Jesus

[Seraphina]

As I said before , god cannot be scientifically proven or disproven

Xeno, as I've already stated, we are not required to disprove God

Currently, evolution is holding all the cards. It has all the answers, it has all the evidence, it has all the ammunition. Not a single arguement made in favour of creationism has gone unanswered, while creationists have been utterly unable to provide any strong or long term opposition in answer to the questions posed to it by science.

Evolution is offering evidence and a strong case that is simply getting stronger as time goes on, and creationism ran out of ammunition a long time ago, and was firing blanks to begin with. There is no need for us to disprove God to establish he doesn't exist, because without any supporting evidence he remains a character in a book.

The responsibility is not on us to tell you why God isn't real, anymore than it is to tell you why Gandalf isn't real; the existance of either character shows about as much evidence or logic, and is just as likely given the current evidence (suffice to say...none).

In establishing creationism as the far more likely possibility, we leave God standing on very unsteady legs indeed, given God's holy book gives a different account; we don't need to prove he doesn't exist, because no strong evidence has yet been put forward to even suggest that he does, let alone prove it.

[+joc]

The responsibility is not on us to tell you why God isn't real, anymore than it is to tell you why Gandalf isn't real; the existance of either character shows about as much evidence or logic, and is just as likely given the current evidence (suffice to say...none).

The last think I intend to do here is get into a religious debate with Seraphina the Goddess of Greatness.

I do however have something pertinent to the discussion to say. Thusly:

A question and an answer: Q: Why do you think it is that after 2000 plus years,

many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

A: Because they have experienced the redemption of the cross, pure and simple.

When one throws all else aside and falls on ones knees and sincerely askes God to forgive them and show them the way of the cross, an amazing thing happens...not just to some Seraphina...but to all who seek him out. The amazing thing is that they are changed. It isn't the miracles, it isn't the church, it isn't about how righteous one thinks they are, it is about the miracle of forgiveness. It isn't intellectual, it is just when a person comes to the knowledge that they are lost in a lost world, and seeks out the Master, the Master comes and does a miracle that no one can explain.

[bathory]

as real as what Budhists feel, and Hindus, and Muslims, and practically any other religion out there, its irrelevant

[Seraphina]

When one throws all else aside and falls on ones knees and sincerely askes God to forgive them and show them the way of the cross, an amazing thing happens...not just to some Seraphina...but to all who seek him out.

I think you'll find this proves absolutely nothing; if someone wholeheartedly believes already, then whatever they "feel" is likely them simply believing whatever they want to believe. If a person utterly believes Pinko, the amazing dancing elephant, lives in their closest, the fact they believe they've experienced, seen, or spoken to pinko does not make him more than a figment of their imagination unless they provide some kind of evidence for his existance The evidence part is something God's been keeping us waiting for...and I doubt it's ever going to come either

A question and an answer: Q: Why do you think it is that after 2000 plus years,

many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

Why is it in the past ten thousand years, creationism has been utterly unable to offer a scrap of evidence, when evolution has managed to prove itself to the scientific world in a matter of decades?

Maybe because there isn't any?

The last think I intend to do here is get into a religious debate with Seraphina the Goddess of Greatness.

Good Don't

[Chauncy]

Q: Why do you think it is that after 2000 plus years,

many extremely intelligent and educated people still believe that Jesus is the Son of God?

1) They were brought up that way, home-schooled possibly, and never had access to a library. Or when they did read otherwise they were scorned for doing so.

2) Fell into the gutter as a result of some type of indulgence or tragedy, and religion was the only thing that gave then the motivation to change. Instead of rebuilding their lives on their own accord.

3) Its the proper thing to say. Alot of people just simply say that they believe in God as to avoid any religious assault from believers. Also many business people or leaders, or any figure that has a following of masses or a clientel would wisely profess belief to prevent the loss of said following or clientel.These people make up a large portion of the surveys alot of christians flaunt as validation that "everyone's doing it"

4) It suffices for the moment , most people have more immediate concerns.

5) Their belief in God also comes with a sense of community in which they gain self worth.Constant pats on the back and personal motivation to get them through the week.

6) The belief in God comes with two rewards A) Salvation rewarded for your diefication All the people you don't like will burn in hell.

7) No matter what the believer does wrong they have a gauranteed excuse.. the Devil. And no matter what!..... they are automaticly absolved of said infraction. Its like diplomatic ammunity.

8) The world is way too difficult for them to comprehend so they figure it must be of design. Indeed they percieve their lives to be uncontrolable, this is scary to them, so they throw their lives in the hands of someone more powerful.

9) Once told about hell they couldn't bare to take the chance, so they believe just in case its true. Picturing dear old grandma burning in brimstone hellfire would convince alot of people to believe ......just in case.

10) Someone else can fill in number 10

[Ozmeister]

Because they have experienced the redemption of the cross, pure and simple.

It might come as a great surprise to you but most theologians now don't believe in the Ressurection as a literal fact....some even don't believe in the crucifixion.

Let's just look at the facts, as they present themselves in the 4 Synoptic Gospels....the bare facts. Notwithstanding that the 4 Gospels don't entirely agree with one another, what do we have.

1. Jesus was whipped, paraded through the streets

2. He was nailed to a cross.....it may have even been a tree with a crossbeam attached to it, but in any case he was crucified

3. His feet where placed in such a fashion (crossed over) so that he had some support.

4. He was given a sponge soaked in gall and vinegar to "quench" his thirst.

5. He "passed away" after only 6 hours on the cross. When the Roman guards were going to break his legs (it makes breathing almost impossible because your whole weight pulls down on your chest), they were prevented from doing so. Pilate allowed his body to be removed then to be taken away to the burial chamber

6. He was stabbed in the side by a lance....some blood and serum leaked out for a period of time.....after his "death" and before he was taken down from the cross

7. When he was taken to the burial crypt, "Joseph of Arimathea" and a few others brought with them a large quantity of bitter aloes and myrrh.....in one of the Gospels it says something like 100lbs worth of bitter aloes.

8. 3 days later, he's seen by Mary Magdalene and then the Apostles.

Ok, now for facts......crucifixion was a cruel and inhuman punishment, it was not swift and merciful. Even given the most severe beatings, people who were crucified could last anywhere upto 1-2 weeks, hanging from the crossbeam. The custom of breaking of the legs was to expirdite the death of the crucified person, as hanging by the ends of the arms caused the body's weight to stretch the muscles of the peritoneal cavity, stopping the person from breathing. When informed of Jesus' death, Pontius Pilate expressed great surprise, as he knew the time Jesus was on the cross was certainly nowhere near long enough to have caused death. The reason why the Roman soldier lanced Jesus was to see if he was dead. The fact that the wound has seeped blood and serum was a sure sign that he was not dead. Dead bodies don't seep blood nor serum when you cut them because there's no blood pressure in the skin capillaries or in other blood vessels after death. The heart isn't beating. The blood actually pools where it stops.

Now, the matter of the gall and vinegar. It's a rather funny concoction to be giving someone who's thirsty and dehydrated. Gall (the venom extracted from viper venom glands) and vinegar is a soporific. It was actually used to induce a state of anaesthesia in people who were to undergo surgery.....like amputations. In strong enough concentrations, the mixture could easily induce coma and give the appearence of death. It slows the heart down to almost a stop and all muscular contractions in the arms and legs stop. They go limp. Vinegar was used to dissolve the venom as it was not soluble in water, plus the vinegar "watered" down the taste of the gall.

Now for the bitter aloes and the myrrh. Aloes and myrrh are not used in the embalming process. Never have been. On the contrary, bitter aloes is actually a purgative, used to rid the body of poisons and other such substances. Try taking some bitter aloes mixture next time you're sick. It's better than ipecac but it's foul tasting. Myrrh was also used as a muscle relaxant when ingested and could also help when being burnt. It was usually used to counteract the effects of the aloes once the aloes job was done.

So what do we have here, given the evidence and the facts as they are seen. Certainly not a death, with attendants and relatives going to enbalm the body with the correct herbs and lotions. Given that he lasted only 6 hours, was given gall and vinegar to drink, that his legs were prevented from being broken by his family, still bleeding after being lanced, taken down and then buried in a crypt where family and attendants took in aloes and myrrh, which are in fact used for the medicinal purposes as already outlined......it appears that, in fact, Jesus was not dead after being taken down off the cross. He was, instead, in a deep coma and was brought out of that coma by being fed bitter aloes to purge his body of the gall poison. He was then made to ingest myrrh or linger in it's burnt form in the smoke....to calm him down after being purged. He was probably lucky to have survived that part of the ordeal at all......the purging would've been extremely harsh and would've knocked him about a lot.

So what happened after all that....where did Jesus go?? Two ideas have come up. He either went with his wife and kids and some of his relatives to the Camargue region in France, where there was a Jewish conclave (and had been for hundreds of years). Or he could've gone east to the Kashmir region with Thomas. The evidence for him having gone with Thomas is more compelling, although nothing would've prevented him going to France at least for awhile. The jury is still out here....and for now the latter movements of Jesus are speculation.

Basically what all this means is that the cornerstone of the Christian faith is nothing more than a myth.....based on a distorted account of the actual truth of the matter. The death and ressurection, as preached, is nothing more than a fabrication used to gain converts to Christianity from other faiths....many of whose own holy prophets and "Sons of God" underwent unusually similar ordeals as was supposed to have been suffered by Jesus. Coincidence??......hardly. The Jews had very good knowledge of the "passion" ordeals of other faiths' leaders for the best part of 600 or more years. They were heavily influenced by Mesopotamian, Greek, Assyrian and other cultures beliefs and philosophies. In order to flourish in these places, Christianity basically subsumed the beliefs of these peoples by absorbing those beliefs into itself. In fact, it had nothng to do with true "Christianity"...... a form of Nazorean Judaism.......but more to do with a spun fantasy of Paul and his little entourage, including Peter (who was nothing more than an illiterate "country bumpkin"....a hired "righthand man").

Edited May 16, 2004 by Ozmeister

[saucy]

Did you even see The Passion? Jesus' beating was even worse than portrayed in the film. I would not even survive that, it was more unusually brutal than what most Romans would experience. Pontus Pilate, unwilling to put Jesus through death because he couldn't find any guilt in him, ordered a harsh beating of the man, first using canes, then those whips (can't think of the name, probably cat tails or something) that ripped into his flesh with each lash, opening him him up to the point where his bones were exposed. The ground was covered in his blood. After that he was taken before the crowd who still seeked death and even released a murderer so they can see Jesus get crucified. Imagine the worst Roman beating then a crucifixion. Most people don't endure both, but after the beating, they placed a crown of thorns on his head, which no doubt entered into his skull and brain, then they whipped him, threw rocks at him some more as he drug a cross through town with crowds of people, throwing more rocks. They then crucified him, pulling his shoulder out of joint, spilling more blood. He hung on the cross for six hours, surely sufficating as, not only you say, but many doctors say. If they added poison to all that beating, which I don't doubt and stuck a spear in his side, I truly don't see anyone surviving all that. You really have to see the movie to get a good understanding of the beating. Seconds after he commended his spirit to God, an earthquake ripped through the temple, destroying it and a storm was brewing. They stuck the spear in him to make sure he was dead so they can go inside, honoring a prophecy that said Jesus wouldn't break any bones. They took his body down, a rich man bought the body and placed him in the tomb for the rich (one again fulfilling a prophecy that Jesus would be buried with the rich) and a two ton rock would be placed in front of the entrance. Also, some fifteen Roman quards were placed in front of the tomb because Jesus has caused so much controversy, the Romans didn't want anybody taking the body. After three days, an angel came down from heaven, rolled the two ton rock away from the tomb and asked the men to look into the tomb to see that the body was not there. Nobody dared to look because they knew Jesus was not there. They did, though see him appear before them, his body in perfect shape except for the holes in his hands. No beating scars or marks, no dried blood on is body, no scars on his head from the thorns, nothing. He was almost unrecognizable to the disciples as he appeared before them all, proving once and for all to them that he was the son of God and the true Messiah. After the crucifixion, these disciples went into hiding. They even wrote it about themselves that they were scared and lonely until they indeed saw Jesus had come back. Would such an appearance lead them to suddenly become vocal about the Lord? Even Peter was shy and afraid of the consequences, so much so he denied the Lord three times, but after seeing Jesus appear to him, he no longer kept quiet. None of them did. You can call this whole thing a myth or a legend. You can say God doesn't exist and write post after post of scientific evidence that proves in your eyes that God doesn't and never have existed, but man I have seen and experienced some things because I do believe. He's in the heart of every believer. Like it was said before, we all experience the redemption of the cross. You wouldn't know what it was or felt like so you can't debunk it. Keep your scientific theories and so-called knowledge. If I'm ignorant to believe such a tale, then I'm ignorant no doubt about it. I don't know enough about science to know which theory I should believe and which I shouldn't. Basically, what you guys keep saying to me is that if it supports creation in any way, I shouldn't believe it because it's a large piece of crap. Any arguement whatsoever against science is just total and utter bogus, biased and anyone to believe it is ignorant. That's not right. Not at all. I'm done with all of you on these types of discussions, because I'm the one who gets dumped on by everyone. Peace, love and crabs to you all

[Fenris]

Let's just look at the facts, as they present themselves in the 4 Synoptic Gospels....the bare facts.

The only facts that entails is that is what was written. Shelly wrote about Frankenstein, that is a fact, but it doesn't mean Frankenstein existed!

Some folks 'believe' them to be actual factual accounts, some folks regard them as little more than fiction.... both points of view are valid ones.

[Stellar]

they placed a crown of thorns on his head, which no doubt entered into his skull and brain

No doubt

I'm not even gonna comment on the rest of the post!

[Xenojjin]

few things are more annoying then when someone tries to argue against me with evidence of evolution .

For the trillionth time I am a christian who believes in both god and evolution . ( the basic idea being god guided the evolutionary process ) .

providing me with evidence of evolution just further convinces me my religious beliefs are correct .

And Although creationism has provided little to no physical evidence , enough logical and philosophical reasons have been brought up by intelligent and level headed human beings to show he is much more likely to exist then a charachter in a book . Unfortunatly I dont have as much time as I used to so I'll let everyone else argue on this one .

[Chauncy]

Xenojjin.......what "logical" and "philisophical" reasons have been brought up to show God's existence?

Maybe start with the "logical" reasons.....lol

[beowulf]

Just to add a little spice here, there is no contemporary secular evidence that Jesus ever lived. We only have the New Testament (the earliest gospel of which was written several generations after the supposed events) to give us any information on him (Please all you Christians, don't trot out Jospehus, Tacitus, ect as proof...they either have been proven christian hoaxes or do no more than prove that there were Christians in the 2nd Century CE) Isn't it strange that there was a plethoria of historians, Essayists, etc writing during the period and in the area he supposedly lived, yet they never mention him or his miracles, altho they mention other "holy men" and their supposed miracles. Strange indeed, that is until Saul of Tarus melded Mithraism and Judaism to make Christianity as we know it!

[Stellar]

And Although creationism has provided little to no physical evidence , enough logical and philosophical reasons have been brought up by intelligent and level headed human beings to show he is much more likely to exist then a charachter in a book . Unfortunatly I dont have as much time as I used to so I'll let everyone else argue on this one .

Yes but theres a difference between the one in the Bible and just one.

[beowulf]

A lengthy little tidbit that makes you think, at the very least, it shows how the Bible can be manipulated for whatever reason you want!

DOES ISAIAH WARN AGAINST CHRISTIANITY?

We've all seen missionaries try to support their religion by quoting the Tannach. This page turns the tables and quotes the Tannach to debunk Christianity by comparing passages from the prophet Isaiah with passages in the so called New Testament.

Personally, I don't think the Tannach says anything, good or bad, about Jesus, but it is interesting to note how differently the quotes can be interpreted.

I have not checked all the quotes for accuracy. so if you find errors, please let me know.

My thanks to Alex, who sent me this material.

Isaiah warns of coming chaos:

*

24:1 Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof. 24:2 And it shall be, as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his master; as with the maid, so with her mistress; ... 24:3 The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word. 24:4 The earth mourneth [and] fadeth away, the world languisheth [and] fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.

Then he says WHY this will happen:

*

24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant. 24:6 Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, ...

The so called New Testament advocates all three of these things -- i.e. that people transgress the laws, change the ordinance, and break the everlasting covenants.

1. Transgressing the Law:

*

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree

*

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

*

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

*

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

*

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

*

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law [be] heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, [there is] no transgression. 16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

2. Changing the Ordinances:

*

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, ...

*

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, ...

*

Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

3. Breaking the Everlasting Covenant -- presumably the Sabbath, the Brit Milah, or the everlasting priesthood.

1.

Sabbath (as specified in 1 Chronicles 16:17, Leviticus 24:8)

*

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath [days]:

2.

Brit melah: (as specified in Genesis 17:13)

*

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3.

Everlasting priesthood. (as specified in Numbers 25:13)

*

Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

In summary, the New Testament recommends what Isaiah says will bring chaos.

One aspect of the coming hard times, says Isaiah in a later chapter, will be a "covenant with death, an agreement with the grave."

*

28:14 ... hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, ... 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell(the grave) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

That is, the scornful say they will make a bargain with death so as to escape the bad times.

The so called New Testament does talk about an agreement with death:

*

Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament(covenant), that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

*

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

*

Colossians 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

*

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

*

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

*

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

This is just what Isaiah is warning against -- people who plot an agreement with death so as to avoid their own personal misfortune. Isaiah says, however, that it won't work:

*

Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Isaiah 24:16-17 warns against treachery:

*

16 ... woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously;... 17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth. 18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.

Could this be Christianity:

FEAR:

*

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

*

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

THE PIT:

*

Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

*

Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

THE SNARE:

*

Mark 1:16 Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.

*

Luke 5:10 And so [was] also James, and John, the sons of Zebedee, which were partners with Simon. And Jesus said unto Simon, Fear not; from henceforth thou shalt catch men.

Far fetched? No more so than the quotes missionaries use to support their ideas.

Here is another end of times prediction:

Isaiah 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, ... 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

HIGH ONES IN HIGH PLACES:

Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:

Again, Isaiah does not bode will for these:

*

Isaiah 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

Isaiah talks about pride:

*

Isaiah 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty [is] a fading flower, which [are] on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Who gets to wear such a crown?

*

28:5 In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,

But the so called New Testament says:

*

1 Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

Who does Isaiah say is able to learn?

*

Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

But the so called New Testament says the opposite:

*

1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat[see also Is28:10,13]: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

So what to make of all this? Is Isaiah really warning against Christians and Christianity?

You decide.

Yes, when these nations and their kings hear what they have not been told, they will shut their mouths and try to understand it and say "Who would have believed this report?" [isaiah 52-15-53:1]

Copyright 2001. This means only that you should give me credit by including my E-mail (fiddlerzvi@att.net) and webpage (http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/) address and this copyright notice if you share this page with anyone.

[saucy]

You have a good post there, but you wasted your time. Nobody here believes a single word of the bible.

[Chauncy]

Thats some thought provoking text you posted beowulf!! As with all scripture it is totally submissive to the interpreter.

This whole Jesus religion thing is great to talk about. But it has happened in society in front of many with 2 representatives , one from each side. And is kind of cool to note who won the debate HANDS DOWN!!!

http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/goddbt1.htm

http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/msgddb4.htm

[Stellar]

Has anyone ever noticed that it doesnt really seem like Satan in the Bible does as many bad things as God does?

[+joc]

This whole Jesus religion thing is great to talk about. But it has happened in society in front of many with 2 representatives , one from each side. And is kind of cool to note who won the debate HANDS DOWN!!!

In the first place it isn't a debate and in the second place: it isn't about logic,

it isn't about consistency of the Gospels...it is about Forgiveness.

Jesus preached and taught forgiveness. When he was dying on the cross he was forgiving the ones who were doing it.

It isn't about a way someone 'feels'. Sure it seems that way if all you do is watch the so called 'healer..televangelists'. It isn't about healing. It is about forgiveness.

Jesus was very clear about forgiveness: He said, " If you forgive those who have sinned against you then your Father in Heaven will forgive you of your sins, but if you do not forgive those who have sinned against you neither will the Father forgive your sins."

The Cross changes peoples hearts....not just the way they 'feel'.

[DrStrangelove]

Hmmm. A thread about Jesus? I think I might just post here.

Jesus was born to Mary and Joseph. Mary was a virgin but I don't know about Joseph. The thing that makes Jesus different from all other births is that his Mother was a virgin! We all know sin is passed through from man. Now Jesus recieved no "contribution" from a man so He is perfect (perfection is lack of sin). Now anyways, He was born without sin as I said and the wages of sin is death. Now everyone here viewing this message and everyone else who hasn't veiwed it (exept Jesus) has sinned at least once in their life. Now instead of us dying Jesus was born so tha He could die in our place so that we could get out of death, Wahoo! Now some of you might be thinking 'people dye every day, where is this compinsation that Jesus gave me?' and the answeris simple. By death, what is meat is hell. Hell is eternal death. That is what we were saved from. So Jesus was born and died. Jesus didn't have to die though; He didn't sin remember? He let those crucifiers kill him. He didn't have to die though. But the wages of sin is death. So God sent Jesus. That was His purpose. If anyone woud like to rebutt me or point out anything that you disagree with please Persnal Message me through this website. Please don't rebutt here on this thread. Last two times people did that the threads were closed.

Now, on with my opinions and facts!...

What's scary is that it is possible to create another Jesus! Yipes! That's some weird stuff. It could be done by someone taking an unfirtalized female human egg (it has to be human, animals connot sin; they don't have souls) and injecting the egg with the other chromozones it needs. These other chromozones must come from a woman. Therefore, you will have a life withou "contribution" from a man. This has been done sucessfully before with animals. I thought it was a neat little theory. I don't, however, think God will allow earth to go on long enough to let that happen. Jesus is the only perfect human being.

[Chauncy]

What's scary is that it is possible to create another Jesus! Yipes! That's some weird stuff. It could be done by someone taking an unfirtalized female human egg (it has to be human, animals connot sin; they don't have souls) and injecting the egg with the other chromozones it needs.

ACTUALLY I believe you would need some DNA from your main dude Jesus before that could happen.

Where would you get that from?

[Seraphina]

Has anyone ever noticed that it doesnt really seem like Satan in the Bible does as many bad things as God does?

Yes, I've brought that up frequently It has seemed to me for a very long time that God is the villain of the peice...because he's one hell of a ruthless and evil hero figure

At the end of the day, if we're to entertain the possibility of the bible being true, then God has murdered literally millions of people...he's drowned innocent babies in their cribs...he's ruled the world with an iron fist, and makes every other dictator in history pale into insignificance.

What's the devil done? "Led you astray"? It's...kinda sad.

[Chauncy]

Its weird also that in the whole Adam and Eve scandal with the apple that the snake gets the bad rap.

God says don't eat the apple you'll die, Eve says cool, the snake comes and tells the TRUTH by informing her that God did in fact lie to her and the apple won't kill her, God just doesn't want your eyes open like his.

Eve believes him and the snake was right. God exiles the snake and the newlyweds as well.

This is where God speaks in the pluralization , "eyes open like ours" which is indicative of a group of Gods.

[Stellar]

Doesnt that prove that God wants us to be ignorant of the facts and blindly follow him? Satan meerly gave us knowledge and understanding and in a way, freed us.

[DrStrangelove]

ACTUALLY I believe you would need some DNA from your main dude Jesus before that could happen.

No, I was meaning we would be able to create another perfect being. I should have clarified that. I think we would be able to create another human without sin.

At the end of the day, if we're to entertain the possibility of the bible being true, then God has murdered literally millions of people...he's drowned innocent babies in their cribs...he's ruled the world with an iron fist, and makes every other dictator in history pale into insignificance.

Are you saying God doesn't have the right to kill His own creation if He sees fit? The pre-flood peple were described as people who had no ounce of goodness in them, all of their thoughts were set on evil things, every single one of their thoughts. If you were God and you knew if you were to let that go on and let all those "innocent"* babies grow up to be consumed by evil (andremember God has a better understanding of what evil is, it doesn't matter what you think it is or isn't) wouldn't you destroy them?

God says don't eat the apple you'll die, Eve says cool, the snake comes and tells the TRUTH by informing her that God did in fact lie to her and the apple won't kill her, God just doesn't want your eyes open like his.

But the satan (the snake) did lie. Adam and Eve were ignorant of evil and God said they could live in ths garden free of sin, strife, hunger, fear, anger, and disease as long as they don't eat the fruit off this one tree. This trees fruit would able adam and eve to see not only what good is but what evil is. God aready knew wha evil and good was, by the way. And she did that because the snake said that God lied when He said "if you eat the apple you will die." The snake lied to eve saying "God lied to you, if yo were to eat it you won't die." She did eat it, and she did die (after a very long life I might add). People weren't supposed to die. They were supposed to live for ever and have a relationship qwith God. But now sin has consumed man and that hs given us te ability to die. I don't see how you can be so incorrect. Everyone here takes the Bible and warps what it is saying. It's so obvious. Yeah God killed abunch of people. But He had every right to kill them. But you ar right, In one aspect, Chauncy. God originally intended us to not know the things He does. We weren't supposed to kno about sin and evil.

Eve believes him and the snake was right. God exiles the snake and the newlyweds as well.

Yeah, they were banished. Satan (the snake) said they (adam and eve) wouldn't die. They did. Satan (the snake) said that God was lying and that they wouldn't die. They (adam and Eve) did die. Satan (the snake) said they wouldn't die. They did. I believe that constitutes a lie on the snakes part, Chauncy.

This is where God speaks in the pluralization , "eyes open like ours" which is indicative of a group of Gods.

No, there is no group of Gods. There is one God who has the being of three. If you don't understand that then I am sorry. Maybe this will make sence, God created mathmatics, I don't think He would be applicable to something He created. Physics and mathmatics doens't apply to God. He is one and He is three... at the same time. Although that is a fact, it isn't important. Salvation is the main part of the Bible. It's what the Bible is all about.

Doesnt that prove that God wants us to be ignorant of the facts and blindly follow him? Satan meerly gave us knowledge and understanding and in a way, freed us.

lmfao. Satan freed us? Satan tempted Eve to eat the apple which gave her insight to what evil and all things bad is. God didn't want us to know about evil and sin. God intended us to remain ignorant of evil. That's a good thing. Being ignorant of evil os good. Being ignorant of sin is good. Not knowing it is good. Why do you think that knowing evil and sin is god. How could that possibly help out mankind?!? Again, it woud be better if we did not know about sin and evil.

[Chauncy]

Yeah, they were banished. Satan (the snake) said they (adam and eve) wouldn't die. They did. Satan (the snake) said that God was lying and that they wouldn't die. They (adam and Eve) did die. Satan (the snake) said they wouldn't die. They did. I believe that constitutes a lie on the snakes part, Chauncy.

Really now, I thought Adam died at 930 years old? Niether one of them died as a result of the apple!

Gen5:5.

And don't throw that Trinity stuff around like that explains the pluralization of Gods in the Bible. The concept of a Trinity was not PERFECTED until 325 a.d at the Council of Nicea. And you know why it was PERFECTED then?......so you could sit here today and say thats what the pluralization represents!

Edited May 17, 2004 by Chauncy