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MARAB0D

:innocent: What is Heavens?

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MARAB0D

You just cannot get to the discussed contradiction, Jo! If the prejudices of the candidates to Heavens are removed by God, then the non-believers also can go to Heaven, as their disbelief is yet another prejudice, same as hatred to another religions or intolerance to some occupations (like prostitute). This automatically means that it is not necessary to believe in God, but just live a normal life without being a monster in it. The above completely removes all sense in following any religion! Why bother if you still go to Heavens no matter what you believe? Belief itself is a prejudice, and we will not need it in Heavens, as we would have God as President. (I say "we" because according to this your concept, I qualify as well - but I am not interested in re-settling for eternity to some totalitarian formation, I already rebel, before someone makes me a castrated angel!)

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MARAB0D

Christians do not Love Muslims or Jews or Pagans - and this is already not a prejudice but a major sin, as they refuse to follow Jesus and love their enemy (which boils down to them refusing to love some Images of the same God). If this is a minor prejudice, which would be removed in Heavens, then disbelief at all is also such minor prejudice, as disbelief does not even suggest hating other human Images of God.

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Jor-el
You just cannot get to the discussed contradiction, Jo! If the prejudices of the candidates to Heavens are removed by God, then the non-believers also can go to Heaven, as their disbelief is yet another prejudice, same as hatred to another religions or intolerance to some occupations (like prostitute). This automatically means that it is not necessary to believe in God, but just live a normal life without being a monster in it. The above completely removes all sense in following any religion! Why bother if you still go to Heavens no matter what you believe? Belief itself is a prejudice, and we will not need it in Heavens, as we would have God as President. (I say "we" because according to this your concept, I qualify as well - but I am not interested in re-settling for eternity to some totalitarian formation, I already rebel, before someone makes me a castrated angel!)

No, not at all, you won't get in at all if you don't believe and obey in this life. That is why any who do go, will not rebel. They had their opportunity to say no, in this world. All who go are willing.

The only exception to the rule I've ever found, concerns those who never heard the message of christ at all and even those will have had to live thier lives in utmost sincerity, avoiding the desires of the flesh. I wonder if any can actually be found?

You see, God reveals himself to those quite independently of any missionaries who missed that actual spot.

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Jor-el
Christians do not Love Muslims or Jews or Pagans - and this is already not a prejudice but a major sin, as they refuse to follow Jesus and love their enemy (which boils down to them refusing to love some Images of the same God). If this is a minor prejudice, which would be removed in Heavens, then disbelief at all is also such minor prejudice, as disbelief does not even suggest hating other human Images of God.

Who says so? You?

We love all sinners, be they whatever they are and whover they are. But loving the sinner does not mean accepting the sin. Unfortunatrely for many people, they are their sin. they wallow in it, it is natural, because they are out to gratify themselves.

As for who will actually be going to heaven, God is the only one who will judge us, no-one else... it is not my place to approve or disaprove of Gods choices.

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Lt_Ripley
Who says so? You?

We love all sinners, be they whatever they are and whover they are. But loving the sinner does not mean accepting the sin. Unfortunatrely for many people, they are their sin. they wallow in it, it is natural, because they are out to gratify themselves.

As for who will actually be going to heaven, God is the only one who will judge us, no-one else... it is not my place to approve or disaprove of Gods choices.

but you can dictate what is a 'sin' ? would it bum you out to find God doesn't believe in sin ? or religion for that matter ?

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Jor-el
but you can dictate what is a 'sin' ? would it bum you out to find God doesn't believe in sin ? or religion for that matter ?

Actually it would make my heart alot lighter than it is, since I'm as sinful as the next guy.

I try to control it, but it sometimes gets the better of me.

So no, to be honest, it wouldn't bother me at all. Unfortunately, the bible is quite clear on sin. It is ANYTHING that would seperate you from God. Sure we have some common examples of sin, but when one gets to the nitty gritty, it is simply that which would seperate your attention from God himself.

It could be sex, it could be drinking it could be clubbing... it is simply that which holds the priority in your life above God.

And I would also state that what may be sin for one person, may not be so, for another. God is individualistic that way.

Naturally we also have the classical and quite clear examples of Do not kill, etc, etc... but anyone with a head on their shoulder and some sensibility would understand why, those are sins...

Edited by Jor-el

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Sherapy
Read again... some sinned, not all followed that path. Those that sinned paid the price. We at least got a 2nd chance.

how does it benefit you thinking you are sinful?.......

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Jor-el
how does it benefit you thinking you are sinful?.......

It benefits me in some ways and it doesn't in others.

It makes me more aware of myself and my actions and feelings toward others. It sometimes wheighs me down with guilt, but that is simply trickery, because God has forgiven me of sin, as such, I am no longer subject to it.

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Lt_Ripley
It benefits me in some ways and it doesn't in others.

It makes me more aware of myself and my actions and feelings toward others. It sometimes wheighs me down with guilt, but that is simply trickery, because God has forgiven me of sin, as such, I am no longer subject to it.

if God forgives you your sin do you not repeat the behavior again ? would would be the point of God forgiving you if you repeat it ?

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Jor-el
if God forgives you your sin do you not repeat the behavior again ? would would be the point of God forgiving you if you repeat it ?

True enough, but then again, have you actually ever tried it for yourself?

Victory over sin is promised, that is also true but it is not always as easy as that... sometimes that victory can take a lifetime...

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Lt_Ripley
True enough, but then again, have you actually ever tried it for yourself?

Victory over sin is promised, that is also true but it is not always as easy as that... sometimes that victory can take a lifetime...

to change a behavior ? sure . if I fail I don't ask forgiveness from God I remain steadfast to changing it.

like the old saying goes .. stop saying your sorry and stop the sorry behavior.

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Jor-el
to change a behavior ? sure . if I fail I don't ask forgiveness from God I remain steadfast to changing it.

like the old saying goes .. stop saying your sorry and stop the sorry behavior.

I can absolutely agree with that, God says much the same thing to me all the time.

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MARAB0D
Unfortunately, the bible is quite clear on sin. It is ANYTHING that would seperate you from God. Sure we have some common examples of sin, but when one gets to the nitty gritty, it is simply that which would seperate your attention from God himself.

It could be sex, it could be drinking it could be clubbing... it is simply that which holds the priority in your life above God.

And I would also state that what may be sin for one person, may not be so, for another. God is individualistic that way.

Unfortunately what you are saying is very confusing. If a sin has no universal meaning, then a human may reason that any pleasure he draws from doing something is a blessing of God, and it makes his close to God - while the sin must separate instead. Say, a thief gets pleasure of the accomplished work in public transport, and thanks God for sending him a loot... Or a drug addict, which may meet God in person after taking the stuff - would such meeting separate him from God? I can provide a thousand examples of the same sort.

We all know (as we are not pagans and also read the bible) that the sins in it are described precisely - what can be done and what not. Also we know that some actions, like taking drugs, smoking or drinking alcohol, are not prohibited by the Bible at all. Sometimes on the contrary - they are encouraged. Alcoholic Noah is the only man saved during the Flood... Jesus turns water into champagne to please the party... Also, same Jesus admits that people around him call him "a winebibberer" which term in Latin means he was never sober completely, it is the same nickname as was given to Caesar Tiberius. Same Jesus prohibits divorce, but explicitly blesses prostitution, by de-facto insisting that a whore can be closer to God than the believers who were about to pelt her.

Nowhere in the Bible failure to believe in God is named a sin - the sin is believing in OTHER Gods, say in Baal or Golden Calf (Apis). Abraham did not believe in God until met him - and yet was selected as a Father of Hebrews. Saul, the prosecutor of Christians, was for mysterious reasons appointed Christ's ambassador to Earth - same way as KGB colonel Pimen was appointed Orthodox Patriarch. Being looked at like that, Atheists are not sinners at all - as you said, they just have some prejudice, maybe the believers show them such a negative example, that they do not want to have anything in common with God himself after this... Thomas did not believe Jesus was God and resurrected - was it a sin? Jesus himself never expressed a belief that he was God

as he was only worshiping his Father, our Creator and thus our Father too.

The above makes the religions to be just a set of human prejudices and beliefs, and if we also allow for sin to be undetermined, then they lose their sense at all, as how someone can know what makes him closer to or farther from God? Each one then may proclaim himself a saint or a Prophet, and believe he goes to Heavens alone, leaving all other mongrels to suffer in Hell. :)

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Lt_Ripley
I can absolutely agree with that, God says much the same thing to me all the time.

so if God actually speaks to you can you prove it ? if not you can't claim that as factual.

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Jor-el
so if God actually speaks to you can you prove it ? if not you can't claim that as factual.

I don't have to prove it, it is a statement that was inherently directed at myself, not to you. God does speak to me. But it is a relationship that is personal and intimate. The fact that your words hit a chord of agreement in me, does not mean I was trying to get something past you.

Actually God would take pleasure in speaking to all of us, if we were all willing to listen. I simply am willing to listen.

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Jor-el
Unfortunately what you are saying is very confusing. If a sin has no universal meaning, then a human may reason that any pleasure he draws from doing something is a blessing of God, and it makes his close to God - while the sin must separate instead. Say, a thief gets pleasure of the accomplished work in public transport, and thanks God for sending him a loot... Or a drug addict, which may meet God in person after taking the stuff - would such meeting separate him from God? I can provide a thousand examples of the same sort.

We all know (as we are not pagans and also read the bible) that the sins in it are described precisely - what can be done and what not. Also we know that some actions, like taking drugs, smoking or drinking alcohol, are not prohibited by the Bible at all. Sometimes on the contrary - they are encouraged. Alcoholic Noah is the only man saved during the Flood... Jesus turns water into champagne to please the party... Also, same Jesus admits that people around him call him "a winebibberer" which term in Latin means he was never sober completely, it is the same nickname as was given to Caesar Tiberius. Same Jesus prohibits divorce, but explicitly blesses prostitution, by de-facto insisting that a whore can be closer to God than the believers who were about to pelt her.

Nowhere in the Bible failure to believe in God is named a sin - the sin is believing in OTHER Gods, say in Baal or Golden Calf (Apis). Abraham did not believe in God until met him - and yet was selected as a Father of Hebrews. Saul, the prosecutor of Christians, was for mysterious reasons appointed Christ's ambassador to Earth - same way as KGB colonel Pimen was appointed Orthodox Patriarch. Being looked at like that, Atheists are not sinners at all - as you said, they just have some prejudice, maybe the believers show them such a negative example, that they do not want to have anything in common with God himself after this... Thomas did not believe Jesus was God and resurrected - was it a sin? Jesus himself never expressed a belief that he was God

as he was only worshiping his Father, our Creator and thus our Father too.

The above makes the religions to be just a set of human prejudices and beliefs, and if we also allow for sin to be undetermined, then they lose their sense at all, as how someone can know what makes him closer to or farther from God? Each one then may proclaim himself a saint or a Prophet, and believe he goes to Heavens alone, leaving all other mongrels to suffer in Hell. :)

Accuracy is not one of your strongest traits...

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Lt_Ripley
I don't have to prove it, it is a statement that was inherently directed at myself, not to you. God does speak to me. But it is a relationship that is personal and intimate. The fact that your words hit a chord of agreement in me, does not mean I was trying to get something past you.

Actually God would take pleasure in speaking to all of us, if we were all willing to listen. I simply am willing to listen.

ok. agreed. God speaks to all of us. yet God tells me things you don't with your opinion of God agree with .... where does that leave the subject ?

Edited by Lt_Ripley

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Jor-el
ok. agreed. God speaks to all of us. yet God tells me things you don't with your opinion of God agree with .... where does that leave the subject ?

I don't see a problem with it, at this time... God sometimes takes years to convince us of a particular course of action and only he knows the why to it.

In effect I don't really have to understand it.

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MARAB0D
I don't see a problem with it, at this time... God sometimes takes years to convince us of a particular course of action and only he knows the why to it.

In effect I don't really have to understand it.

Unfortunately this your personal God is all what you have. There is absolutely no way to establish that this your personal God exists outside yourself and talks to the others same way he talks to you. This is what me and others are trying to tell you. You want heaven - YOUR God tells you what it is, and you sure would be like Robinson Crusoe in it, because each other would have something else. There is no God in this world, how come you, an educated person, fail to understand this? God only can be inside us, not outside like the "president" you described.

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MysticOnion
Unfortunately this your personal God is all what you have. There is absolutely no way to establish that this your personal God exists outside yourself and talks to the others same way he talks to you. This is what me and others are trying to tell you. You want heaven - YOUR God tells you what it is, and you sure would be like Robinson Crusoe in it, because each other would have something else. There is no God in this world, how come you, an educated person, fail to understand this? God only can be inside us, not outside like the "president" you described.

Thats what divination is for - to fathom the word of God via metaphor and symbolism. If God is real he should be able to speak to you somehow. Well how about via astrology and tarot reading and other forms of divination - these methods were used to translate the word of God into something we can understand. People seem to have forgotten these ancient methods. Prophets didn't literally speak with a higher being, they used astrology to interpret the higher beings (planets and stars) messages. Stars and planets are higher than us aren't they? You got to learn what they thought God actually was. The Sun at midday was "Most High" Get it?

In the past they assigned personalities to tell the stories of the Gods - the people thought the personalities were the Gods themselves. The ancient Kings and Pharaohs of Egypt WERE their Gods, and in those days Gods were not invisible, they were objective beings. The so called Pharaoh or God was probably also a Shaman having gone through several rituals as administered by the priesthood which we commonly now know as the Freemasons. It wasn't called that back then but its mutated into that... and other societies which follow the same rituals.

Yes in those days Gods were very very real indeed.

In these days you worship an imaginary being, there is no objective counterpart to it. The ancient system is incomplete. You have no Gods, you have no real Kings or Pharaohs and the ancient system is disappearing into nothing.

When you read Tarot or the Zodiac - its no longer divining the will of God, its telling your fortune or your own personal future in the stars - this is a watered- down version of what it was supposed to be.

People don't believe in a real God anymore, they believe in something imaginary which is non existent in the real world but for which they hold a belief anyway because one day soon judgement day will come and they better be ready.

If I wanted to have peace in the world and not have everyone under an opressive religion I might invent a judgement day as well, a day that will NEVER come.

There is a tribe in Africa who worships Prince Philip as a God. Some representatives of that tribe came to Britain to ask him when he would be coming back to them. He said "It is very cold in Britian right now but when it is very warm I will return"

So now they wait for that very warm day to come - but the fact of it is.. it will NEVER come. Just like your judgement day.

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MARAB0D
Thats what divination is for - to fathom the word of God via metaphor and symbolism. If God is real he should be able to speak to you somehow. Well how about via astrology and tarot reading and other forms of divination - these methods were used to translate the word of God into something we can understand. People seem to have forgotten these ancient methods. Prophets didn't literally speak with a higher being, they used astrology to interpret the higher beings (planets and stars) messages. Stars and planets are higher than us aren't they? You got to learn what they thought God actually was. The Sun at midday was "Most High" Get it?

In the past they assigned personalities to tell the stories of the Gods - the people thought the personalities were the Gods themselves. The ancient Kings and Pharaohs of Egypt WERE their Gods, and in those days Gods were not invisible, they were objective beings. The so called Pharaoh or God was probably also a Shaman having gone through several rituals as administered by the priesthood which we commonly now know as the Freemasons. It wasn't called that back then but its mutated into that... and other societies which follow the same rituals.

Yes in those days Gods were very very real indeed.

In these days you worship an imaginary being, there is no objective counterpart to it. The ancient system is incomplete. You have no Gods, you have no real Kings or Pharaohs and the ancient system is disappearing into nothing.

When you read Tarot or the Zodiac - its no longer divining the will of God, its telling your fortune or your own personal future in the stars - this is a watered- down version of what it was supposed to be.

People don't believe in a real God anymore, they believe in something imaginary which is non existent in the real world but for which they hold a belief anyway because one day soon judgement day will come and they better be ready.

If I wanted to have peace in the world and not have everyone under an opressive religion I might invent a judgement day as well, a day that will NEVER come.

There is a tribe in Africa who worships Prince Philip as a God. Some representatives of that tribe came to Britain to ask him when he would be coming back to them. He said "It is very cold in Britian right now but when it is very warm I will return"

So now they wait for that very warm day to come - but the fact of it is.. it will NEVER come. Just like your judgement day.

Why did you write all this? Which my "judgement day"? All I am trying to do is trying to understand how the 21st century people visualise Heavens. I am aware that the bible was written by those who thought sky being solid and God physically residing on that solid surface of Heavens and watching downwards what we do in our bedrooms. But the idea of afterlife seems so tempting and attractive, that those who are afraid to die still keep adhered to it, despite all their information comes from that solid sly book. Same as your Astrology - as for Tarot, they are not ancient at all, but rather medieval, being a by-product of Alchemy and witchcraft. Neither are needed for talking to God or for inspiration, as they are simply objects of meditation, same as a dog's kennel can be (or camera-obscura for this case).

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MysticOnion
Why did you write all this? Which my "judgement day"? All I am trying to do is trying to understand how the 21st century people visualise Heavens. I am aware that the bible was written by those who thought sky being solid and God physically residing on that solid surface of Heavens and watching downwards what we do in our bedrooms. But the idea of afterlife seems so tempting and attractive, that those who are afraid to die still keep adhered to it, despite all their information comes from that solid sly book. Same as your Astrology - as for Tarot, they are not ancient at all, but rather medieval, being a by-product of Alchemy and witchcraft. Neither are needed for talking to God or for inspiration, as they are simply objects of meditation, same as a dog's kennel can be (or camera-obscura for this case).

Ah.. its a good job there was Dark Ages with no records isn't it? Otherwise I'd be able to show you how Tarot came from Egypt and Astrology. In truth it all came from Egypt. They are all very very ancient arts - which thanks to the Dark Ages were forgotten and lost and then revived - of course people didn't actually know what they were for. Tarot comes from the Ark of the Covenant. You know that camera obscura they passed off as a magickal object from God?

So, cos the paper trail ends in medieval times doesn't mean it wasn't practised a long time before that. It was practised and it was means of finding out what God said. It wasn't to do with fortune telling at all. The runes were the same. The God they were on about was the objective God they thought really existed. There isn't a real God anymore that all vanished when people came out of the Dark Ages. The old Gods were the only ones who spoke to the people. The prophets weren't talking to the invisible God they were talking with the objective one - the one they made up. Get it?

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MARAB0D
Ah.. its a good job there was Dark Ages with no records isn't it? Otherwise I'd be able to show you how Tarot came from Egypt and Astrology. In truth it all came from Egypt. They are all very very ancient arts - which thanks to the Dark Ages were forgotten and lost and then revived - of course people didn't actually know what they were for. Tarot comes from the Ark of the Covenant. You know that camera obscura they passed off as a magickal object from God?

So, cos the paper trail ends in medieval times doesn't mean it wasn't practised a long time before that. It was practised and it was means of finding out what God said. It wasn't to do with fortune telling at all. The runes were the same. The God they were on about was the objective God they thought really existed. There isn't a real God anymore that all vanished when people came out of the Dark Ages. The old Gods were the only ones who spoke to the people. The prophets weren't talking to the invisible God they were talking with the objective one - the one they made up. Get it?

Dark Ages were not dark because of the absence of records - in fact they have plenty. They were dark because of educational issues, it was our lowest point in development, in which we lost practically all scientific achievements of Antiquity. Meanwhile we know that Tarot came from Italy, and comparatively recently. We also know that they were never mentioned in connection to Egypt. Where the Ford car was in 18th century? According to your logic it must be existing then too, maybe even in the Ark of Covenant too. As for camera-obscura - it originated from the holes, the servants were drilling in the walls to watch their masters in the bedroom.

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Jor-el
Unfortunately this your personal God is all what you have. There is absolutely no way to establish that this your personal God exists outside yourself and talks to the others same way he talks to you. This is what me and others are trying to tell you. You want heaven - YOUR God tells you what it is, and you sure would be like Robinson Crusoe in it, because each other would have something else. There is no God in this world, how come you, an educated person, fail to understand this? God only can be inside us, not outside like the "president" you described.

And why would I have the need to prove something so evident to myself... if you want proof, go out and look for it yourself. God may even help you find him...

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MARAB0D
And why would I have the need to prove something so evident to myself... if you want proof, go out and look for it yourself. God may even help you find him...

Absolutely correct! There is no need to prove anything at all. The burden of proof is only on those of us, who insist that their personal God is the same as the God of the others, as in this case God is seen as objectively existing - but when we understand that God only exists subjectively, inside us, then no proofs are needed. Exactly as you said - go and try yourself. Personal concept of god cannot be shared without raping someone else's "inside". We all have Free Will, and all can equally talk to God - so when we accept someone' else's God we lose our Free Will, and all our "sins" fall onto the one whose God is accepted. Just look what Christ did - he came, imposed HIS own vision of god on the others... and had to die for THEIR sins. because he took away their Free Will and thus became responsible for all what they do - Free Will is our choice of actions, our motivation, so if we act how Christ told us, then the responsibility for our actions is not ours, it is HIS.

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