I've said it before, I'll believe in what I believe and you believe what you want, there's no point in arguing about it and nobody is going to know the real "truth" until the end. I sit here and can admit like a man that me and my theories COULD be wrong, but nobody else is willing to say that they may be wrong, so I'm not going to sit here and argue with a bunch of egotistical people who think they know everything when they really know nothing. At least I'm taking the time to research and figure out what the truth may be and I'm keeping an open mind about everything. GOOD DAY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted May 13, 2004 #61 Share Posted May 13, 2004 There are about a hundred different theories on how evolution happened. Um...not really....in fact, there's only ONE theory of how evolution proceeded. The opinion IS however divided on how life STARTED (you really should get it through your head that evolution, and the actual origins of life are different theories, we're fed up having to repeat ourselves). However, all these theories still go along the same mechanics...whether it's believed life came in on a metior, or was actually formed on this planet, the theory of abiogenesis still stands. How can I sit down and believe a scientific theory when it repeatedly changes! Maybe because we actually bother to try and test what we claim to be the truth, when religion just slaps down some nonsence in a book and says "that's how it happened! Who needs proof!" I sit here and can admit like a man that me and my theories COULD be wrong, but nobody else is willing to say that they may be wrong, so I'm not going to sit here and argue with a bunch of egotistical people who think they know everything when they really know nothing Here's what I'll admit.... 1) Evolution isn't flawless...however, based on the evidence presented, it is by far and away the most likely and probable explanation that we have. I believe evolution to be the truth based on everything we know about the world, about the way life developed today, and about genetic inheritance. 2) Creationism has no evidence, no logic, and no real fact behind it. I don't even acklowledge "creationism" as a theory; it's an assumption. Theories at least require some kind of logic or scientific methodology to back them up. At least I'm taking the time to research and figure out what the truth may be and I'm keeping an open mind about everything. Well...at least that's more than any religious person has been doing for the past ten thousand years But you've got a whole lot of catch up to play on science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucy Posted May 13, 2004 #62 Share Posted May 13, 2004 okay, maybe I didn't explain myself celar enough. I meant that there are different theories of how life started. It seems to me that scientists can't prove their theories against creation and keep changing it. That's why the age of the earth keeps growing, other steps are added to process, physics, genetics, all the laws and rules keep changing. You keep testing what you believe to be the truth and you find out it's wrong and that's why science keeps changing because you yourself cannot prove it to be true. If you're sick of repeating yourselves, then why do you bother replying? you're the biology student Seraphina! Isn't that what you're studying? Then it's your job to explain it to me or else what's the point? I just want to know why science is always regarded as the truth when it can't seem to find a bases. It's always changing. Science was created because people wouldn't except that God exists and they couldn't except that God created everything. Creation has been what was taught for thousands of years and no amount of scientific theory has been able to prove it wrong. Go to answersingenesis.com and read up on what creationists have to say. You just think we go by the book and that's it. No. We have scientists out there testing stuff and doing our own research. Read what the site has to say. It keeps up to date with the latest science news. I bothered to go to the talk-origion site that was for evolutionists, just do me this favor by going to that site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted May 13, 2004 #63 Share Posted May 13, 2004 as soon as you mention answersingenesis.com, your opinions regarding this matter become void. Thankyou, please come again (if you don't know why, please refer to the numerous creation/god/evolution topics, in which we have demonstrated numerous times how answersingenesis.com is nothing more than pseudoscientific creationists tripe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucy Posted May 13, 2004 #64 Share Posted May 13, 2004 answersingenesis.com has some damn good evidence that I believe should be looked at closer. You don't want to mention it as credible because it does offer good evidence against your case and you're not willing to admit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X~File_Agent Posted May 13, 2004 #65 Share Posted May 13, 2004 It's a vicious Cycle, because that's what we've been trying to tell you about the Bible. By the way, all my books are not biased. I told you to do research on a scientific level. Read my post again. For example the book Stephen Hawkings Universe covers every aspect of what is known about our Universe. It isn't a biased read, it is a scientific read. There will be information about how religion had an inmpact on Scientists like Galieo, etc... But it doesn't say ".... and this is why religion is BS"..... I don't think I've ever claimed science has all the answers, however science uses a painstaking process of trying to prove something as a Fact. It uses the universal language of Mathematics, something everyone can understand. Unlike the bible which is open to many interpretations. You (Saucy) on the other hand are making claims that we will NEVER know. This to me says, that you have all the answers and there is no need to look further. The problem is that you can't argue against faith, which is what it takes to believe in God, he says so in the Bible. However to try and prove God's existence by using science, has not been possible YET.... Noticed, I didn't say NEVER, because I too have an openmind. But so far all the evidence, doesn't point to an intelligent creator. Therefore there isn't a reason for me to worship something that in MY mind does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted May 13, 2004 #66 Share Posted May 13, 2004 It seems to me that scientists can't prove their theories against creation and keep changing it Actually, in the case of abiogenesis (which, again, has nothing to do with evolution) it HAS been proven under laboratory conditions. While we might not have proven it's what definately occured, we have proven it's a viable possibility. A far more real possibility, I might add, than an unsubstantiated God. You keep testing what you believe to be the truth and you find out it's wrong and that's why science keeps changing because you yourself cannot prove it to be true. What you see as "being wrong", I see as "discovering the truth". The occassions entire therories are replaced are becoming quite rare...usually they're just added to and improved upon nowadays, because we've reached a level of know-how where we can peice together roughly what occured When science changes an element of a theory, it means we're taking a step closer to knowing what really occured...what creationists ignore evidence, research, or common sense, it means they've turned their back on fiding the truth, and are happy in their little bubble created by mythology. Science was created because people wouldn't except that God exists and they couldn't except that God created everything And god was created because people at the time couldn't explain anything Creation has been what was taught for thousands of years and no amount of scientific theory has been able to prove it wrong That's not really true...the sheer wealth of evidence for evolution and natural means of how life came about DOES disprove creationism; you simply refuse to accept them. You might wonder how the theory of evolution has come so far in providing evidence in the last century or so, when creationism hasn't provided even a scrap of evidence in the space of ten thousand years I bothered to go to the talk-origion site that was for evolutionists, just do me this favor by going to that site. I have been to that site actually...but, as Bathory says, it's "nothing more than pseudoscientific creationists tripe". Every arguement it makes is based on an frightening misunderstanding (probably a deliberate misunderstanding) of scientific theory, and of arguements that have been debunked time and time again. The only guns creationists have to stick to are the same ones they've been firing over, and over, and over, than have long ago been proven to be firing blanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chauncy Posted May 13, 2004 #67 Share Posted May 13, 2004 The evolution topic is one that needs some clearing up. Look at it this way, the fact that evolution happened, is happening and will continue to happen is not theoretical it is fact. The item that is theorized on, and the item that alot of christians exploit, is the mechanisms that allow it to happen. Some Christians (not all) seem to dwell on the fact that the word "Theory" appears before the word "evolution" and therefore is not a fact but a theory. Again the only theory I see are the ones that are directed at the evolutionary mechanisms. The "Theory of Relativity" although the word "Theory" appears in front of it does not take away from its factual basis and the fact we proved much of it as fact the minute we entered into space. All I have to say is if there is a better explaination for the evolution of life, then collect the data and submit it to the scientific community and if it holds water then we can start looking at an alternative to evolution. Untill this happens Evolution is and will remain the law of the land. We must ask ourselves if the Christians are so sure that evolution is a falsehood, well quite simply, why haven't they submitted their theory to the scientific community? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted May 13, 2004 #68 Share Posted May 13, 2004 There are about a hundred different theories on how evolution happened. The opinion IS however divided on how life STARTED (you really should get it through your head that evolution, and the actual origins of life are different theories, we're fed up having to repeat ourselves). However, all these theories still go along the same mechanics...whether it's believed life came in on a metior, or was actually formed on this planet, the theory of abiogenesis still stands. You see, its been proven that abiogenesis is possible, and its also possible that Earthly life came from a meteor. We're just not sure if abiogenesis happened on Earth to create the life, or if it happened off of earth and was braught on a meteor, or if both happened. As for creationists "proof". They have none. I'm tired and tired of debunking each of their arguments and their "proof" because their "proof" is out of context laws and mistransmitted evidence and half truthes which only manage to convince people who are less educated on the subject. Why do creationists feel the need to respond with lies and dishonesty? Maybe because they lack any evidence what so ever to prove their "theory" and once they are debunked they say "You gotta have faith". Oh, and Saucy, which theories have changed repeatedly in your life btw? As far as I know, not much have changed in this century, people have just because more seperated from the answer "God did it" and began getting more in depth on all the scientific theories. Pretty much any creationist who claims to have scientific proof of creationism or proof that evolution did not occure is biased and is behing dishonest or whoever taught him was dishonest. Scientific journals and experiments arent however biased because the objective of science is not to disprove religion but to uncover the truth. Science just provides the truth and most logical/prooved assumptions on what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquatus1 Posted May 13, 2004 #69 Share Posted May 13, 2004 I personally believe that, at most, creationism can be considered a postulate, a statement of belief. In order to be considered a scientific theory, however, it must meet certain guidelines. Saucy, I'm curious as to your knowledge of what makes up a scientific theory. If you could, please explain to me how creationism is a valid theory, keeping in mind the following rules for scientific methodology: 1) The first would be that it needs to explain the currently existing data. 2) The second is that it would have to be able to predict future events based on that data, in order to encompass data discovered in the future. 3) The conclusion would have to be logical enough so that an unbiased third party would naturally arrive at the same results. 4) The theory must be falsifiable. 5) The explanation offered must be a verifiable event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chico del nacho Posted May 13, 2004 #70 Share Posted May 13, 2004 jesus was really called jeff. he wasn't a messiah, he was a masseuse. the reason he became so popular and mysterious was because of people saying things like "i just got back from jeff the masseuse and lord, he works miracles!" as time went on, the story became distorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted May 14, 2004 #71 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Sounds more probable than the Jesus story Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chauncy Posted May 14, 2004 #72 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Jesus was different because he was a decendant from a very special bloodline. An Alien bloodline that stemmed from the Nephilem. The only difference between him and us is the fact he was aware of his heritage. We have been denied that awareness!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stellar Posted May 14, 2004 #73 Share Posted May 14, 2004 Who are the Nephilem? ive heard that name before... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seraphina Posted May 14, 2004 #74 Share Posted May 14, 2004 ....*blinks*.... .... ....*tumbleweed rolls by* .... ....Well...aliens are more likely than God I guess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saucy Posted May 15, 2004 #75 Share Posted May 15, 2004 You guys are funny. *tumbleweed rolls by*. That's something only Seraphina would say. Man I love you guys. I'm glad I can argue with you guys and not some actually smart scientist or a real athiest. Man, that would be trouble, me arguing with people who aren't faking not having a religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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