:innocent: What is Heavens?

[MysticOnion]

I already looked in Malny Hall's Encyclopaedia. Not all "secret teachings" are representing some knowledge, many simply belong to the religious sects. In esoteric sense there is no trees and no shapes, as this is all just temporary illusion derived from Nothing, all I can do is to check the local market for cubic carrots.

Well in my humble opinion when they described Heaven or Heavens in the bible - what they actually meant was Qabalah. Even the face of Jesus Christ is modelled on the sacred Geometry found in Qabalah, and this interesting sacred feminine thing people are all on about these days stems from the Qabalah which is also the Elohim and the female part of God also known as the Glory of God.

[MARAB0D]

Well in my humble opinion when they described Heaven or Heavens in the bible - what they actually meant was Qabalah. Even the face of Jesus Christ is modelled on the sacred Geometry found in Qabalah, and this interesting sacred feminine thing people are all on about these days stems from the Qabalah which is also the Elohim and the female part of God also known as the Glory of God.

These secret terms are only because there is no human words for these things, so the adepts were using euphemisms and romantic images. You otta know there is nothing, and the rest is just a derivative. The derivatives are dynamic, in their base they are just swirls of something which is neither solid matter nor energy field, so these swirls can be of any shapes and forms, including a cube. Shapes are illusionary because by their sense they are abstract and subtle, despite on macro-lever they appear as "solid" - however "mass" is only a measure of Inertia, and this inertia comes from innumerous internal rotations of tiny gyroscopes which constitute us, and what exactly rotates in them is not "material" in our sense of this word but is a derivative of Nothing, a part of a virtual antagonistic pair into which this nothing splits in order to exist. This rotation creates the illusion of Matter, and we are part of it and perceive the other parts of it as Objective Reality. Nothing has its Consciousness, and we are images of this consciousness, and sometimes can touch it inside ourself and acquire it for short moments, in which we can stop be material and thus allow the Nothing to act in this world through us... When the stuff like that is presented in the form of words, it always sounds crazy, so the esoteric dudes use images instead, hence all these "qabalas", "trees" etc.

[Lt_Ripley]

Well in my humble opinion when they described Heaven or Heavens in the bible - what they actually meant was Qabalah. Even the face of Jesus Christ is modelled on the sacred Geometry found in Qabalah, and this interesting sacred feminine thing people are all on about these days stems from the Qabalah which is also the Elohim and the female part of God also known as the Glory of God.

lmao. one could look at clouds too and see bunny rabbits.

[MARAB0D]

lmao. one could look at clouds too and see bunny rabbits.

Yes! This is precisely why some worship Bunny each Easter.

[MysticOnion]

No you don't understand. Its not looking at something random and making a shape. Qabalah is based on the planets in the solar system. Its not random, it is purposely constructed like that, designed and drawn like that.. its not something that occurs randomly. Clouds aren't designed, do you see my point?

Somebody designed and drew out on to a peice of parchment or paper or stone or something, the tree of life as a cubical shape, a series of spheres with interconnections. It is no more accurate than an ephemeris. It is representative of the solar system. Do you get that?

As the ancients constructed this system they thought they were communicating with God - and so did the people who listened to them.

Now if you look at the descriptions for the Heavenly Jerusalem of St. John and then look at the general hexagonal shape of Jesus Christs face you'll see they are the same. Hexagonal - which is a cube in perspective which is the Tree of Life. It always amazes me how people can't see Christs face is hexagonal and cant connect the two - Qabalah - hexagonal, Heavenly Jerusalem - cubical, Merkabah/Star of David - six pointed star - hexagonal and so cubical in perspective.

Now whether or not the system is true, thats what people thought God was, and heaven and creation and future promises.. they didn't understand it but the prophets did.

It doesn't take a genius to see these things and connect them up. Why don't you?

[MARAB0D]

No you don't understand. Its not looking at something random and making a shape. Qabalah is based on the planets in the solar system. Its not random, it is purposely constructed like that, designed and drawn like that.. its not something that occurs randomly. Clouds aren't designed, do you see my point?

Somebody designed and drew out on to a peice of parchment or paper or stone or something, the tree of life as a cubical shape, a series of spheres with interconnections. It is no more accurate than an ephemeris. It is representative of the solar system. Do you get that?

As the ancients constructed this system they thought they were communicating with God - and so did the people who listened to them.

Now if you look at the descriptions for the Heavenly Jerusalem of St. John and then look at the general hexagonal shape of Jesus Christs face you'll see they are the same. Hexagonal - which is a cube in perspective which is the Tree of Life. It always amazes me how people can't see Christs face is hexagonal and cant connect the two - Qabalah - hexagonal, Heavenly Jerusalem - cubical, Merkabah/Star of David - six pointed star - hexagonal and so cubical in perspective.

Now whether or not the system is true, thats what people thought God was, and heaven and creation and future promises.. they didn't understand it but the prophets did.

It doesn't take a genius to see these things and connect them up. Why don't you?

So, are you saying that the modern Christians, Jews and Muslims are dreaming of something in the shape of a cube to house them after their death? Why then they do not share this model? There can be such concept of course, made up in the times when there was no understanding that a cube is just a 3-dimensional shape, and has a sense exclusively in 3-d geometrical space - but the 3d is only a feature of the actual Material World we live in, as the 4th dynamic dimension is stretched in it to Infinity, and the movement along it creates the illusion of life. We are just a set of multiple cartoon frames, which are animated only by this never-ending movement. This implies that the Heavens is a material thing, if it has physical attributes of the physical world. Cubic trees exist only in abstract paintings, style being called called Cubism.

[Jor-el]

I guess we've heard enough about the Hell. Say, the discussion of the stick is over, and we have taken this option of our future for consideration... Now, it is the time to hear about the carrot. Can someone, experienced in the Bible, explain what exactly are we given for our obedience and love? How do religious people visualise Heavens, what do they expect to see in it?

Actually, our stay in heaven will be limited to a certain time span. Until Christ returns in the 2nd coming.

After that, our future is clearly on earth. We will reign with christ on earth. We will form part of his government. The earth will, for 1000 years, be a Theocracy with Christ himself in command.

At the end of this time, a final attempt at revolution will take place by those who refuse to accept Christs Government. The destruction will wipe out these last insurrectionists and they and all the unbelievers and all the angels who sided against Gods governmnet will be cast into the lake of Fire. Basically they will cease to exist for good.

At this time God will create a new Heaven and a New Earth and the City of Heaven will Descend to be Called the New Jerusalem.

All believers will be given duties and tasks to perform in the physical universe that will exist then. As such we will take charge of the physical universe, and God will rule the Universe from Earth itself.

[KRS-One]

Paradise - no problem. What exactly people do in this paradise is what I am after. Zoo is also a paradise for some species.

Heaven is the plot of Vonnegut's"Slaughterhouse Five"?

[MARAB0D]

Actually, our stay in heaven will be limited to a certain time span. Until Christ returns in the 2nd coming.

After that, our future is clearly on earth. We will reign with christ on earth. We will form part of his government. The earth will, for 1000 years, be a Theocracy with Christ himself in command.

At the end of this time, a final attempt at revolution will take place by those who refuse to accept Christs Government. The destruction will wipe out these last insurrectionists and they and all the unbelievers and all the angels who sided against Gods governmnet will be cast into the lake of Fire. Basically they will cease to exist for good.

At this time God will create a new Heaven and a New Earth and the City of Heaven will Descend to be Called the New Jerusalem.

All believers will be given duties and tasks to perform in the physical universe that will exist then. As such we will take charge of the physical universe, and God will rule the Universe from Earth itself.

Jorel, this is a political perspective of Heavens. The OP is about the actual Heavens - what do they look like? What their social system would be? Life in them? Say, I wake up (being in heavens) - what do I do? Clean my teeth? Take my breakfast? Go to my work? Practrically, practically - I do not care Jesus is a president or whoever else. Do we have water-flushed toilets there? Who would be treating our waste waters? Would there be sex in heavens? Procreation? Schools? Kindies?

[Jor-el]

Jorel, this is a political perspective of Heavens. The OP is about the actual Heavens - what do they look like? What their social system would be? Life in them? Say, I wake up (being in heavens) - what do I do? Clean my teeth? Take my breakfast? Go to my work? Practrically, practically - I do not care Jesus is a president or whoever else. Do we have water-flushed toilets there? Who would be treating our waste waters? Would there be sex in heavens? Procreation? Schools? Kindies?

I would think that my post would answer that. We won't be in heaven, we will be on earth, we will have responsibilites, not sit around playing harps all day. We will work, we will have Jobs to do and we will also be administrators, that was our birthright right from the beginning. Gods instructions to Adam will be upheld, and we will do what Adam failed to do, be imagers and creators and oversee Gods creation.

We will have physical bodies, that is clearly explained, they will simply different in some fundamental ways. Let's take Jesus resurrected body as an example. He could eat, but he didn't have to. He could walk from place to place, but he didn't have to, He could walk through a door after opening it, but he didn't have to do so, etc, etc...

Draw your conclusions from what the bible talks of him after resurrection.

Marriage will not exist, since procreation will not exist, it will be something we left behind, along with mortality. Besides we'll be too busy for those kinds of distractions... our fundamental existence will change, that is for sure. We will, essentially be as the angels are now in some respects.

[MARAB0D]

I would think that my post would answer that. We won't be in heaven, we will be on earth, we will have responsibilites, not sit around playing harps all day. We will work, we will have Jobs to do and we will also be administrators, that was our birthright right from the beginning. Gods instructions to Adam will be upheld, and we will do what Adam failed to do, be imagers and creators and oversee Gods creation.

We will have physical bodies, that is clearly explained, they will simply different in some fundamental ways. Let's take Jesus resurrected body as an example. He could eat, but he didn't have to. He could walk from place to place, but he didn't have to, He could walk through a door after opening it, but he didn't have to do so, etc, etc...

Draw your conclusions from what the bible talks of him after resurrection.

Marriage will not exist, since procreation will not exist, it will be something we left behind, along with mortality. Besides we'll be too busy for those kinds of distractions... our fundamental existence will change, that is for sure. We will, essentially be as the angels are now in some respects.

So, the preachers lie when saying the firmest followers go to Heavens? Instead we would just stay on Earth? But we are ALREADY on Earth! If the procreation stops, this means we would lose some hormones, which call for it - would it mean the specific glands would be removed too? Would we be desexed??? Then why the believers do not want this right now?

Jesus after resurrection did not last for too long. Perhaps Thomas, putting fingers in his wounds demonstrated that it is safer to ascend to Heavens asap. If this undead state is what you are talking about is our future, then I do not want this for myself. Of such materialistic Heavens you describe I feel no need, as I already have job and boss and responsibilities, but I also have sex and family, and I like it this way better than becoming a eunuch for Jesus' sake. Not inspiring anyhow!

[Jor-el]

So, the preachers lie when saying the firmest followers go to Heavens? Instead we would just stay on Earth? But we are ALREADY on Earth! If the procreation stops, this means we would lose some hormones, which call for it - would it mean the specific glands would be removed too? Would we be desexed??? Then why the believers do not want this right now?

Jesus after resurrection did not last for too long. Perhaps Thomas, putting fingers in his wounds demonstrated that it is safer to ascend to Heavens asap. If this undead state is what you are talking about is our future, then I do not want this for myself. Of such materialistic Heavens you describe I feel no need, as I already have job and boss and responsibilities, but I also have sex and family, and I like it this way better than becoming a eunuch for Jesus' sake. Not inspiring anyhow!

As for the preachers, they aren't lying but they certainly aren't telling you everything. The destiny and purpose of humanitys' creation has to do with the physical universe, not become part of the spiritual universe as it is defined today.

But then that seperation between the two will also dissapear at that time.

A boss , you will always have, even if it's your own wife, you don't get anything for nothing... only in your fantasies... Sex is actually overrated when you think objectively on the issue... it's like a drug and if you abuse it, it serves the same purpose as overdrinking does, you simply waste away without actually feeling alive, that is truly being part of the undead...

And I should know, that was part of my life at one time...

As I said, those glorified bodies we will get upon our own resurrection will not be ruled by such mundane things...

Edited July 26, 2009 by Jor-el

[Lt_Ripley]

As for the preachers, they aren't lying but they certainly aren't telling you everything. The destiny and purpose of humanitys' creation has to do with the physical universe, not become part of the spiritual universe as it is defined today.

But then that seperation between the two will also dissapear at that time.

A boss , you will always have, even if it's your own wife, you don't get anything for nothing... only in your fantasies... Sex is actually overrated when you think objectively on the issue... it's like a drug and if you abuse it, it serves the same purpose as overdrinking does, you simply waste away without actually feeling alive, that is truly being part of the undead...

And I should know, that was part of my life at one time...

As I said, those glorified bodies we will get upon our own resurrection will not be ruled by such mundane things...

and if your opinion is wrong ? what then ?

[Jor-el]

and if your opinion is wrong ? what then ?

Well it comes right down to personal belief, but if I'm wrong, I certainly won't be around to regret it, will I?

I'm radical in this approcah, it may be a failing of mine, either it is the biblical God or it is no God....

[MARAB0D]

As for the preachers, they aren't lying but they certainly aren't telling you everything. The destiny and purpose of humanitys' creation has to do with the physical universe, not become part of the spiritual universe as it is defined today.

But then that seperation between the two will also dissapear at that time.

A boss , you will always have, even if it's your own wife, you don't get anything for nothing... only in your fantasies... Sex is actually overrated when you think objectively on the issue... it's like a drug and if you abuse it, it serves the same purpose as overdrinking does, you simply waste away without actually feeling alive, that is truly being part of the undead...

And I should know, that was part of my life at one time...

As I said, those glorified bodies we will get upon our own resurrection will not be ruled by such mundane things...

I see... Such type of semi-vegetable lifestyle in paradise must certainly be attractive for certain human mindsets, but hardly it can be seen as universal. What if I am ambitious enough to make my career in those spiritual realms, as you define today? Maybe I want to become an angel, a cherub or even a Creator of my own material Universe? Then of course this form of sexless Communism cannot attract me anyhow, as I would be simply bored in it. This must be the reason why I am repelled from the religions, as they want me to stay on Earth feeding the mosquitoes and experiencing nostalgia about my pre-Heavens life... Unless Jesus is kind enough to remove these memories completely - but the prospect to be lobotomized also does not appeal to me.

In fact the form of Communism you are presenting is the way how now the oligophrens and people with Down syndrome live - as they live in Communism, without thinking much of our economic reality. But if the heavenly things turn this way, and Heavens on earth would have Economy (people work!), then this Economy must be driven by some form of a market and some form of Economic Laws... Any work suggests health and safety problems, any industry suggests pollution and waste processing - so it is unclear would it all be like USA, like USSR or like some other model? Or all would be just riding donkeys and ploughing their pieces of land, like Taleban suggests?

[MARAB0D]

LOL, I have just realized that the Communist type of Heavens would require educated population of a considerable size, scientific institutions, engineers-consultants, universities et cetera. And what those saints would be doing in it, who died 1000 years ago and were considering science a deadly sin? Just imagine some Torquemada or Thomas Aquinas as managers of a simple automotive plant or a power station!

[Jor-el]

I see... Such type of semi-vegetable lifestyle in paradise must certainly be attractive for certain human mindsets, but hardly it can be seen as universal. What if I am ambitious enough to make my career in those spiritual realms, as you define today? Maybe I want to become an angel, a cherub or even a Creator of my own material Universe? Then of course this form of sexless Communism cannot attract me anyhow, as I would be simply bored in it. This must be the reason why I am repelled from the religions, as they want me to stay on Earth feeding the mosquitoes and experiencing nostalgia about my pre-Heavens life... Unless Jesus is kind enough to remove these memories completely - but the prospect to be lobotomized also does not appeal to me.

In fact the form of Communism you are presenting is the way how now the oligophrens and people with Down syndrome live - as they live in Communism, without thinking much of our economic reality. But if the heavenly things turn this way, and Heavens on earth would have Economy (people work!), then this Economy must be driven by some form of a market and some form of Economic Laws... Any work suggests health and safety problems, any industry suggests pollution and waste processing - so it is unclear would it all be like USA, like USSR or like some other model? Or all would be just riding donkeys and ploughing their pieces of land, like Taleban suggests?

It would more likely be something like the federation of united planets is, but without any faults at all. It is called a Utopia, but without human failings to bring it down.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Jor-el

[MARAB0D]

It would more likely be something like the federation of united planets is, but without any faults at all. It is called a Utopia, but without human failings to bring it down.

Of what we know, any Utopia is so perfect that everyone agrees with it and there is no opposition. This automatically means Utopia must be a Totalitarian state. We already saw autocratic totalitarian states, powered by the belief in Jesus - it was called Dark Ages with Inquisition in control of the perfectness of the citizens.

[Jor-el]

Of what we know, any Utopia is so perfect that everyone agrees with it and there is no opposition. This automatically means Utopia must be a Totalitarian state. We already saw autocratic totalitarian states, powered by the belief in Jesus - it was called Dark Ages with Inquisition in control of the perfectness of the citizens.

Why do think we are all here? this is where the weeds are seperated from the wheat. God never said that he wanted a democracy.

As for it being a totalitarian state, it is merely our human failings that won't allow it to actually be a viable option for humanity. And in this case, it will be ruled by God, not men.

[Lt_Ripley]

I would think that my post would answer that. We won't be in heaven, we will be on earth, we will have responsibilites, not sit around playing harps all day. We will work, we will have Jobs to do and we will also be administrators, that was our birthright right from the beginning. Gods instructions to Adam will be upheld, and we will do what Adam failed to do, be imagers and creators and oversee Gods creation.

We will have physical bodies, that is clearly explained, they will simply different in some fundamental ways. Let's take Jesus resurrected body as an example. He could eat, but he didn't have to. He could walk from place to place, but he didn't have to, He could walk through a door after opening it, but he didn't have to do so, etc, etc...

Draw your conclusions from what the bible talks of him after resurrection.

Marriage will not exist, since procreation will not exist, it will be something we left behind, along with mortality. Besides we'll be too busy for those kinds of distractions... our fundamental existence will change, that is for sure. We will, essentially be as the angels are now in some respects.

yet why be limited to earth ? what about the rest of the universe ? why should one be stuck here and not explore ? it is egotistic to think the earth is the end all and be all.

according to your take on Jesus after the resurrection... it sounds like he was a ghost .. not human form.

not my view of Utopia ...

What jobs will we have to do ? for what purpose ? the earth doesn't need us. the earth can take great care of it's self.

why would we need physical bodies at all ? limited in it's structure.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Lt_Ripley

[Jor-el]

yet why be limited to earth ? what about the rest of the universe ? why should one be stuck here and not explore ? it is egotistic to think the earth is the end all and be all.

Actually, we won't be limited to earth. This will merely be HQ central. Gods administration is universal and as his administrators in the physical universe, we will take up those responsibilites, universally. We could say that one of those Jobs will be embassadorial to other civilizations that may exist. Naturally this is hypothetical, because we are not talking of the earth or universe of the present time. Those will pass away and a new earth and Heavens will be created.

according to your take on Jesus after the resurrection... it sounds like he was a ghost .. not human form.

No, he was no Ghost. He was quite physical, but he also had a glorified body of which his eartly body was a pale reflection. He had capacities that a normal human body does not have. He could simply will himself to any location, or he could walk. Walls were not a hinderence to him, it seems, since he was quite capable of passing right through their molecular structure at will. At least this is what is inferred in the wording used.

not my view of Utopia ...

The view of utopia is not unanimous, merely my own reflections on the issue.

What jobs will we have to do ? for what purpose ? the earth doesn't need us. the earth can take great care of it's self.

We are tending the earth right now, but we aren't exactly doing a good job of it, are we? Killing off entire species is not my view of a good administrators job. It seems that we have to be threatened directly by the results of our actions before we do something about them.

why would we need physical bodies at all ? limited in it's structure.

Our present bodies are limited. The glorified bodies will be much better in all respects. Least of which is that they won't wear out with the passage of time.

[MARAB0D]

Why do think we are all here? this is where the weeds are seperated from the wheat. God never said that he wanted a democracy.

As for it being a totalitarian state, it is merely our human failings that won't allow it to actually be a viable option for humanity. And in this case, it will be ruled by God, not men.

Practice shows that men do not think like God thinks, their logic is different. I cannot see Christians in their masses picking up prostitutes from the streets and making them best friends and companions, while Christ was doing this. These same Christians would go to the paradise you described, and be ruled by god there, and the thinking of this God they do not understand... Would not this cause some opposition to certain God's decisions? As I said, before building such Utopia, all its citizens must first be made uniformly thinking, virtually lobotomized and deprived of their Individuality. All would be like industrially produced chickens, all the same obedient zombies? Even angels were rebelling against God, so if the people in Paradise would be like angels, what stops them from protesting? And what stops God from cracking down on them?

[Jor-el]

Practice shows that men do not think like God thinks, their logic is different. I cannot see Christians in their masses picking up prostitutes from the streets and making them best friends and companions, while Christ was doing this. These same Christians would go to the paradise you described, and be ruled by god there, and the thinking of this God they do not understand... Would not this cause some opposition to certain God's decisions? As I said, before building such Utopia, all its citizens must first be made uniformly thinking, virtually lobotomized and deprived of their Individuality. All would be like industrially produced chickens, all the same obedient zombies? Even angels were rebelling against God, so if the people in Paradise would be like angels, what stops them from protesting? And what stops God from cracking down on them?

But then you forget that we won't be taking our prejudices and failings with us, that is what makes your assumption eroneous.

Nothing at all.... God will do what he has to do, as he has always done.

[MARAB0D]

But then you forget that we won't be taking our prejudices and failings with us, that is what makes your assumption eroneous.

Nothing at all.... God will do what he has to do, as he has always done.

This is the same what I call to lobotomize, the prejudices would be surgically cut off... Everyone would be sinless, right? But even the angels we know of were not sinless - they were having sex with human women and opposing Lord God. Unless, of course, we stop believing in what the Bible says - but then we need to stop believing in paradise too!

[Jor-el]

This is the same what I call to lobotomize, the prejudices would be surgically cut off... Everyone would be sinless, right? But even the angels we know of were not sinless - they were having sex with human women and opposing Lord God. Unless, of course, we stop believing in what the Bible says - but then we need to stop believing in paradise too!

Read again... some sinned, not all followed that path. Those that sinned paid the price. We at least got a 2nd chance.