In re Ouija, the impasses of pro and contra

[oslove]

Here is the list at this point in time of posters who contributed at least 30 posts to the thread "To all Ouija board users..."

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...who&t=98623

Who posted in: To all Ouija board users...

Poster and Number of Posts

JustNormal 155

IronGhost 147

Barek Halfhand 80

WhatTha? 49

Please Explain 41

She-ra 38

boorite 36

Paranormalcy 32

What I like to do is to ask the proponents and opponents above of the Ouija Board and also anyone else interested what they are at loggerheads on.

So, tell me pros and contras, is it about the existence of spirits specifically the kinds which can be accessed by way of the Ouija Board?

This question brings in an ascendant question, namely: what is a spirit in regard to the kinds accessible with the Ouija Board?

This thread will be very informative to people like myself who is curious with a rational intelligent curiosity about what the Ouija Board is relevant for to thinking people like the proponents as also the opponents and myself a student of paranormal phenomena.

So, what are you waiting for, proponents and opponents of the Ouija Board?

Speak up.

Oslove

[Paranormalcy]

I'd just like to note that although I have only 30+ posts in this thread, if you counted total number of words in posts rather than number of posts ("lol" etc.), I think things would be more even - never let it be said I didn't try to contribute. =)

I'm not sure I agree with the characterization of "loggerheads" here, but I'll share my thoughts.

I place absolutely NO attribution of anything "paranormal" on or in any physical component of talking boards themselves (nor similar forms of automatism).

Whatever takes place during the use of a board, it has little to nothing to do with the material components other than providing a handy and explicitly designed device (traveler and alphanumeric characters to point to) to facilitate (make possible or able) "communication" with the traveler, the players and what they know of how a board works or has been said or written to work - much like a hypothetical chess or checkerboard (or any other game) merely provides the platform and visual suggestion of structure (colors, squares and lines), which facilitates "gaming" by use of playing pieces, the players and what they know of how the game works or has been said or written to work - the comparison is pretty much identical.

It is not even the playing pieces themselves, but the players' own ability to reason, decide, think abstractly, plan and anticipate, that constitutes the act OF gaming, in the active sense, a game that is being played right now, the activity itself. When there are no players present, although we commonly still call these collective/combined components "a game", as a noun(n.), the board and pieces actually cease to be part of a game(v.), in the verb sense, meaning a currently proceeding competition between players. Neither the board nor the pieces "contain" a game(v.) itself, neither do they house the thoughts, plans, reasoning or even victories, defeats or ties of the players, nor the previous games - they are pieces of chipboard and plastic, completely inert, immobile and without sentience or intent - they simply sit there, to be used or stored away as decided by players.

To me, the soul or perhaps spirit, is an ethereal concept which may or may not have actual "objective" validity and reality, but whatever it is, if it exists at all, it doesn't get "stuck" and you can't just throw yourself on the floor and kick your feet like a toddler and "refuse to go" and remain somehow somewhat interactive with the physical world. If souls or spirits exist and do anything upon death, they immediately proceed to their next natural step, whatever that is, be it spiritual development or ceasing to be - there is no indefinitely lengthy period, no waiting around or "haunting" people or places.

The one caveat here is that it might be possible to ALSO, at this same instant, or possibly slightly before, appear to one or two other people, to cause a sending or apparition, or for someone to satisfy their own curiosity and concern by checking up on a few people, or, on the outside, to leave some sort of presumably psychic "residue" or impression in the area. Past these sorts of things, I simply have seen/read/heard/experienced no compelling evidence for the hypothesis of survival of the spirit after death, at least survival in this case meaning in a way consciously understandable and meaningful to the living.

While I concede I think it's hard to argue that "ghost phenomena" does not happen at all, I do not believe in spirits, demons or what-have-you as independent, willful entities that are self-motivated - for things besides possible "residual hauntings", what I see as the most likely possible hypothesis for ghosts' nature involves possibly errant psi perceptivity and manifestations of witnesses, along with projection of psychological and emotional features into a sort of psychic automaton, thoughtform or tulpa, which may then seem to take on a life of their own, with apparent intelligence and sentient, behavior.

I believe 99% of all talking board use in history for all cultures and people has been due to the ideomotor effect, when it was not a hoax, intentional "pushing it" and pranks. I believe that in some of this, it may be possible that one or more users and their group may somehow tap into, access or manifest features of an individual or group or collective dynamic such as anxiety, intent, mood, knowledge, unconscious drives and desires, negativity and aggressiveness, as well as love, goodwill, charity, concern and hope - the best of us, and the worst of us.

Essentially we are talking to ourselves (or others), singly or as a pair or group, the "entities" contacted via the board being composed of various parts of ourselves and our thoughts and beliefs, optimism and pessimism, in infinite combinations in patterns and reasons or causes which couldn't even be guessed at - spirit guides, higher selves, totems or spirit animals, ghosts, demons, aliens or anything else all being "artificial" constructs built from our own psychic materials, filtered through our perceptions and thoughts and physiological responses and tendencies.

All experiences with "spirits", with or without the board, are a result of our own psychological and emotional makeup, life experiences, expectations and attitudes, including the apparent manifestations of actual paranormal effects such as telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition (dubious on this) and psychokinetic, this last one being present, along with some others, in what I suspect to be the cause and explanation for "poltergeist" phenomena and effects and perhaps hauntings with similarities.

Regarding mediums, sensitives, psychics and other new age, occult and miscellaneous people who claim to be able to see, hear, otherwise sense and talk to "spirits", even eliminating probably the vast majority with mundane explanations, and even more if you were liberal enough to allow explaining away some claims as misidentified psychic manifestations rather than that of spirits, there remains a small percent, similar to that of UFO cases, which defy even vaguely UNconventional explanation, and remain firmly entrenched in what is logically an impossible position of existence, of no other typical theory or possibility fitting the spirit hypothesis. For these I can only admit my ignorance and inability to satisfactorily describe in mundane terms. This doesn't mean I believe these cases are indeed spirits, only that we presently are unable to address them, not only empirically and scientifically, but even with "pseudoscience".

I do agree that caution and judgment should be used with talking boards, especially for children, teens and those with various instabilities, emotional and/or mental, gullibility, anger, resentment, fear or negative outlooks. In general, youngsters are not ready to confront themselves (and each other) on a potentially unfiltered level, especially since around these ages they will likely tend to strongly exhibit rebellion, aggressiveness, fear, destructiveness and other variations of "a dark streak", their more visceral developing features. In some cases, both with youngsters and some adults, I have no doubt actual psychological, at least temporary, damage has been done, perhaps even resulting in trauma or various mental or emotional issues or afflictions - while these are rare, those at risk are taking unwise and unnecessary chances - but all of these things, the worst experiences and tales, are all still quite human in their causes, even the rare few that might even appear to some to meet some criteria for "demons" or such.

Edited July 25, 2009 by Paranormalcy

[oslove]

Thanks, Paranormalcy, for your reply.

I understand that you and your group have engaged in Ouija sessions and have found that it does not work, not in the sense that you get messages from socalled spirits that communicate anything intelligent or reasonable.

I am not sure now where I read it, but one person alone can use the Ouija board all by himself.

Have you tried using it all by yourself, and what are the impressions you got from this solitary activity?

That is one question.

My question in the OP (what does OP really stand for, original post that gets the thread started, namely, the #1 post? or what?) is what is a spirit in regard to the Ouija board (now just Ouija meaning Ouija board)?

Would you accept this definition from yours truly of what is a spirit in regard to Ouija, as follows:

A spirit in regard to Ouija is an invisible being that can communicate with humans by means of Ouija.

My other question in the OP is:

Are there such spirits as defined above?

I get the impression from your post here that it is your certain (sure) knowledge that there are no such spirits which communicate with humans by means of Ouija.

If there is any communication at all, it is among the participants of Ouija themselves or by a person with himself doing Ouija all alone by himself?

Do I get you correctly?

Oslove

[Paranormalcy]

I hate always being the first one to answer these things, but I'm here and nobody else is posting, so I'll do it anyway - sorry, make sure to just tell me if you want me to hold off anytime.

I understand that you and your group have engaged in Ouija sessions and have found that it does not work, not in the sense that you get messages from socalled spirits that communicate anything intelligent or reasonable.

The other members of my group's opinions are not known to me with certainty so I can't collectively say "we found" the board doesn't work. We got results, many, of various kinds, and with varying coherence and accuracy, with many different combinations of people, but I'm sure were deep down, approaching the sessions in somewhat, maybe even vastly different ways. *I* personally arrived tentatively at my conclusions as our sessions drew to a close after our few years, basing them on my personal experiences and observations of the other people and the behavior of the board, compared to other stories and known available theories on Ouija boards and psychology.

One of us was more into astral projection and involved psycho-mythological interface between the individual and the collective, occultism, herbalism, mysticism, tarot and hermetic and ceremonial magic, while another was more into UFOs/aliens/abductions, shamanism and wicca, spirit guides and past lives and karma and channeling, while my tastes ran most strongly to ghosts/haunting/poltergeists, parapsychology/skeptical research on psi/psychic powers, dreams, automatic writing and Ouija and strange anomalies and thoughtforms, with a solid side interest in alien abduction and its impact on individuals and society - we were all very interested and/or versed in psychology, and all dabbled in hypnosis, experimenting on each other. Two other somewhat irregular members of our group included an outgoing, heavy-bass loving alcoholic, interested in but scared of the Ouija board and presenting a false-Christian front, and an abrasive, ill-matured/socialized guy who no doubt had deep thoughts and considerations and interests, but tended only to address mainstream topics and cliches with the exception of attempting to split and name the two parts of his personality, and who I didn't get along with.

Lastly, for the most part, we all also played tabletop role-playing games, watched sci-fi and horror movies and shows (X-Files) etc. and went to the local New Age bookstore and sometimes attended the owner's Rosicrucianesque church there. So if one were to examine my groups' various interests, inclinations and other accompanying hobbies... I'm not sure exactly what the ultimate findings would be.

I believe the UFO guy probably has a somewhat firm belief in some kind of spiritualistic view, ghosts/spirits of the deceased, negative spirits, maybe demons, maybe astral plane, auras, etc, while the occultist seems to view everything in terms of psycho-mytho-elemental archetypal forces best elaborated on with alchemical terminology. I think our alcoholic may have never really thought about spirits and stuff in a conscious, deliberate way, but simply "inherited" his views from his family and environment, but seemed to put stock in the spirit world and paranormal. The name-my-sides guy actually claims to be a non-church-attending independent Baptist of all things, interested in religion and Bible prophecy, and is a registered member of RaptureReady.Com. And you know my view(s).

I am not sure now where I read it, but one person alone can use the Ouija board all by himself.

Have you tried using it all by yourself, and what are the impressions you got from this solitary activity?

It is uncommon but definitely possible for some people of the right temperament, mindset, something - I've read some psychics use the boards as a tool to keep them "in practice" and can use them alone. I have my own ideas as to how and why solo use is possible, but I still think it is remarkable, as it seems to me the ideomotor function's operation is fueled by the interplay of 2+ users' neuro-muscular impulses, and their conscious-but-unintentional directing of the traveler.

We all tried it and none of us could use the board alone, even the "strongest" users who got the best results with two or more people - absolutely no movement.

My question in the OP (what does OP really stand for, original post that gets the thread started, namely, the #1 post? or what?) is what is a spirit in regard to the Ouija board (now just Ouija meaning Ouija board)?

Would you accept this definition from yours truly of what is a spirit in regard to Ouija, as follows:

A spirit in regard to Ouija is an invisible being that can communicate with humans by means of Ouija.

I use OP to mean either Original Post or Original Poster, as the need suits me. If we had to use standard terminology, such as referring to the apparent board personalities and communicants as "spirits", I'd generally agree with your definition with two caveats:

1. Not always invisible. Images of figures in shadows and even grain patterns in wooden doors were occasionally "seen" by some group members, and one member who was "slain in the spirit" in his church one day, "knocked" down on the floor in an ecstatic state, reported that when he regained consciousness, he actually saw his spirit guide, completely solidly, in the middle of church, standing there like another member of the congregation (invisible to everyone else of course), her features clear and in accordance with the mental image he had developed of her.

2. Not a being? Because of my present conclusions, I have trouble with the use of the word "being" here, which for me has the meaning a fellow, independent, self-aware, social entity, but if we take the standard, commonly accepted definition that most people recognize and repeat, or if we can generalize "being" into meaning "any apparent semblance of a single cohesive intelligence", then I'll concede.

My other question in the OP is:

Are there such spirits as defined above?

Since my addressing of this same issue above also defined this for the sake of that question, I'd have to say yes, from my generalized entity view.

I get the impression from your post here that it is your certain (sure) knowledge that there are no such spirits which communicate with humans by means of Ouija.

If there is any communication at all, it is among the participants of Ouija themselves or by a person with himself doing Ouija all alone by himself?

Do I get you correctly?

I dislike to qualify things as "certain" and "know" in any arena other than purely empirical subjects, so it is my very strong, and to me, rational, well-reasoned and supported opinion that there are no spirits of the deceased that communicate with humans, via board or any other means, and any and all results obtained are from the users, with the outside possibility of the influence of psi, such as telepathy or clairvoyance. The possible exception to this is the concept of the "thoughtform" or tulpa, an usually unconsciously created psychic automaton which can present seemingly sentient behavior and intent but which I believe to be more of a reactive, primitive mass of dominant and random thoughts, fears and emotions - a malfunctioning robot with faulty or incomplete programming.

[oslove]

Thanks, Paranormalcy, for your reply.

I am myself learning things from your posts.

Thee are so far 109 views of this thread, so that should be an encouragement for us to continue our discussion.

I invite all people who have written about Ouija in this forum to come forward and give your opinions about Ouija, whether in positive acceptance or in negative rejection of this practice and the intellectual underpinnings supporting it.

Paranormalcy, from what you have experienced with Ouija, can you say that Ouija is an observable phenomenon, event, wherein the participants in a séance or if one person is doing it all by himself are active agents or agent: they are doing, namely, enacting the event.

And they use material things: the Ouija board and a pointer called planchette.

So, from your own experience there is such a phenomenon or event called if I may the Ouija phenomenon.

And it is enacted by humans using the Ouija board and a pointer, to obtain answers to their questions addressed to spirits which they think are accessible by way of the Ouija.

The most important action of the participants is each one touching with a finger the planchette and asking a question, then the planchette will move as the fingers of the participants are placed on it, proceeding to one letter and to another letter and still another on and on, by which precess words are spelt out which are read by the participants as answer to their question.

Now, Paranormalcy, you maintain that the movement of the planchette is due to the force from the fingers of the participants, even though they are not conscious of themselves exerting any force on the planchette, still the fact is that they have their fingers touching the planchette.

That is called the ideomotor effect.

And it is not due to any influence from any spirits.

Do I get you correctly?

Oslove

[CausticGnostic]

If "spirits" had physical finger to place on a planchette, they could probably move it, but since "spirits" don't have physical fingers, how could they possibly move it? It's the real living people whon are touching the planchette who "impart" the movement, unconsciously, to it. that's what the ideomotor effect is. If "spirits" could work the board without living people, they'd do so. But they don't. Ergo, the Ouija board doesn't contact or communicate with disembodied "spirits."

By the way, Paranormalcy, I wish I'd been a member of your Ouija group. I'd've been the one interested in beer, books, and babes (definitely not in that order)!

[oslove]

The formulation of the term ideomotor effect is not necessarily the proof that there is an ideomotor effect exerted by the participants of Ouija.

How do the people who claim the existence of the ideomotor effect demonstrate in a laboratory setting with electronic equipment and scanner the unconscious exertion of participants in a Ouija with their fingers on the planchette?

Besides I seem to have read testimonies stating that even when no fingers are placed on the planchette, it moves just the same.

I am not a proponent of Ouija but just playing the devil's advocate.

Oslove

[CausticGnostic]

Yes, I've heard stories about the planchette moving by itself, too, but, as a die-hard skeptic, I'd have to see it to believe it. Peronsally, I think those stories are apocryphal. And your argument against the ideomotor effect could just as easily, and with better force, be turned around to force some proof of the existence and activity of disembodied "spirits." In the absence of such evidence, however, the more mundane explanation ought to be adhered to . . . unless, of course, all possibilties are considered to be on a par (which I dispute).

[Paranormalcy]

I hope you're right that people are interested in this thread and I also would like to know what other people, including oslove the OP, thinks!

Paranormalcy, from what you have experienced with Ouija, can you say that Ouija is an observable phenomenon, event, wherein the participants in a séance or if one person is doing it all by himself are active agents or agent: they are doing, namely, enacting the event.

And they use material things: the Ouija board and a pointer called planchette.

I am not entirely sure I grasp the first question. The physical manipulation and use of the Ouija is an observable activity (the people who ask questions with hands on the traveler which moves around on the board), and if you believe either the ideomotor effect or spirit communication, since both are considered phenomena, they are technically observable in their practice, abstractly - not of course in any sort of "blue sparks and glowing eyes" way.

An original use of the term "planchette" has been argued to refer specifically to a larger-than-hand sized wedge/spade/heart shaped piece of wood resembling today's Ouija indicator, with (usually) small wheels on the bottom and a hole in the center top - the user (usually one though others could also touch the planchette) would rest their hand on the platform, with a pencil, which extended from above down through the hole and to the paper underneath the device, held between their fingers, sort of like a Spirograph with a hand-rest. This is actually a somewhat more modernized form of automatic writing, allowing the user to have less strain and cramping while producing writing in pencil. I used to refer to the traveler or indicator or pointer as a planchette when writing and posting about Ouija, but too many occasions of people, even those that used a board, asking what a planchette was, caused me to abandon the term for the most part, for the sake of clarity.

But yes, talking boards consist of an indicator or pointer, often referred to as the planchette, including by the makers, and the board itself, decorated at its most basic, with letters and numbers and a few simple icons or words.

So, from your own experience there is such a phenomenon or event called if I may the Ouija phenomenon.

And it is enacted by humans using the Ouija board and a pointer, to obtain answers to their questions addressed to spirits which they think are accessible by way of the Ouija.

Absolutely such a phenomenon exists - it is the nature that is in question. Obviously it depends on the users' beliefs and intent - we were told in a few sessions we were talking to the Moon or aliens or totem animals, or even another living person in another state, also using the board at the same time, and as I am an example, there are also people that don't believe they are addressing spirits at all, but you knew all that, I just wanted to formalize it.

The most important action of the participants is each one touching with a finger the planchette and asking a question, then the planchette will move as the fingers of the participants are placed on it, proceeding to one letter and to another letter and still another on and on, by which precess words are spelt out which are read by the participants as answer to their question.

Each session and group will be different but this is essentially correct, I believe. Our group occasionally had a "scribe" or transcriptionist, including myself, who sat apart, asked questions and called out and/or wrote down the results; we also used a micro-tape recorder a few times but that tape has broken unfortunately and I'm not skilled enough to repair it so I can transcribe a session. Probably the thing that varies most from inside each and among multiple groups is how many people have their hands on the traveler at one time, how many hands they're using, whether a single on is right or left, and if it is the partial hand, whole hand or only a finger or two - we didn't keep track of who used what when so though I think these different configurations had some bearing on the results, I couldn't elaborate with any confidence. I also believe there was strong evidence in my observations of our group that the person asking the question and his interest, attitude, belief and whether he was using the board at that time or not, influenced if not almost determined the answers.

Now, Paranormalcy, you maintain that the movement of the planchette is due to the force from the fingers of the participants, even though they are not conscious of themselves exerting any force on the planchette, still the fact is that they have their fingers touching the planchette.

That is called the ideomotor effect.

And it is not due to any influence from any spirits.

With some qualifying notes, from my understanding, this is correct. Discarding fraudulent results ("you're pushing it!"), the force of the fingers, which is created by this unconscious physiological effect, upon the traveler, seems to be basically imperceptible to human senses from either the users or observers and is only evident by the resulting movement of the traveler itself, seemingly on its own without conscious intent from the users.

However, I do not believe the ideomotor effect, as I understand the common definition, satisfactorily explains all aspects of this movement as being unconscious neural impulses, because the movement should be more or less random without conscious, willful guidance, and also because more than one person is exerting this influence on the traveler, and the two effects presumably should at multiple points, conflict with each other - which is what I think is at work when the traveler fails to move at all, or only leadenly, or produces gibberish, "anchors" between a few letters or lands on blank areas.

I believe there is an additional component, whose basic psychology definition and term escapes me at the moment, but asserts a kind of "conscious-blind-collaboration" or direction, where although the users are not actively physically directing the traveler, they are aware of the movement, direction, current letters being selected and previous words and phrases and their meanings, and unintentionally "anticipate" the next letter or even word, accidentally exerting semi-conscious force, overriding the comparably weaker ideomotor effect of the other person, and/or detecting and joining other such forces and direction from the others, if it seems coherent and falls in line with what they find acceptable, consolidating most or all of the effects and force into very specific and accurate selections and coherent words and sentences which also build upon previous parts of the session's results. I believe this is why the board was primarily marketed as an activity to be placed on the knees of a seated boy and girl facing each other - to create an intimate and highly charged psycho-sexual and neural environment, presumably intensifying this effect interplay.

Also, if our group is any indication, some users, especially those well familiar with using the board, will even verbally and consciously complete selections or even entire words for the traveler, such as "Ah, its going to S" and "p...r...o... - it's proud." They then either wait or replace the traveler in the middle of the board to await the next letter.

In my opinion, it is correct that board results are in no way due to spirits, unless we use a broader, non-standard technical definition (rather than connotation) of "spirits" as mentioned in a previous post.

The formulation of the term ideomotor effect is not necessarily the proof that there is an ideomotor effect exerted by the participants of Ouija.

Agreed. Invention or use of a term does not constitute proof - scientifically validated and/or accepted evidence does.

How do the people who claim the existence of the ideomotor effect demonstrate in a laboratory setting with electronic equipment and scanner the unconscious exertion of participants in a Ouija with their fingers on the planchette?

I would presume it is/was done in the manner you just described - they gathered and used the board, making whatever scientific observations they were able to using their own senses and equipment, as well as applying the scientific method of testing for sustainable repeatability and accuracy to see if the board met the proper criteria to indicate possible explanations other than the mundane. A likely example I believe I've given before, which my group as well as others have been documented to have used, is the simple "blindfold" method, more convincing if the board is rotated randomly between the blindfolded users before the session, which produces mininscule if any, even liberally viewed, possible interpretations of remotely coherent results - suggesting if not proving that even if not the ideomotor effect, there is no evidence to support any paranormal means for the results of a talking board,. and in fact evidence to the contrary.

Besides I seem to have read testimonies stating that even when no fingers are placed on the planchette, it moves just the same.

I have read a few such rare claims and honestly believe these to be pure fiction, either intentionally or as a result of heightened anxiety and memory confabulation, misidentification or unsubstantiated third-hand reports.

Edited July 26, 2009 by Paranormalcy

[oslove]

Dear Paranormalcy:

I think we have us two got the physical observable aspects of the Ouija phenomenon correctly in the big picture.

The explanation for the physical phenomenon of the pointer (yes, pointer is a more plain word for planchette with the same meaning) moving while fingers are in contact with it is the socalled ideomotor effect.

This explanation seems to be satisfactory to investigators propounding the ideomotor effect.

It is based on unconscious physiological exertion from participants of the Ouija, or psychologico-physiological exertion.

The matter however will not rest there for the proponents of spirits being behind the Ouija phenomenon.

They will tell you that even though granting though not conceding that the ideomotor effect can explain the movement of the pointer on the unconscious psychologico-physiological exertion from the participants, this does not rule out the spirits influencing the participants to unconsciously enact the psychologico-physiological exertion, etc., etc., etc.

So, spirits are still in.

Now I am asking everyone here if any institution with money to spare will finance a very well controlled examination with all the laboratory equipment and instrumentation to check on the ideomotor effect, with video and audio recording of every step in the investigation and experiments whatever.

I guess no institution with money to spare will advance the cash.

Why? Because if I may be gross, there is no money to be made from the findings of the investigation and experimentation, except to satisfy the curiosity of people like myself as to the facts involved in the Ouija phenomenon, whether in the ultimate analysis it is simply and exclusively ideomotor effect and period, or it is spirits whatever accessible to participants in Ouija by way of the Ouija board and pointer and oral addresses to the spirits whatever.

I will at this point of the thread still have two questions to ask you:

[ Not in any order of importance ]

1. About the messages obtained from the part of believers in Ouija through the Ouija exercise, has anyone ever made very faithful collections of them, keeping track of what questions from what participants and at what time into the exercise or the session, and other attendant circumstances the answers from the spirit(s) were delivered,

2. What are the benefits accruing to people who do cultivate and derive satisfaction from the Ouija exercise, people who are learned, of public credibility, men of vast experience of human behavior and of the world.

Later we might go into the fears of people who warn everyone to not dabble in the Ouija board, what exactly are they afraid of and do their worst fears really materialize?

Oslove

[oslove]

Here is the list at this point in time of posters who contributed at least 30 posts to the thread "To all Ouija board users..."

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...who&t=98623

Who posted in: To all Ouija board users...

Poster and Number of Posts

JustNormal 155

IronGhost 147

Barek Halfhand 80

WhatTha? 49

Please Explain 41

She-ra 38

boorite 36

Paranormalcy 32

What I like to do is to ask the proponents and opponents above of the Ouija Board and also anyone else interested what they are at loggerheads on.

So, tell me pros and contras, is it about the existence of spirits specifically the kinds which can be accessed by way of the Ouija Board?

This question brings in an ascendant question, namely: what is a spirit in regard to the kinds accessible with the Ouija Board?

This thread will be very informative to people like myself who is curious with a rational intelligent curiosity about what the Ouija Board is relevant for to thinking people like the proponents as also the opponents and myself a student of paranormal phenomena.

So, what are you waiting for, proponents and opponents of the Ouija Board?

Speak up.

Oslove

The above post starting this thread and topic was published here on July 25, 2009, Saturday 10:04 AM (Post #1) [ all time data from me are eight hours in advance of Greenwich].

My last post here previous to the present one was published here Yesterday (July 27, 2009) Monday 10:37 AM -- Post #10).

The present post you readers are looking at is numbered #11.

As I write this message, it is now July 28, 2009, Tuesday 3:32 AM local time.

And so far at this point in time there have been ten messages altogether in this thread, from the following people:

Oslove 5

Paranormalcy 3

CausticGnostic 2

Where are the people who contributed so much posts in that thread "To all Ouija board users..."

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...who&t=98623

Poster and Number of Posts

JustNormal 155

IronGhost 147

Barek Halfhand 80

WhatTha? 49

Please Explain 41

She-ra 38

boorite 36

Paranormalcy 32

And this is so far the statistics of posters here in this present thread.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?act=Stats&CODE=who&t=159135

Poster Posts

Oslove 6 (including the present last post)

Paranormalcy 3

CausticGnostic 2

Well, I am still waiting for more posters to make their ideas and opinions heard.

There are so far 187 viewers to this thread, please contribute your ideas and opinions, so that we can get some serious conclusions established carefully on the Ouija phenomenon.

Oslove

[Pauly Dangerously]

I have used a Ouija several times over the years and as I have stated, I witnessed exactly zero interactions. My opinion is that the board is exactly what it is marketed as, a game. I place it's relevance in personal affairs just above the daily horoscope in the newpapers, and below the ingredient list on my Cap'N Crunch.

[CausticGnostic]

Unfortunately, two of the biggest contributors to the other thread--JustNormal and BarakHalfhand--have been banned. . . . Maybe we should attempt to contact them via the board.

[IronGhost]

Unfortunately, two of the biggest contributors to the other thread--JustNormal and BarakHalfhand--have been banned. . . . Maybe we should attempt to contact them via the board.

So that's what happened to them!

Maybe I'll comment more on the discussion later ... however, I often find that getting too involved in discussion probing the Ouija phenomenon tend to "jam my frequency" so to speak -- but right now I am also in the midst of a series of rather exhausting Ouija sessions -- an entity -- Vantu -- is dictating a work of fiction for us, which is turning out to be quite good.

The story is called "Transdimensional Abortion" -- it's about a young 18-year old physics major at a prestigious university who gets pregnant, does not believe in abortion, so another brilliant physics student convinces her to remove her gestating fetus by transporting it into the "11th Dimension" using an advanced scientific techniques.

This way, she gets to end her pregnancy without terminating her unborn child -- because it will go on living as a different kind of lifeform in the 11th Dimension.

I'm dying to see how it ends! We have about 5,000 words, so far. I hope Vantu wraps it up soon. Our backs are killing us from leaning over the board.

[oslove]

[...]

I'm dying to see how it ends! We have about 5,000 words, so far. I hope Vantu wraps it up soon. Our backs are killing us from leaning over the board.

5,000 words so far, on how many hours of seance or even days of how hours each?

Forgive me, IronGhost, but 5,000 words don't seem to count for much; the plot as so far told to you and your colleagues by the spirit Vantu can easily cover 20,000, I know that from writing term papers in school, like ON "what I did last summer," modesty aside please.

Anyway I am glad that you are appearing here and will give more time to this thread later as soon as you are through with Vantu; see if you can get him to join here with you as his spokesman.

Right away I can see the difference between you and Paranormalcy:

You practice Ouija and get to communicate with spirits, like Vantu.

He practices Ouija and get more and more convinced that it's all ideomotor effect, no spirits whatever and no communication of any legible kind.

So, between the two of you readers should have eventually a balanced if at all possible evaluation of Ouija.

By the way, you say:

I'm dying to see how it ends! We have about 5,000 words, so far. I hope Vantu wraps it up soon. Our backs are killing us from leaning over the board.

Can you guys not figure out a moRE comfortable way to enact the Ouija exercise, than sitting on chairs and leaning over the board to read words being formed from letters one by one?

Important thing is that you have a board with alphanumerical symbols and a pointer; here is an idea that should be welcome to people who do Ouija on long hours:

Place the board on a decently carpeted floor, and you guys lie on your left arm side also on the floor in a circle with your faces directed toward the board, use pillows for head support as necessary; now the fingers of your right hand can touch the pointer [ yes like ancient Romans and Greeks at their banquet ].

It might not exactly be more comfortable than sitting on chairs as Westerners normally do nowadays, but at least you don't get killed with leaning over the board.

Oslove

[IronGhost]

5,000 words so far, on how many hours of seance or even days of how hours each?

Forgive me, IronGhost, but 5,000 words don't seem to count for much; the plot as so far told to you and your colleagues by the spirit Vantu can easily cover 20,000, I know that from writing term papers in school, like ON "what I did last summer," modesty aside please.

Anyway I am glad that you are appearing here and will give more time to this thread later as soon as you are through with Vantu; see if you can get him to join here with you as his spokesman.

Right away I can see the difference between you and Paranormalcy:

You practice Ouija and get to communicate with spirits, like Vantu.

He practices Ouija and get more and more convinced that it's all ideomotor effect, no spirits whatever and no communication of any legible kind.

So, between the two of you readers should have eventually a balanced if at all possible evaluation of Ouija.

By the way, you say:

Can you guys not figure out a moRE comfortable way to enact the Ouija exercise, than sitting on chairs and leaning over the board to read words being formed from letters one by one?

Important thing is that you have a board with alphanumerical symbols and a pointer; here is an idea that should be welcome to people who do Ouija on long hours:

Place the board on a decently carpeted floor, and you guys lie on your left arm side also on the floor in a circle with your faces directed toward the board, use pillows for head support as necessary; now the fingers of your right hand can touch the pointer [ yes like ancient Romans and Greeks at their banquet ].

It might not exactly be more comfortable than sitting on chairs as Westerners normally do nowadays, but at least you don't get killed with leaning over the board.

Oslove

No, oslove, 5,000 words is actually very long for a short story. In many magazines, short stories are as few as 1,500 words. Anything over 10,000 words is no longer considered a short story -- then you get into the category of "novelette" or "novella"

The average published short story is usually between 1,500 and 5,000 words.

Also, in general, I don't consider most of the beings I communicate with via the Ouija board to be "spirits." In the case of Vantu, for example, I guess I would call him and "intelligence entity." Vantu does not seem to have ever been a human being, and who has died and is now speaking with us as a spirit from the spirit world.

As far as we can tell, Vantu was never a human being -- rather, he seems to be some kind of "being" living in a reality dimension that is very close to ours, yet shifted away in some sublte ways -- yet at the same time very similar. Whatever the case, he's very interested in writing, he understand what humans are and the human condition, although I think his overall level of talent is questionable.

As far as the ideometer effect is concerned -- if someone believes that the Ouija phenomenon is just that -- the ideometer effect -- then that's what it will be for them. If you have 100% certaintly that the idesometer effect is the total explanation, then I don't see how you can get away from that in terms of your Ouija board practice. If you're not open to some other possibilities, you will effectively shut them out.

In my view, the ideometer effects is very much a Newtonian, mechanical explanation for what is happening with the board. It presumes a certain model of how the brain works and how consciousness is structured -- it presumes there are at least two layers of mind -- the conscious and the subconsciious -- and this latter form of mind, has the ability to make our bodies perform "unconscious acts."

It's an okay theory because it explains a lot of things -- unfortunately, it's outmoded and based on 100-year-old science.

The ideometer effect is similar to 500-plus years ago when astronomers invented the concept of "epicycles" in a desperate attempt to prop up the outmoded earth-centered model of the solar system.

Because the best science of the day said that the sun and all the other planets revolved around the earth -- they could not understand why some of the planets seemed to go backwards sometimes across the night sky -- what they called "retrograde motion." To explain it, they theorized that planets not only revolved around the earth, but also moved in their own smal mini-oribits, called epicycles.

Very much like the ideometer effect, the epicycles theory "patched a hole" in the flaws of the earth-centered theory of the solar system.

But little did they realize they had their overall model wrong. The solar system is in fact sun-centered. Suddenly, the reason for retrograde motion became apparent. The other planets appeard to go backward in their orbits because the earth was, in effect, "lapping them" in its smaller orbit around the sun -- so suddenly, the whole epicycle theory was seen as totally wrong.

Yet, the epicycle theory was good enough for the times because it solved observation problems, and propped up the best theory of the day.

In similar fashion then -- the ideometer effect is a kind of desperate attempt to "patch a hole" in the current theory of how the brain and mind work. It's propping up "the best theory of the day" so to speak. But that theory is now outmoded.

The problem is, the concept of mind, subconscious mind and unconscious acts is barking up totally the wrong tree because it is the wrong model of the brain and mind.

It may be more accrurate to think of the brain as a holographic device which is "interphasing" with ambient intelligence information existent in the Universe. Think of the very fabric of the universe made up of pure intelligence -- in this case, the Ouija board is facilitating our holographic brain to form interstices with other modes of intelligence -- and this is the information that comes across the Ouija board.

True, you probably don't need an Ouija board in a holographic brain model -- but it's the crutch I have learned to lean on as a "jumping off point" to create an interstice bewteen my portion of the univeral intelligence "ocean" with all the other portions of the "information soup" that is out there.

That's if for now ....

Edited July 28, 2009 by IronGhost

[oslove]

[...]

Also, in general, I don't consider most of the beings I communicate with via the Ouija board to be "spirits." In the case of Vantu, for example, I guess I would call him and "intelligence entity." Vantu does not seem to have ever been a human being, and who has died and is now speaking with us as a spirit from the spirit world.

[...]

I was defining in an earlier post in another thread not from myself (or here in this thread also?), that a spirit in the context of the Ouija is an invisible being that can be accessed by way of the Ouija exercise.

If I read you correctly then, there are various kinds of beings that can be contacted with by way of the Ouija exercise even though not souls of departed humans and not spirits as commonly understood generically like God, angels, and of course the fallen angels with Lucifer at their head, and what about demons?

Question (and no irreverence to God and not being frivolous either): Have you tried making contact with God and Jesus Christ? If not, why not?

[...]

As far as the ideometer effect is concerned -- if someone believes that the Ouija phenomenon is just that -- the ideometer effect -- then that's what it will be for them. If you have 100% certaintly that the ideometer effect is the total explanation, then I don't see how you can get away from that in terms of your Ouija board practice. If you're not open to some other possibilities, you will effectively shut them out.

[...]

As a matter of fact science today is self-restricted by scientists to be concerned with and to be involved exclusively with only things which can be directly accessed by the five senses of man (sight, hearing, touch, smell, and taste), or indirectly accessed by these senses through man-made instruments of detection.

In regard to the concept of the ideomotor effect as a physical movement genuinely proceeding from the person himself participating in the Ouija exercise, only he does not know it, namely, that the physical movement proceeds from himself, I have this criticism:

As I understand it, the person participating in the Ouija exercise knows and admits indeed that the physical movement comes from himself but he is acting on the physical influence of an invisible entity acting on himself (the human participant of Ouija).

So, for the adversaries the physical movement from a Ouija participant is called an ideomotor effect not known to the participant of Ouija to be from himself; but for the participant the movement is indeed from himself but it comes about on the influence of an entity accessible by way of the Ouija exercise.

Whom do we take seriously, the adversaries of Ouija or the participant?

It all depends on whether we deny already from the very beginning that there are any such invisible entities which can influence the participants to enact movements; if we deny the existence of such invisible beings, then we will ascribe any movement solely to the participant himself, and that the participant just does not know it.

If on the contrary we admit the existence of invisible entities, then we can accept that the participant of Ouija is neither ignorant of his movement coming from himself but also that it is due to the influence physical at that from invisible entities accessible by way of the Ouija.

The adversaries of Ouija are speaking from their own conviction that there are no such invisible beings accessible by way of the Ouija exercise, and the participant of the Ouija exercise is speaking from his own experience of physical influence from such invisible entities.

What do I say? I say that I must take a person to not be ignorant of what he is experiencing or to be lying about what he is experiencing if he has no reason why he should lie.

Oslove

[CausticGnostic]

It seems we agree that the board is a focus for energy; we just differ as to which energy is being focused and where it comes from. My problem with Iron Ghost's view is that it must presuppose a lot more things than ascribing to the ideomotor effect does. And saying that the contemporary model of the human psyche is "outmoded" can be turned around to charge reverting to supernatural "explanations" as being an atavism.

Science is very good at what it does and, although it doesn't have all the answers, it has achieved more truths in 500 years than all the previous millions of years that humans or hominids have inhabited this planet. I wouldn't be so eager to throw it away in order to commune with a bunch of hypothetical "entities," whether they be thought of as "interdimensional intelligences" or "supernatural spirits."

If such beings can be contacted by or work through the board, then they ought to be able to do so when only one person is using it. But that seems to be either extremely rare or simply non-existent.

And what, in any case, is one supposed to learn about the world we inhabit from a story about a "transdimensional" pseudo-abortion purported dictated by some being from another dimension? If "Vantu" is so intelligent, why doesn "he" give us some practical truths that we can apply in out everyday lives or explain some fundamental process of reality so that we can advance technologically?

Edited July 28, 2009 by CausticGnostic

[IronGhost]

Quite an excellent discussion here, and I'll comment more later.

I'll just say, oslove, that yes, we have spoken to God and Jesus a number of times on the Ouija board over the years -- avoiding these two major deity concepts was unavoidable over my 42 years of Ouija practice.

I'll dig through my hundreds of notebooks to see if I can find a "Jesus Session" transcript, which I remember as being rather interesting.

But right now I am preparing for an Ouija session tonight -- Vantu's short story is up to 6,500 words and I think its heading to a conclusion. I am eager to see how he resolves the situations of his characters.

[Paranormalcy]

I would like to make two basic notes, one to IG's main ideomotor idea and one to oslove's interpretation on same topic.

I concur with Iron Ghost that the current basic explanation of the ideomotor effect, while I believe has a lot of apparent validity and/or at least explains exceptionally well, a lot of the features/processes of Ouija use (as well as automatic writing, pendulums, dowsing, tabletipping, etc), is incomplete or perhaps not even formulated correctly - I think most of its ideas are applicable, but it may be in a configuration different from reality, or may be part of a (much) larger mechanism, possibly involving non-standard concepts like "dimensions" or realities, energies, telepathy, etc. because as noted, it doesn't seem reasonable to me that "your sleeping mind makes your fingers twitch invisibly and move the pointer to spell out 'PANACEA' " is all that definitive as the entirety of the theory. However, at present time, for me, this is THE "theory to beat", science-wise, and maintains its dominance among empiricists, in opposition to the "spirit" theory, and find Caustic's post a fine brief argument.

I realized this past week that this is something I have neglected to really try to bring to the forefront of all of my long-*** expounding posts, and that is that I was NOT a "skeptic" or adversary or whatever else, at the time of our groups' use of the Ouija, and I'm almost as certain none of our members were either - but let me treat this with a bit of depth...

Not a shocker, but I wasn't born a skeptic, with this tired old ideomotor saw being my first words - it was actually "cheeseburger", perhaps not surprisingly.

I ask you to consider yourself, someone you know, anyone, friend or family, and think about their beliefs, be it in spirits, God, the superiority of their favorite sports team, etc. Now think about how they came about that belief - did they actively and deliberately draw these conclusions after much personal observation and research and experience and reason, or did they just more or less "inherit" it because their parents always told them that, or their peers all believed it or it was the accepted way of things in their culture or the world, and there wasn't really any reason to think about it themselves, let alone question or change it?

To me, this is where a lot of people are, what I call the "old wives' tale/urban legend/quasi-superstition/internet gullibility" path, where they regurgitate things like "shaving makes the hair grow back thicker", "grandaddy long legs are the deadliest spider on earth but can't bite through skin", "a ducks' quack doesn't echo and no one knows why", "We only use 10% of our brains" or "Ouija boards are portals to Hell". This path represents things we've probably heard all our lives, and likely accepted for a great majority of them or just didn't think anything about one way or the other, until we finally got the inclination to address these and examine their validity, saying "Exactly WHO said a duck's quack doesn't echo? Why would it not?" and apply our own research, critical thinking and reason to, and come up with personal conclusions, preferably those based on personal first-hand "I tried it, it's crap/oh my god they're right" experience.

Here I'll summarize the below, if you accept what I say without need to know every detail: I was not only "not a skeptic" but I think it could be said "a (somewhat convinced/unsure at least) believer" in the commonly-recognized terms and definitions of ghosts and aliens and such, more or less like the rest of my group, and so while I may not present a particularly strong example of someone who could instruct you on how to make a "Psi Ball" today, I have had my share of using coat-hanger dowsing rods to detect auras and fine tuning radionics boxes made out of old cereal boxes and wire stripped out of a coax cable, so in actuality, I'd estimate probably 98% of my experience with Ouija boards has been of the "must be a spirit, what else could it be?" mindset.

Lastly I'd like to say that my experience is for me and my group, and my views and opinions on what I have read or heard of other people's experiences - while I AM suggesting that my interpretation and explanation may account for other users' results, I am certainly not insisting or claiming to be certain of it or even saying my opinion should carry considerably more weight because of my vast experience, which would presume that our board use even operated in the same way as someone else's. I fully realize an argument could be made that my example and conclusion about my group's sessions may be 100% dead-on accurate, that it was all some boring muscle thing, while other sessions may indeed involve something beyond this - I don't dispute this alternate explanation, but cannot find significant reason for me to consider it with equal veracity.

When I say I think my friends "believed in ghosts" or spirits, demons, angels, Bigfoot, aliens or the Loch Ness Monster, I can only make this assertion with any amount of confidence, to the extent I outlined above, and I fit into the exact same category right there with them - I began my interest in the paranormal reading "Gus and the Baby Ghost" as a wee one, then became interested in this concept of "ghost", which of course a children's book doesn't even explain (little morbid maybe?), so I had no idea what the hell this white goofy looking Herculoids/Schmoo thing was supposed to be, as I'd certainly never seen one. I then read slightly more serious books even at a young age, on "ghost", meaning the filmy insubstantial "gooey center" of a person, a dead person in fact.

I could go on, but I'm saying is eventually I get in with a group about '93 at the age of 19, that also talks about this stuff, with a similar mindset, or even with their own stories of experiences and THEIR family and friends' own tales, and best of all, who want to actually investigate this stuff first-hand - me too! We all talked about ghosts, demons, read books, related stories, articles in the paper, TV or radio, shared top picks with each other like Dr. Edith Fiore's "The Unquiet Dead", Communion, stuff by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle or works about Patience Worth - so we all certainly "believed in ghosts" or spirits in that way; we had a mystic/occultist who, even though most of his stuff was arcane metaphysical alchemy and archetypes, still talked about elementals, eternal life and necromancy - and so, naturally, the $30 Toys-R-Us Ouija board, the tool of all serious paranormal investigators prepared to plumb the depths of the Universe.

We got results. All kinds of results. Things claiming to be ghosts, guides, reincarnated spirits from our own past lives, angels, demons, trees, the Moon, aliens, shades, animals, other living people. We went with it, no doubt sort of taking a lot with a pinch of salt and not believing we were talking to the Moon or that "97 aliens" would be outside at 3:30 in the morning, but we kept going for the sake of curiosity, proof and entertainment.

I also believe we essentially suspended or maybe never developed a truly meaningful sense of critical thinking and skepticism. We made sure it was night, lit incense and candles, had three different kinds of Tarot cards laid out around the board, with quartz crystals and herbs and personal fetish charms laid carefully on the black silk tablecloth, said our little group prayer of affirmation and purpose, did the creative visualization technique of the White Light, sometimes did some sort of "OM" thing, got movement on the board, we got responses. It worked. It said it was a ghost? It was a ghost. I guess. We set aside "what does movement MEAN?" or what else could explain it, or what does "GHOST" mean, to be addressed later, so while I doubt any of us were ever solidly convinced and certain that we were talking to ghosts, it was more or less the default assumption and dictated our appropriate behavior.

But at the time? Incredible - and scary. Some of the stuff we got was just astounding, creative, stuff none of us had heard before, words we might have possibly seen or read once but never used or even knew how to spell, foreign language words that couldn't be translated or even made sense years later, dream info, advice on channeling and spirit contact, astral projecting and mysterious tomes that tells you how to use trees as doorways, the board correctly spelling out the maiden name of one member's great-great-grandmother who even he claims he had to ask his mother the next week.

When we got our first (and about only) negative entity, with its own name and referred to by the spirit guides as a "shade", or when I was chosen to be the one to do "crossing overs" for the ghosts that apparently started coming across the street from the graveyard, I was anxious and stressed and depressed and scared, we may have gotten into something we didn't understand like we thought, that might be able to manifest or do things to us that we hadn't heard of or dismissed or didn't think could happen to us.

What if we left spirit portals open all over the place, were attracting hundreds of "things", good, bad and in-between, what if we had invisible "psychic vampires" on us, draining our "auras" or following us home as shadows we saw out the corner of our eyes? What about all that, holy crap, what have we done, we shouldn't a meddled! I skipped some weekends, frightened and dreading going back and participating again. Although we eventually got rid of the negative entity via group-meta-session discussion with one of the members, we only used it a couple more months after that, with less than previous success and energy, then our group all broke up and moved apart and only me and one member have used the board (actually homemade ones) occasionally a few times on and off since then, over the years.

During the last couple months of the group, and the rare times after I got to use the board after that, I began to notice the subtler things in our group, my own and the other person's behavior and tendencies while using the board, patterns, letters and whole words being anticipated by someone, the results too coincidentally matching the user(s)' personality, interests and point of view, arguably no information of any real, verifiable or useful substance, in all our sessions, though I don't deny most was quite entertaining and fun and interesting. But these later-to-the-game observations, coupled with our couple of "scientific tests" with the blindfolds and my own noticing various patterns and dubiousness in tons of historical paranormal "lore", began to severely impinge on my perception of these things as something that could be taken at face value just because that's what I had always done. The TV was wall to wall with Chupacabra and alien coverup government conspiracy theories, we were watching the new series, "The X-Files" at the time - did Agent Scully and airtime given to James Randi and Phillip J. Klass have something to do with my shift? Possibly, I'd say even definitely, in that it opened up a world of not just wondering about something, but actively providing alternate, scientific explanations - but I still loved Sightings, idolized Mulder, went on more trips to the Spooklight and ghost hunts, read more "OMG YOU WON'T BELIEVE IT!" type books.

[oslove]

It seems we agree that the board is a focus for energy; we just differ as to which energy is being focused and where it comes from. ...

You have introduced at this point of the thread the word energy.

I am drawing up the vocabulary of the Ouija event and phenomenon.

And my idea is to use very simple words understood by anyone who has an adequate reading comprehension and writing skill enabling him to communicate with fellow human beings in everyday circumstances of life at home, in one's place of employment or work, and also in all the activities of social interactions.

Here are some words which I recommend heartily that we all employ for the purpose of this thread:

Ouija -- having to do with a board displaying alphanumerical symbols which people use to communicate with invisible beings.

Board -- see Ouija.

Pointer -- any object placed on the Ouija board which participants of Ouija touch with their fingers and it moves to one letter after another or number.

Movement -- see Pointer.

These are working terms for a vocabulary of Ouija, they can be further defined with greater clarity, and they can be taken out or replaced with other terms as necessary.

So, please, CausticGnostic, would you just use the word movement instead of energy, thus:

It seems we agree that the board is a focus for movement; we just differ as to which movement is being focused and where it comes from. ...

You ask, CausticGnostic:

And what, in any case, is one supposed to learn about the world we inhabit from

[Ouija]

...?

That is exactly what we are trying to find out, because so many people are into Ouija, some in favor because of benefits to themselves, and some not in favor because there is nothing of any benefit there but only if any dubious amusement, or worse because it is harmful to people.

Oslove

[oslove]

I would like to make two basic notes, one to IG's main ideomotor idea and one to oslove's interpretation on same topic.

One for IronGhost:

I concur with Iron Ghost that the current basic explanation of the ideomotor effect, while I believe has a lot of apparent validity and/or at least explains exceptionally well, a lot of the features/processes of Ouija use (as well as automatic writing, pendulums, dowsing, tabletipping, etc), is incomplete or perhaps not even formulated correctly - I think most of its ideas are applicable, but it may be in a configuration different from reality, or may be part of a (much) larger mechanism, possibly involving non-standard concepts like "dimensions" or realities, energies, telepathy, etc. ...

One for Oslove:

[...]

I realized this past week that this is something I have neglected to really try to bring to the forefront of all of my long-*** expounding posts, and that is that I was NOT a "skeptic" or adversary or whatever else, at the time of our groups' use of the Ouija, and I'm almost as certain none of our members were either - but let me treat this with a bit of depth...

[...]

During the last couple months of the group, and the rare times after I got to use the board after that, I began to notice the subtler things in our group, my own and the other person's behavior and tendencies while using the board, patterns, letters and whole words being anticipated by someone, the results too coincidentally matching the user(s)' personality, interests and point of view, arguably no information of any real, verifiable or useful substance, in all our sessions, ... I'd say even definitely, in that it opened up a world of not just wondering about something, but actively providing alternate, scientific explanations...

That is all very informative so that we can keep your background in mind as you continue to provide natural explanations for the Ouija phenomenon and event without recourse to invisible beings.

Oslove

[CausticGnostic]

You have introduced at this point of the thread the word energy.

I am drawing up the vocabulary of the Ouija event and phenomenon.

And my idea is to use very simple words understood by anyone who has an adequate reading comprehension and writing skill enabling him to communicate with fellow human beings in everyday circumstances of life at home, in one's place of employment or work, and also in all the activities of social interactions.

Here are some words which I recommend heartily that we all employ for the purpose of this thread:

Ouija -- having to do with a board displaying alphanumerical symbols which people use to communicate with invisible beings.

Board -- see Ouija.

Pointer -- any object placed on the Ouija board which participants of Ouija touch with their fingers and it moves to one letter after another or number.

Movement -- see Pointer.

These are working terms for a vocabulary of Ouija, they can be further defined with greater clarity, and they can be taken out or replaced with other terms as necessary.

So, please, CausticGnostic, would you just use the word movement instead of energy, thus:

You ask, CausticGnostic:

And what, in any case, is one supposed to learn about the world we inhabit from

[Ouija]

...?

That is exactly what we are trying to find out, because so many people are into Ouija, some in favor because of benefits to themselves, and some not in favor because there is nothing of any benefit there but only if any dubious amusement, or worse because it is harmful to people.

Oslove

Let me get this straight: youre trying to tell me what words I can use when I post on this thread? And if I don't use the terms you approve of, you're going to edit my posts so they read the way you want them to read?

Adios, pal.

Edited July 29, 2009 by CausticGnostic

[oslove]

Let me get this straight: youre trying to tell me what words I can use when I post on this thread? And if I don't use the terms you approve of, you're going to edit my posts so they read the way you want them to read?

Adios, pal.

This is what I said:

Yesterday, 09:23 AM Post #21

QUOTE (CausticGnostic @ Jul 29 2009, 06:07 AM)

It seems we agree that the board is a focus for energy; we just differ as to which energy is being focused and where it comes from. ...

You have introduced at this point of the thread the word energy.

I am drawing up the vocabulary of the Ouija event and phenomenon.

And my idea is to use very simple words understood by anyone who has an adequate reading comprehension and writing skill enabling him to communicate with fellow human beings in everyday circumstances of life at home, in one's place of employment or work, and also in all the activities of social interactions.

Here are some words which I recommend heartily that we all employ for the purpose of this thread:

Ouija -- having to do with a board displaying alphanumerical symbols which people use to communicate with invisible beings.

Board -- see Ouija.

Pointer -- any object placed on the Ouija board which participants of Ouija touch with their fingers and it moves to one letter after another or number.

Movement -- see Pointer.

These are working terms for a vocabulary of Ouija, they can be further defined with greater clarity, and they can be taken out or replaced with other terms as necessary.

So, please, CausticGnostic, would you just use the word movement instead of energy, thus:

QUOTE

It seems we agree that the board is a focus for movement; we just differ as to which movement is being focused and where it comes from. ...

You ask, CausticGnostic:

And what, in any case, is one supposed to learn about the world we inhabit from

[Ouija]

...?

That is exactly what we are trying to find out, because so many people are into Ouija, some in favor because of benefits to themselves, and some not in favor because there is nothing of any benefit there but only if any dubious amusement, or worse because it is harmful to people.

Oslove

Of course, you can use any words you want to say anything pertinent in re Ouija, I am just telling you that it might be easier to readers if we all adopt simple words and the same words for the important objects and concepts of Ouija.

Hasta la vista, amigo.

Oslove

[oslove]

So far we have four posters here who do practice Ouija:

Paranormalcy

CausticAgnostic

IronGhost

Paul Noise

We can see that they are divided over the existence and presence of invisible beings in Ouija, that is the impasse between on the one side IronGhost who maintains that there are invisible beings involved in Ouija, and on the opposite side Paranormalcy, CausticAgnostic, and Paul Noise who maintain there are no invisible beings involved.

Am I correct in my conclusion above?

Oslove