Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
phreakstep

Your God is not real.

267 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Sherapy
Sure I have. You are assuming that believers think there is proof or logic to their faith. Since that isn't true, any conclusion you come to based on it is fallacious.

What does the faith of a believer have to do with an Atheists scientific argument? Nothing.

How am I doing that?

Kien quotes:

"You are assuming that believers think there is proof or logic to their faith. Since that isn't true, any conclusion you come to based on it is fallacious."

now this would be a fallacy: a straw man...

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting a superficially similar proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.[1][2]

if you would be so gracious as to stay on topic...

using our example can you tell me the fallacy in the argument, remember you claim there is one....

I am asking you to point it out..

A fallacy is an argument which provides poor reasoning in support of its conclusion.

it would be poor reasoning if one claimed faith as evidence or equated it with objectivity .......

kein what we have uncovered here is a bias, your bias...

"You are assuming that believers think there is proof or logic to their faith. Since that isn't true, any conclusion you come to based on it is fallacious."

first you are gonna have to substansiate this claim, because not all those that beleive in the g-d character think faith is proof of anything....... :tu:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
W Kein
Kien quotes:

"You are assuming that believers think there is proof or logic to their faith. Since that isn't true, any conclusion you come to based on it is fallacious."

now this would be a fallacy: a straw man...

Oh really? That's misrepresenting your argument? Then why did you say:

to claim to have evidence of a g-d character would be a fallacy

And I already pointed out that no one claims that. So it looks like you're the one misrepresenting your own argument? I wonder why anyone would do something like that?

if you would be so gracious as to stay on topic...

Since I didn't go off topic, I can only assume that your intention here is to be obnoxious. Maybe you should look at the rules.

using our example can you tell me the fallacy in the argument, remember you claim there is one....

I am asking you to point it out..

A fallacy is an argument which provides poor reasoning in support of its conclusion.

it would be poor reasoning if one claimed faith as evidence or equated it with objectivity .......

Exactly, which is why your argument is fallacious.

kein what we have uncovered here is a bias, your bias...

"You are assuming that believers think there is proof or logic to their faith. Since that isn't true, any conclusion you come to based on it is fallacious."

first you are gonna have to substansiate this claim, because not all those that beleive in the g-d character think faith is proof of anything....... :tu:

I know that. It was your claim, not mine. Why else would i say that it was a fallacy?

Maybe you should try to stay on topic instead of poor attempts to set up straw men.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GIDEON MAGE

Let me explain what a scientific experiment would involve, IMHO. A group of scientists would travel the world to various sites of "miracles", such as Lourdes or Fatima. They would take actual scientific equipment, to detect all available know forms of energy. They would monitor whether there were variations of light, sound, ultraviolet rays, electron emissions and so on. We would be looking for anything, whether anomalies or commonalities. The same equipment would be used to monitor people in prayer, from as many religions and spiritual disciplines available. i would suspect that EEg's and EKG's would also be useful, as well as blood work. Remember that we would not know exactly what we were looking for. Science is not based on supposition, but research. Eventually, assuming that something were found, say, for example, electron emissions or theta brain waves, then a theory would be developed, and tested. If anyone has found a study like this, I haven't heard of it, and would surely love to. If the results were negative, as in, no commonly detectable changes at a large percentage of sites and subjects, then conclusions must be drawn. If there were indeed something found it might be "God", or, for that matter, it might not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
not quite doug. just because we found buried remains, does not mean it has anything to do with an after life or god. its just a hypothesis.

so 30, 000 years is way off, since it cannot be proven. they could have easily been doing it, because they know how scavengers act, and didnt want their clans getting scattered across the land. if they even cared that much about their dead. some people believe they didnt, as they have just left them where they die, as they move on.

The earliest Neandethals apparently didn't bury their dead. The latest ones did. And left provisions for an afterlife in the graves. If you don't believe in an afterlife, why leave things for the deceased to eat, wear, etc.? And if there is an afterlife, there are spirits (gods).

The Neanderthals went extinct about 28,000 years ago in Spain. Admittedly, 30,000 years ago is a wildass guess because we don't know how long before that they started burying their dead; at least, I don't. But the point is: it was a long time ago and a few thousand years one way or the other doesn't invalidate the statement.

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
Let me explain what a scientific experiment would involve, IMHO. A group of scientists would travel the world to various sites of "miracles", such as Lourdes or Fatima. They would take actual scientific equipment, to detect all available know forms of energy. They would monitor whether there were variations of light, sound, ultraviolet rays, electron emissions and so on. We would be looking for anything, whether anomalies or commonalities. The same equipment would be used to monitor people in prayer, from as many religions and spiritual disciplines available. i would suspect that EEg's and EKG's would also be useful, as well as blood work. Remember that we would not know exactly what we were looking for. Science is not based on supposition, but research. Eventually, assuming that something were found, say, for example, electron emissions or theta brain waves, then a theory would be developed, and tested. If anyone has found a study like this, I haven't heard of it, and would surely love to. If the results were negative, as in, no commonly detectable changes at a large percentage of sites and subjects, then conclusions must be drawn. If there were indeed something found it might be "God", or, for that matter, it might not.

Now: write that up as a serious proposal, get it funded and go to work on it. Let us know where you get it published; I'd like to read your findings.

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cadetak
The earliest Neandethals apparently didn't bury their dead. The latest ones did. And left provisions for an afterlife in the graves. If you don't believe in an afterlife, why leave things for the deceased to eat, wear, etc.? And if there is an afterlife, there are spirits (gods).

The Neanderthals went extinct about 28,000 years ago in Spain. Admittedly, 30,000 years ago is a wildass guess because we don't know how long before that they started burying their dead; at least, I don't. But the point is: it was a long time ago and a few thousand years one way or the other doesn't invalidate the statement.

Doug

Couldn't they be burying them to get rid of the smell, and or not attract disease or scavenger animals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
W Kein

Don't elephants bury their dead?

At any rate, I agree that burying the dead with worldly effects might indicate some sort of belief in an afterlife. A rather odd ritual if it didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sherapy
Oh really? That's misrepresenting your argument? Then why did you say:

And I already pointed out that no one claims that. So it looks like you're the one misrepresenting your own argument? I wonder why anyone would do something like that?

Since I didn't go off topic, I can only assume that your intention here is to be obnoxious. Maybe you should look at the rules.

Exactly, which is why your argument is fallacious.

I know that. It was your claim, not mine. Why else would i say that it was a fallacy?

Maybe you should try to stay on topic instead of poor attempts to set up straw men.

a

the gist of your post is a irrelevant so i can't really address it..... so I will end on this note .....

kien quotes:

"God isn't a question that can be asked by science. That's why I'm opposed to Atheism. Atheists who use science to justify their position are operating on many logical fallacies."

this is what i am asking about kien,

i am wondering how using inductive reasoning is fallacious...

in my understanding the difference between the athiest and the beleiver is one uses inductive, one uses deductive..where the fallacy comes in is when one equates deductive as inductive ...

i was simply curious as to the many logical fallacies that the athiest is operating on...

.

thankyou for the converstation anyways...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
W Kein
the gist of your post is a irrelevant so i can't really address it.....

Ad Hominem. you are giving a very good demonstration on logical fallacies here, although i don't know if that was your intention.

Of course it isn't irrelevant. You accused me of setting up a strawman, but your accusation was a strawman.

kien quotes:

"God isn't a question that can be asked by science. That's why I'm opposed to Atheism. Atheists who use science to justify their position are operating on many logical fallacies."

this is what i am asking about kien,

i am wondering how using inductive reasoning is fallacious...

Again, I already answered that. Science can't even ask questions about god. Once you start from there, any argument using science is going to be a fallacy.

in my understanding the difference between the athiest and the beleiver is one uses inductive, one uses deductive..where the fallacy comes in is when one equates deductive as inductive ...

i was simply curious as to the many logical fallacies that the athiest is operating on...

See, look at that. You said, "where the fallacy comes in is when one equates deductive as inductive, which again proves that your accusation of me using strawmen was completely incorrect, and indeed a strawman itself.

Believers aren't attempting to turn inductive reasoning into deductive. In fact, it's the Atheists that are trying to do that. And you, evidently.

But thanks for demonstrating some of the fallacies I was referring to. :tu: Actual demonstrations are usually more enlightening than just explanations, so thanks for that! :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
HAJiME
If God exists, there has to be some detectable trace or energy, period.
Whilst I believe that this is true, the problem would be that due to God existing outside of our understanding, he wouldn't be detectable to us.

Any sensible person would conclude that it's sensible to assume he doesn't exist since there is no way that we could sense him if he did, and thus have no reason to think he might exist. But no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cadetak
Any sensible person would conclude that it's sensible to assume he doesn't exist since there is no way that we could sense him if he did, and thus have no reason to think he might exist. But no.

What your saying is that either way, Atheist or Theist, it's an assumption based on nothing.

Whilst I believe that this is true, the problem would be that due to God existing outside of our understanding, he wouldn't be detectable to us.

By your belief and our current understanding and detection methods.

The problem is that 'God' has not bin accurately defined by anybody. Any definition created is entirely made up because there is no evidence to base a definition on. How do you prove or disprove something if nobody has any clue what that something is? You can't.

Edited by Cadetak

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GIDEON MAGE
Now: write that up as a serious proposal, get it funded and go to work on it. Let us know where you get it published; I'd like to read your findings.

Doug

I guess that's a compliment. I have never done any scientific research, nor would I know how to write up such a proposal, nor get funding. My scientific background is in the medical field, anthropology and linguistics, so I have only a vague idea what would be done. However, for God's sake, there are scientists working on the development on a non-tear inducing onion!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
W Kein
What your saying is that either way, Atheist or Theist, it's an assumption based on nothing.

By your belief and our current understanding and detection methods.

The problem is that 'God' has not bin accurately defined by anybody. Any definition created is entirely made up because there is no evidence to base a definition on.

They should probably just read the quote in your sig. ;)

It seems so simple, but no one seems to get that. Or there are too many schools teaching people to be Aristotlean.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shine on you crazy diamond

let me just say that i used to think very much like you, phreakstep. i was so egotistical that i couldn't accept the idea that there could be anything in this entire universe greater than myself. i got away with living a lifestyle based upon this idea for many years until i got my wake up call while driving my car at over a hundred miles per hour on the german autobahn. this day happened not more than a year ago, when all the fragments of my research coalesced and - shall i say? - descended upon me with the wrath that only God is capable of.

God is very real. you can make conjectures all you want about His laws and various other issues branching into the psuedo-philosophical, however, the truth remains that God is real and He created you to worship Him. to lead yourself and others astray when all the answers are right before your nose is quite sad to me, because i was once there, but He actually gave me a second chance. a day will come when you will realize truth, i promise you, only then i pray that it is not too late for you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agent. Mulder
The earliest Neandethals apparently didn't bury their dead. The latest ones did. And left provisions for an afterlife in the graves. If you don't believe in an afterlife, why leave things for the deceased to eat, wear, etc.? And if there is an afterlife, there are spirits (gods).

The Neanderthals went extinct about 28,000 years ago in Spain. Admittedly, 30,000 years ago is a wildass guess because we don't know how long before that they started burying their dead; at least, I don't. But the point is: it was a long time ago and a few thousand years one way or the other doesn't invalidate the statement.

Doug

i just stated a reason why they ,ay bury their dead. another is jut rememberance, if they indeed Did remember. some think not, as they believe they just left them once they died. they may have mourned, but they just carried on with what they were doing after.

the afterlife idea is just a hypothesis, which is an interesting one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agent. Mulder
let me just say that i used to think very much like you, phreakstep. i was so egotistical that i couldn't accept the idea that there could be anything in this entire universe greater than myself. i got away with living a lifestyle based upon this idea for many years until i got my wake up call while driving my car at over a hundred miles per hour on the german autobahn. this day happened not more than a year ago, when all the fragments of my research coalesced and - shall i say? - descended upon me with the wrath that only God is capable of.

...ok, sooo, what kind of wrath? what happened?

God is very real. you can make conjectures all you want about His laws and various other issues branching into the psuedo-philosophical, however, the truth remains that God is real and He created you to worship Him. to lead yourself and others astray when all the answers are right before your nose is quite sad to me, because i was once there, but He actually gave me a second chance. a day will come when you will realize truth, i promise you, only then i pray that it is not too late for you.

its funny how you claim something is truth, but back it up with 'because i believe it. its based on nothing at all, other than my belief. but that makes it fact'.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
Couldn't they be burying them to get rid of the smell, and or not attract disease or scavenger animals?

You don't supply them with food, beadwork and other items if you are only interested in getting rid of the smell.

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cadetak
You don't supply them with food, beadwork and other items if you are only interested in getting rid of the smell.

Doug

Oh your talking about those kind of early burials. I understand now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
God is very real. you can make conjectures all you want about His laws and various other issues branching into the psuedo-philosophical, however, the truth remains that God is real and He created you to worship Him. to lead yourself and others astray when all the answers are right before your nose is quite sad to me, because i was once there, but He actually gave me a second chance. a day will come when you will realize truth, i promise you, only then i pray that it is not too late for you.

I once realized that god was very real. Then some failings on god's part got me to thinking: what evidence underpins belief in god? I couldn't find any or anybody who could show me any. There is no tangible evidence of anything supernatural.

Because you, I or the preacher happen to think there is a god, does not in any way demonstrate the idea as fact. If you choose to believe in God, do so; but have the integrity to admit that you do it without any supporting evidence.

And that's what is called faith.

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
I guess that's a compliment. I have never done any scientific research, nor would I know how to write up such a proposal, nor get funding. My scientific background is in the medical field, anthropology and linguistics, so I have only a vague idea what would be done. However, for God's sake, there are scientists working on the development on a non-tear inducing onion!

Not to mention a super pepper - as if Scotch bonnets aren't hot enough!

My point was that you don't need a Ph.D. to do good investigative work. If you learned enough to get along in the medical field or anthropology, I can't imagine you not being capable of doing this. It's not really as much about brains as it is about perseverance. Go to work on it, don't quit, and you'll eventually get there.

It would be like me trying to do quantum research: I'd have to spend years learning the basics, but if I wanted to do it, there's nothing stopping me. It's just that my interests lie elsewhere.

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
indeed it is circular lol....

'S♥ ♥ ♥'. Is that you, Sheri? Why the name change?

I always thought you should use "Super-Sheri" instead of "Supra Sheri".

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Saru

Thread cleaned

I seem to have been cleaning a lot of threads today in this section, once again can members please keep the bickering and personal attacks off the forums.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dr. Peter Venkman
Thread cleaned

I seem to have been cleaning a lot of threads today in this section, once again can members please keep the bickering and personal attacks off the forums.

Ah, the 3rd rock thing was funny man!!!! We all miss good ol' 3rd and the love the sun philosophy!!!

he's be right in the thick of this one for sure lol!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doug1029
Ad Hominem. you are giving a very good demonstration on logical fallacies here, although i don't know if that was your intention.

Of course it isn't irrelevant. You accused me of setting up a strawman, but your accusation was a strawman.

Time to chill out and have a cold one. (There's one several posts up.).

At any rate, your use of the term "Ad Hominem" is about to send me back to my Funk and Wagnals to see if I have the definition right.

I don't think Sheri's really disagreeing with you. And I see your point about the question being meaningless without a good definition of god - we don't even know what it is that we do/don't believe in.

So here's to General Guiness of the Dublin booziliers!

Doug

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Raptor

This thread confuses me.

God isn't a question that can be asked by science. That's why I'm opposed to Atheism. Atheists who use science to justify their position are operating on many logical fallacies.

Can you articulate the 'many fallacies' that the atheists are using to justify concluding that the evidence doesn't suggest a g-d character? If you would be so gracious... :D

[Clearly states fallacies]

[Asks what the fallacies are - again]

Then S♥ ♥ ♥ continues to accuse W. Kein of going off topic, posting irrelevant information and employing fallacies; he addresses these claims logically and somehow comes off as the bad guy?

:huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.