Jeweller warned over 'racially offensive'

[Lord Umbarger]

Technically it is not racism, it is Nazism.

I dont' see how it would be "Nazi-ism but, that doesn't mean that I agree with the jeweler.

This approach contradicts wording and sense of Universal Declaration of Human Rights from 1948...

Of course, no one really takes the UDHR seriously because it is touted by the U.N. It really has no teeth unless if is enforced by the national governments

...and in some countries which are signatorees to the Declaration this can involve criminal charges as a felony.

TRUE! In some nations and states you can get in a lot of trouble for even posting that sort of sign, let alone if you actually do descriminate against a segment of the population. Even though it does still happen on rare occasions, it is illegal to refuse to do business with someone based on their race or religion in the United States. You can get a serious fine and I think even jail time too. Not sure about the jail time though.

This was the primary reason he got the warning from police, not from human rights activists - because what he did was a felony.

Good point. That possibility eluded me on my first reading of the article. Of course, had it happened in the U.S., there would have been human rights groups, civil rights groups and a lot of church outfits protesting the store within hours of that sign even being posted, even if it had just been put there as a joke or something.

I look at it like this... black, white, yellow, red, who cares, as long as your money is GREEN! Yeah, I'm a capitolist and I ain't ashamed of it either! LOL! All I ask is that you speak English in my store.... of course, if you place a large enough order, SOY HABLA ESPANOLE POR USTED!

[Agent X]

It's right out of Bill Cosby. The people of Europe want peace and quiet so they'll target the wrong people.

[sam12six]

Sam, this jeweller chose to select a large group of people basing on their ethnicity and ban them from his business. Technically it is not racism, it is Nazism. This approach contradicts wording and sense of Universal Declaration of Human Rights from 1948, and in some countries which are signatorees to the Declaration this can involve criminal charges as a felony. This was the primary reason he got the warning from police, not from human rights activists - because what he did was a felony.

I understand what you're saying, I just don't believe in the government forcing a private business person to do business with someone he or she doesn't wish to do business with. Beyond that, it just never really works.

I know businesses where the owner doesn't like black people. The owner of the business and the employees just treat black would-be-customers so badly that they never come back in. I know business owners who don't like gay people (or rather, people they believe are gay). They can't actually say they won't hire a gay person, but if they think a guy is a little "too expressive" or a woman looks too "hard", they don't get a job and they never find out why.

In either case, being legally permitted to post a sign would eliminate the person being mistreated because they wouldn't have bothered darkening the bigot's door in the first place.

By posting a sign saying I don't serve Eastern Europeans, the only thing I'm accomplishing is sharply reducing my potential customer base (and by extension, my potential profit). This is a decision I believe a business owner should have a right to make.

The only exception I'd make would be that any business that does business directly with the government should be one that complies with that particular government's stance on discrimination.

[fandango]

Poor guy, but to be honest lets face it, if they want to rob him is a sign going to do much good really, they would just come in anyway:

Alternative:

Hang a sign saying "Right of admission reserved" like they do at nightclubs over here in the Uk. Lock the doors and have an intercom system fitted.

The sign wouldn't be racist because it is relevant to every race and ethnic background.

Alternative 2: I have seen this in certain jewellers shops. Sign says "By Prior Appointment Only".

[MARAB0D]

Sam - businesses operate in PUBLIC places, and racist or Nazi propaganda is not usually allowed in public places. If he had a shop on his land property, then he could limit the access to his own land for whoever he selected, but still could not put a sign like that - because the sign would be exposed to public place. Therefore, once again he was supposed to have the guards or a surveillance system, I bet such shop won't sell a box of redheads per annum

LU - the human rights points from UN Declaration were partially included in the Constitutions of the signing country. To make them globally included, they still fight for it. Those who included, have LAWS based on the Constitution, hence the felony. I do not know about USA, maybe Nazi propaganda (this is not racism because Gypsies are purer Aryans than Finns, Japanese or Hungarians, so this is within one the same race)is allowed there in public places, but not in EU for sure.

[sam12six]

Sam - businesses operate in PUBLIC places, and racist or Nazi propaganda is not usually allowed in public places. If he had a shop on his land property, then he could limit the access to his own land for whoever he selected, but still could not put a sign like that - because the sign would be exposed to public place. Therefore, once again he was supposed to have the guards or a surveillance system, I bet such shop won't sell a box of redheads per annum

LU - the human rights points from UN Declaration were partially included in the Constitutions of the signing country. To make them globally included, they still fight for it. Those who included, have LAWS based on the Constitution, hence the felony. I do not know about USA, maybe Nazi propaganda (this is not racism because Gypsies are purer Aryans than Finns, Japanese or Hungarians, so this is within one the same race)is allowed there in public places, but not in EU for sure.

I wasn't arguing that the shop owner's sign isn't illegal, just that it shouldn't be. There are a lot of things that are illegal that shouldn't be. It's illegal in Europe to wonder aloud whether the Nazis used gas chambers to execute people during WWII. It doesn't matter whether your opinion is that there is such overwhelming evidence that the gas chambers were execution tools that only an idiot could think otherwise or if your opinion is that the gas chambers as they are presented are inadequate to kill human beings (I'm not making that assertion, just saying that might be the opposite opinion) - what matters is that criminalizing the very inquiry is the height of a government being iron-fisted.

Similarly, doing business is a voluntary activity that theoretically benefits both parties involved. A given person should be able to choose with whom to carry out the mutually beneficial activity. Most people agree with this. I'm just extending it to say that a person should not only be able to choose whom to do business with, but tell the truth about his or her preferences.

Like I said before, if you don't want your government to allow the public mention of race, ethnicity, national origin, political affiliation, etc... - that's your preference. I just think if that's your position, a sign that says "Jews are great" should be as illegal as a sign that says "Jews are satan spawns". If it's your position that a sign that says "We love Eastern Europeans, Welcome to our shop!!!" is ok, then so should be the sign the shop owner actually posted.

[MARAB0D]

I wasn't arguing that the shop owner's sign isn't illegal, just that it shouldn't be. There are a lot of things that are illegal that shouldn't be. It's illegal in Europe to wonder aloud whether the Nazis used gas chambers to execute people during WWII. It doesn't matter whether your opinion is that there is such overwhelming evidence that the gas chambers were execution tools that only an idiot could think otherwise or if your opinion is that the gas chambers as they are presented are inadequate to kill human beings (I'm not making that assertion, just saying that might be the opposite opinion) - what matters is that criminalizing the very inquiry is the height of a government being iron-fisted.

Similarly, doing business is a voluntary activity that theoretically benefits both parties involved. A given person should be able to choose with whom to carry out the mutually beneficial activity. Most people agree with this. I'm just extending it to say that a person should not only be able to choose whom to do business with, but tell the truth about his or her preferences.

Like I said before, if you don't want your government to allow the public mention of race, ethnicity, national origin, political affiliation, etc... - that's your preference. I just think if that's your position, a sign that says "Jews are great" should be as illegal as a sign that says "Jews are satan spawns". If it's your position that a sign that says "We love Eastern Europeans, Welcome to our shop!!!" is ok, then so should be the sign the shop owner actually posted.

Now, Sam - you are talking about "preferences". Europe in total lost 40 million people in order to get rid of Nazis. Your own country may have not lost that much, so you can talk about "preferences" - fair go! But the Nazis were killing specifically two ethnicities - Jews and Gypsies. All others were OK since they collaborate, but yet these others were fighting. If YOU did not lose any personal family members in that past fight, you would NEVER be able to understand what I was saying - simply because your own family was not touched. But I lost my Granddad, who was burnt alive in his tank in 1942, leaving my grandma with 3 children to rise without military pension, because his body was only found in 1998, thus proving he was not a traitor or a deserter. Hence they were living STARVING, which directly affected my own childhood.

This jeweller is a NAZI, and it is only thanx to European liberalism that he does not get 9 gramms in his forehead, but instead is only gently warned by the police. If I personally saw such sign in a shopping mall, I cannot predict my immediate reaction, and I am not a Gypsie, I am just a Russian, and we lost 25 million lives in that war, including some other members of my family, You, perhaps, never liaised in person with death camps inmates, this is why for you the happening is a pure abstract story. This misconception does not make yourself a Nazi at all, it just shows that you have no clue about the matter you take the responsibility to express a judgement of.

[MARAB0D]

Gypsies aren't even "slavic", they're actually related to Indians.

So it's a really silly generalization in the long run.

Ohh, yet another racial expert! Gypsies are almost 100% Aryans, even Hitler was admitting this. They are more Aryans than Germans! Nazis only postulated that they are the shame for the Aryan race, hence the killings.

[MARAB0D]

Pure Aryans are Persians, the very name "Aryan" comes from the place of residence - Iran. Indians have strong Aryan component, and Gypsies are light-skinned Indians, same as most Pakistani or Afghani or Tadjiks. THEY are the Aryans, and we all are just a mixed bitsa with some Aryan component. Certainly, Germans too.

[sam12six]

Now, Sam - you are talking about "preferences". Europe in total lost 40 million people in order to get rid of Nazis. Your own country may have not lost that much, so you can talk about "preferences" - fair go! But the Nazis were killing specifically two ethnicities - Jews and Gypsies. All others were OK since they collaborate, but yet these others were fighting. If YOU did not lose any personal family members in that past fight, you would NEVER be able to understand what I was saying - simply because your own family was not touched. But I lost my Granddad, who was burnt alive in his tank in 1942, leaving my grandma with 3 children to rise without military pension, because his body was only found in 1998, thus proving he was not a traitor or a deserter. Hence they were living STARVING, which directly affected my own childhood.

This jeweller is a NAZI, and it is only thanx to European liberalism that he does not get 9 gramms in his forehead, but instead is only gently warned by the police. If I personally saw such sign in a shopping mall, I cannot predict my immediate reaction, and I am not a Gypsie, I am just a Russian, and we lost 25 million lives in that war, including some other members of my family, You, perhaps, never liaised in person with death camps inmates, this is why for you the happening is a pure abstract story. This misconception does not make yourself a Nazi at all, it just shows that you have no clue about the matter you take the responsibility to express a judgement of.

You're 100% right. I can't (and never will) understand the emotional impact you've felt from these things that are only history to me. The experiences you've had understandably make this an emotional area of discussion for you.

That said, I truly believe in freedom. I also believe part of being a free society means fighting for the right of people to hold and express opinions I find disgusting because society changes and tomorrow the disgusting opinion might be mine.

While it's understandable, your negativity toward anyone who espouses opinions you associate with the Third Reich is no different from someone who hates all Christians because many of their ancestors were killed by the Knights Templar. Also understandable, but not an opinion or emotional reaction that should dictate government policy.

This is what I meant by preference (I assume your issue with my choice of words is that you feel like it downplays the suffering felt on many fronts as a result of WWII). In a perfect world, there would be no discrimination of any type. I don't think we'll ever get to that point because I believe it's human nature to look for a group to "belong" to (and thereby create a group of "undesirables").

Short of that perfect world, I think the best we can do is have our governments allow any and all opinions and only step in when someone is trying to use these opinions to infringe on the freedoms of others. Keep in mind, if the German government did this pre-WWII, there would have been no singling out of any ethnic or social group for internment. That's my preference - a free society. In the situation of the jeweler in the OP, he has an ideology I disagree with. In spite of that, I still believe he should have the right to do business with anyone he chooses, disqualifying would-be customers by whatever criteria he chooses. Again, the only injury done is to his potential profit.

[MARAB0D]

Well it is true that they are descended from Indians who migrated long ago, they just settled in eastern Europe.

The problem with them is not their race just their culture seems to encourage stealing. Literally every central/balkan/eastern European I talk to claims the stereotypes about them are true. I don't believe any behavior is genetic so it's probably their culture.

But the point was that even Hitler never had any problems with their race, but only with their culture! Europe took some responsibility when expanding - so Europe has to pay for their education!

[MARAB0D]

Sam, I do not have any negativity, even toward 3rd Reich or Nazis. I was simply saying that our overall development was a very painful way AWAY from singling out some ethnic group and claiming it as "crooks". If we follow the way of this jeweller, we would arrive in the Past - which was extremely costly for all to get rid of. Yes, the Gypsies ARE criminals, and I understand this - but they are the same time just people, PEOPLE, not some rabid dogs which have invaded Europe.

They can be a plague - YES! But the solution to this plague is not in the Nazi-style signs, but in some wise policies, supported by adequate funding. The swarm of locust is a plague, but each locust by itself is just a charming grasshopper. The way they act like they act must have a rational REASON, there must be a think tank working to analyse this reason and decide how to eliminate it - the reason, not the Gypsies. They are like the Jews in all respects - some Radja thousand or more years ago expelled them from their lands, so they have nowhere to go since. They change the countries, religions, languages - just to survive on any expense. Now they see liberal Europeans as an easy prey - so they take the chances. Because they do not have a real home, and feel aliens anywhere, even in Romania - this is why they run out of it! In USSR the government was giving them towns and villages to live and work, and majority of them became blacksmiths, horse grooms, shepherds, minority became musicians, writers, singers, dancers, actors and composers - there is still a Gypsie Theatre in Moscow, try to buy the tickets! Some still remained nomadic, some still do fortune-telling in the streets, some still steal - yes. But majority of them are not! Many are rich and respected people now, and were already 50 years ago and more.

Nomadic Gypsies live like the nomadic Kurds, sometimes it is hard to distinguish at once, are you entering a Kurdish campsite or a Gypsie's one. They are not criminals, this is just their way of living - and it takes some force and some persuasion plus some education to change them, to prove to them that they are HOME, not on a move. Then they become normal citizens like anyone else. But for doing this one needs a good will first, as otherwise they would continue seeing themselves as hated outcasts.

[sam12six]

I think we're discussing 2 different issues here. My point is not that the jeweler is right and all Eastern Europeans are crooks. My point is that the shop owner should have the right to do business with whomever he chooses for whatever reason he chooses.

You're saying a government can help an "identity-less" group find a home and a productive niche in society. I agree.

The thing is: the government can't force people to accept other people, it can only force them to make alternate excuses for their non-acceptance. Because of this, such laws are useless and tend to be arbitrarily enforced.

As I said in my first post, if the shopkeeper is wrong and his policy of no Eastern Europeans will cost him profit, someone else will step in and take that profit. He should have the right to make the decision because it's his business and his potential profit.

Anyone can see that a sign saying "I hate Jews" is a bad thing from the perspective of a Jew. Likewise, anyone can see that a sign saying "I love Jews" is a good thing from the perspective of a Jew. My contention here is that if you allow the latter, you must accept the former in the interest of freedom of expression.

Like I said, either allow absolutely zero mention of race, religion, etc... (and good luck enforcing that), or allow ANY expression of the same (even the negative mentions).

[MARAB0D]

I think we're discussing 2 different issues here. My point is not that the jeweler is right and all Eastern Europeans are crooks. My point is that the shop owner should have the right to do business with whomever he chooses for whatever reason he chooses.

You're saying a government can help an "identity-less" group find a home and a productive niche in society. I agree.

The thing is: the government can't force people to accept other people, it can only force them to make alternate excuses for their non-acceptance. Because of this, such laws are useless and tend to be arbitrarily enforced.

As I said in my first post, if the shopkeeper is wrong and his policy of no Eastern Europeans will cost him profit, someone else will step in and take that profit. He should have the right to make the decision because it's his business and his potential profit.

Anyone can see that a sign saying "I hate Jews" is a bad thing from the perspective of a Jew. Likewise, anyone can see that a sign saying "I love Jews" is a good thing from the perspective of a Jew. My contention here is that if you allow the latter, you must accept the former in the interest of freedom of expression.

Like I said, either allow absolutely zero mention of race, religion, etc... (and good luck enforcing that), or allow ANY expression of the same (even the negative mentions).

Any business owner has all legal tools to restrict the access to his business those whom he does not want to deal with! Security guard, for example - who would in each individual case make a decision to prohibit individuals to access the shop, or would be closely following them. Also, a shop owner can restrict for suspicious buyers the number of pieces they can be allowed to examine at once - or to keep their a girl who would simply refuse to open the cabinet saying she has no keys and is just watching the shop. Or put a sign "no cash, Credit Cards only". Or hundreds other ways, which are not suggesting singling out one ethnic group. It may be a bit more costly, but protection costs money anyway. To just ban Gypsies is plain stupid, so that guy would have nothing to talk about with some Machiavelli or Spinoza.

Government does not need to force people to love Gypsies or Jews or anyone else - but Government can force people to respect the people of another ethnicity. This is what the entire concept of Human Rights is for, and the laws, based on it. Gypsies feel alienated - and act on this premise, "WE versus YOU ALL". As soon as they see some society wants to integrate them, this premise would vanish. Alternatively they need to be absolutely sure that for the behavior like that they would go to jail and be abused there by the local crooks. But they KNOW that both cops and legislation in EU are toothless to accomplish such goal, so they feel unsinkable. Even in the story with the jeweller -the cops were supposed to arrest him for this sign, but they only warned him, and probably they are warning the Gypsies the same way. EU laws are unfit for the expansion of EU, they were written entirely for Western Europeans as those got used to be law-obedient, differently from many new people from Eastern Europe, who got used to disregard the laws. Do you know that in ALL Eastern European countries the police officers take cash from any small offenders? Bribe and lawlessness are the norm there, so the Gypsies do not have much respect for the cops at all unless they start shooting. This is an educational matter, they are just new in Europe.

Edited July 21, 2009 by marabod

[Bill Hill]

Government does need to force people to love Gypsies

I'm trying...

I bought some lucky heather off a gypsy today.

It worked - she ****ed off.

[MARAB0D]

I'm trying...

I bought some lucky heather off a gypsy today.

It worked - she ****ed off.

LOL! I missed that "not" and had to edic cuz of it But certainly, the best and most painless way to repel the Gypos is to give them money. If you manage to introduce this in practice, I would myself go to Europe and claim I am a Gypsie.