Visual Reorientation Illusions (VRIs)

[Hugh]

If you read Hammeroff (who has a very poor reputation) and Penrose, read Tegmark's seminal paper on why quantum consciousness does not work

The Importance of Quantum Decoherence in Brain Processes

Tegmark's maths falsify the idea of quantum mind because the neurons do not fire faster enough for there to be a quantum effect, even Hammeroff (who is neither a biologist or a physicist but and anaesthetist) can't even make this work with his own calculations and hence he is not so well considered. There is no support for quantum mind in biology and it is very much accepted that biology (no surprise because it is all on the macro scale) works on Newtonian mechanics.

Thank you for your response Mattshark.

On a large scale, Newtonian mechanics works well, but there are micro events that are still unexplainable with it from my understanding, hence the desire for a unified field theory that unites all the forces and explains how everything operates on both the very tiny, and largest of scales.

Is it possible that there are higher dimensions but we aren't aware of them because of our limited macro viewpoint?

If there were actual higher dimensions of the universe - including ourselves, how would they manifest themselves in our experience?

Also, have you ever experienced getting "turned around" in your bearings and the VRI yourself?

Thanks.

[Mr Walker]

I think that objectively, i understand what the OP is about, and i accept it is a real condition, but it seems almost unbelievable to me. I can get disoriented. EG once i was trapped under the sail of a yacht which had capsized, and i found it hard to work out which direction to head in, to get out from under it. This was a matter of pressing urgency, as the sail was filled with water so i couldn t find an air pocket, and my life lacket, ironically, prevented me from diving down and getting my bearings. I was just sort of suffocating under a large wet sail. Fortunately i manged to head in one direction long enough to get out before i drowned.

Also, at uni there was a set of large rectangular buildings formed of corridors with courtyards between them. At first i had trouble orienting myself and i still(40 years later) have dreams where i am trying to find my way around those damned buildings. Every corridor was exactly the same, and every door and office was identical, so you kept turning corners and seeing exactly the same vista in front of you

But outside, or even in normal buildings, i have an almost perfect sense of natural direction, i can orient myself and know where the main compasss bearings are. This comes in handy in another hobby of mine, geocaching. Although that depends on gps, it really helps to have an accurate internal sense of direction. Also i can locate myself in respect to a map and the local terrain almost instantly.That may be a learned skill as i have been interested in maps and geography all my life.

ANy way, i imagine this would be an annoying, and at times frightening, disability, especially if it happened regularly.

[Hugh]

I think that objectively, i understand what the OP is about, and i accept it is a real condition, but it seems almost unbelievable to me. I can get disoriented. EG once i was trapped under the sail of a yacht which had capsized, and i found it hard to work out which direction to head in, to get out from under it. This was a matter of pressing urgency, as the sail was filled with water so i couldn t find an air pocket, and my life lacket, ironically, prevented me from diving down and getting my bearings. I was just sort of suffocating under a large wet sail. Fortunately i manged to head in one direction long enough to get out before i drowned.

Also, at uni there was a set of large rectangular buildings formed of corridors with courtyards between them. At first i had trouble orienting myself and i still(40 years later) have dreams where i am trying to find my way around those damned buildings. Every corridor was exactly the same, and every door and office was identical, so you kept turning corners and seeing exactly the same vista in front of you

But outside, or even in normal buildings, i have an almost perfect sense of natural direction, i can orient myself and know where the main compasss bearings are. This comes in handy in another hobby of mine, geocaching. Although that depends on gps, it really helps to have an accurate internal sense of direction. Also i can locate myself in respect to a map and the local terrain almost instantly.That may be a learned skill as i have been interested in maps and geography all my life.

ANy way, i imagine this would be an annoying, and at times frightening, disability, especially if it happened regularly.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mr. Walker.

The similar rectangular buildings at your university sound like they would cause VRIs.

You would think that you're heading a certain way, but would realize that you weren't and things would be disorienting.

The VRI is a somewhat subtle flip because everything looks exactly the same, so most people dismiss it because they just think they got confused, but the exact nature of the VRI involves a perceived change in viewing direction, and that's what I'm interested in.

In your experience, did the disorientation involve an instant flip phenomenon, where North, South, East and West turned around in their orientation?

People who have a strong sense of direction such as you do seem to notice the flip more because they are aware of their bearings.

I too have a strong sense of bearing, and that's why the experience is so interesting to me.

I'm fascinated that the same place can be viewed from different directions.

Have you ever had the flip occur in a movie theater?

Some people, during a movie, subconsciously think that they are in another movie theater (facing another direction), and when they go to leave the theater they find that things have been flipped around.

They go to walk in one direction, then they realize, oh ya, the exit is "the other way" instead.

It's because they got flipped around in bearings.

Most of us just say - I got confused - but when you study what happened, over the course of the whole experience, you have seen the same place from different directions.

It is that fact that I'm so fascinated about - trying to explain this scientifically.

I've been able to practice the VRI flip in many places and it never ceases to amaze me.

[Mr Walker]

I dont remember a distinct flip at uni, but it certainly stuck in my subconscious if it recurred in dreams up to 40 years later on, so it may have been a strong physical effect. I know that i was suprised at losing my sense of direction, because usually it is strongly inherent.

I dont have any trouble in movie theatres, other than some general difficulty of orientation in a very dark place, enhanced by sitting and looking in one direction for a long time.

In underground caves where one is constantly reorientating oneself, and adjusting bearings, consciously tracking direction and movement, this does not occur; and i dont get lost in mazes either.

[Hugh]

I dont remember a distinct flip at uni, but it certainly stuck in my subconscious if it recurred in dreams up to 40 years later on, so it may have been a strong physical effect. I know that i was suprised at losing my sense of direction, because usually it is strongly inherent.

The reason I wanted to know if you experienced a distinct flip is because that's the key feature of the VRI, an instant 90 or 180 degree turn (as shown in the original post picture).

I dont have any trouble in movie theatres, other than some general difficulty of orientation in a very dark place, enhanced by sitting and looking in one direction for a long time.

In underground caves where one is constantly reorientating oneself, and adjusting bearings, consciously tracking direction and movement, this does not occur; and i dont get lost in mazes either.

It's great that you have a strong sense of direction, because that helps in consciously experiencing the VRI when it occurs.

Would it be possible for you to try the mirror experiment that I talked about in detail in posts #19 and #26 of this thread earlier?

I am very interested to hear what you feel about looking at the room that is 180 degrees rotated from the one you are in, and if you can - even briefly - "flip" into that viewpoint.

Here's a diagram to go along with the previous explanations of the experiment:

[Mr Walker]

The reason I wanted to know if you experienced a distinct flip is because that's the key feature of the VRI, an instant 90 or 180 degree turn (as shown in the original post picture).

It's great that you have a strong sense of direction, because that helps in consciously experiencing the VRI when it occurs.

Would it be possible for you to try the mirror experiment that I talked about in detail in posts #19 and #26 of this thread earlier?

I am very interested to hear what you feel about looking at the room that is 180 degrees rotated from the one you are in, and if you can - even briefly - "flip" into that viewpoint.

Here's a diagram to go along with the previous explanations of the experiment:

Ill give it a go, but i must warn you, i will be restricted by one very real physical drawback. I am physically unable to consciously visualise the simplest object or diagram. My mind does not work in visual images, but in a variety of streams of consciousness, and an ability to know/ understand things without any internal visual representation.

Perhaps in compensation, i have the ability not only to dream in absolute reality, but to create, construct, and control my dreams in a lucid way, so that i can inhabit "real," but alternate worlds, indistinguishable from our objective reality, but where any physical ability is possible because it is a product of the mind (sort of like not just living in, but creating and controlling your own "matrix"world)

In such worlds not only can i, for example, fly by will , but i run classes to teach others the techniques required for safe flying (particularly soft landings)

[Hugh]

Ill give it a go, but i must warn you, i will be restricted by one very real physical drawback. I am physically unable to consciously visualise the simplest object or diagram. My mind does not work in visual images, but in a variety of streams of consciousness, and an ability to know/ understand things without any internal visual representation.

Perhaps in compensation, i have the ability not only to dream in absolute reality, but to create, construct, and control my dreams in a lucid way, so that i can inhabit "real," but alternate worlds, indistinguishable from our objective reality, but where any physical ability is possible because it is a product of the mind (sort of like not just living in, but creating and controlling your own "matrix"world)

In such worlds not only can i, for example, fly by will , but i run classes to teach others the techniques required for safe flying (particularly soft landings)

That was a fascinating insight into the way you think Mr Walker.

I look forward to the results of your foray into the VRI experience.

It's amazing to switch viewpoints with the one on the other side of the mirrors.

Edited August 5, 2009 by Hugh

[Hugh]

Pictures are worth a thousand words.

Some may not be able to understand a written procedure yet a visual one is much clearer.

I made up this visual to demonstrate a 180 degree movie theatre VRI flip:

You actually perform this flip using your mind while you are in the movie theatre yourself.

You are facing one direction, let's say North, then you imagine that you are in another theatre that faces in the opposite direction, South.

Most of us have been in enough theatres in our life that at one time or another, we have been in a theatre that has a bearing sense that is opposite to any theatre that we are in.

What happens is an instant rotation of 180 degrees with a VRI, and you are now in the same theatre, but are now still facing North, but in a direction that South used to be in.

You can have fun with VRIs and flip back and forth between the views.

There are also 90 degree VRIs, where you flip to a viewpoint that is to the right or left 90 degrees.

I find 90 degree VRIs harder than 180 VRIs.

Please try to do a 180 degree VRI the next time you're at the movies and report back.

I'd love to hear anyone's experiences with this!

[crystal sage]

I usually have that experience when I am driving... I am certain I am traveling one direction and suddenly find myself way off course.. traveling in the opposite direction... Usually time anomalies are involved in this ( expanded or shrunk)...and synchronistic events.. meetings... It is almost as if these synchronisms had a consciousness of it's own and remanufactured reality... and forgot I was in it..

I think that is a kind of expanded VRI with a story...a purpose...

Have your experiences come with 'chance' encounters? or some learning experience?

[Hugh]

I usually have that experience when I am driving... I am certain I am traveling one direction and suddenly find myself way off course.. traveling in the opposite direction...

It has happened to me when I am driving too.

I think I'm driving in a certain direction, then I come to a place that I recognize, that I have normally seen in different direction.

Then everything flips back to its "normal" viewpoint.

If you find you've been travelling in the "opposite direction", then you experience a 180 degree VRI to switch things back to a normal view...

When you think about the whole process though, isn't it interesting that you've seen the same space from 2 different viewpoints, before and after the flip?

Isn't that cool?

Usually time anomalies are involved in this ( expanded or shrunk)...and synchronistic events.. meetings... It is almost as if these synchronisms had a consciousness of it's own and remanufactured reality... and forgot I was in it..

I think that is a kind of expanded VRI with a story...a purpose...

Have your experiences come with 'chance' encounters? or some learning experience?

That's interesting that you've experienced that as well with the VRI... I'm trying to think of a similar connection for me...

I'm thinking that because I have experienced VRIs from the time I was a child, and now can make them happen just by conscious will, that they have become a common experience for me...

For example, sitting here, I can flip the viewpoint of the room I am in 180 degrees, and I don't notice a time anomaly.

There is a definite feeling of being in a different space though, because where I am sitting now, I see it in the same orientation 99.9% of the time.

After I do a conscious 180 degree flip, it automatically flips back to normal, because that's what my brain is used to in this space.

When you talk of a "consciousness of it's own" I can relate to that feeling because of the automatic flip back to the normal viewpoint.

I can't remember of 'chance encounters' happening with VRIs, but I can definitely count VRIs as a learning experience.

I remember the first day as a child that I learned that I could consciously control VRIs.

Sometimes, as a child, when I would come home from shopping trips or from school, my home (and neighborhood) would be 'turned around' from the normal way that I saw it.

It was really cool because I was able to explore around my home in a new orientation - it was like it was in another dimension...

Everything was still the same, but it was all flipped around...

One time I came home from school and was enjoying seeing my bedroom in the different way, then my brain automatically flipped it back to the normal view.

I was upset that it had flipped because it was so much fun seeing it the other way, so I was determined to flip it back the way I had just seen it...

I focused my thought, and IT FLIPPED!!

Wow, a whole new understanding came about, because I realized that I could be in control of it and could play around with it.

Over time, I practiced the VRI, and confirmed that there were four different ways of seeing my house in orientation.

Four different ways to see every place and the universe included.

With VRIs one sees that there are these 'extra dimensions' of the space that they inhabit.

They're an indication of something more than only 3 dimensions.

Some scientists have asked "where's any indication in our experience that there are higher dimensions?"

I think the VRI is a good candidate.

Thanks for your reply crystal sage... I would be interested to hear any more thoughts...

It would be great to hear if you've tried the Movie Theatre Flip that I posted a picture of earlier - and any results.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Hugh

[crystal sage]

It has happened to me when I am driving too.

I think I'm driving in a certain direction, then I come to a place that I recognize, that I have normally seen in different direction.

Then everything flips back to its "normal" viewpoint.

If you find you've been travelling in the "opposite direction", then you experience a 180 degree VRI to switch things back to a normal view...

When you think about the whole process though, isn't it interesting that you've seen the same space from 2 different viewpoints, before and after the flip?

Isn't that cool?

That's interesting that you've experienced that as well with the VRI... I'm trying to think of a similar connection for me...

I'm thinking that because I have experienced VRIs from the time I was a child, and now can make them happen just by conscious will, that they have become a common experience for me...

For example, sitting here, I can flip the viewpoint of the room I am in 180 degrees, and I don't notice a time anomaly.

There is a definite feeling of being in a different space though, because where I am sitting now, I see it in the same orientation 99.9% of the time.

After I do a conscious 180 degree flip, it automatically flips back to normal, because that's what my brain is used to in this space.

When you talk of a "consciousness of it's own" I can relate to that feeling because of the automatic flip back to the normal viewpoint.

I can't remember of 'chance encounters' happening with VRIs, but I can definitely count VRIs as a learning experience.

I remember the first day as a child that I learned that I could consciously control VRIs.

Sometimes, as a child, when I would come home from shopping trips or from school, my home (and neighborhood) would be 'turned around' from the normal way that I saw it.

It was really cool because I was able to explore around my home in a new orientation - it was like it was in another dimension...

Everything was still the same, but it was all flipped around...

One time I came home from school and was enjoying seeing my bedroom in the different way, then my brain automatically flipped it back to the normal view.

I was upset that it had flipped because it was so much fun seeing it the other way, so I was determined to flip it back the way I had just seen it...

I focused my thought, and IT FLIPPED!!

Wow, a whole new understanding came about, because I realized that I could be in control of it and could play around with it.

Over time, I practiced the VRI, and confirmed that there were four different ways of seeing my house in orientation.

Four different ways to see every place and the universe included.

With VRIs one sees that there are these 'extra dimensions' of the space that they inhabit.

They're an indication of something more than only 3 dimensions.

Some scientists have asked "where's any indication in our experience that there are higher dimensions?"

I think the VRI is a good candidate.

Thanks for your reply crystal sage... I would be interested to hear any more thoughts...

It would be great to hear if you've tried the Movie Theater Flip that I posted a picture of earlier - and any results.

some of my 'flips'... more like waking up in a shock from a dream... but you are awake going about ordinary day to day business.. suddenly you feel like you've had an electric bolt hit you.. you blink... and then the world appears slightly different... the colors are either brighter.. or duller.. trees that you drove past that morning.. are suddenly a few feet taller.. or even look years older... plants that you never noticed before suddenly appear and seem well established.. like they had always been there...

events that you remember .. either haven't happened yet.. or about to... or have happened in a slightly different way.... books you don't remember buying suddenly fall off shelves.. or appear in the stack you are looking thru...... things.. people.. ideas that you were 'wondering' about suddenly start happening.. one after the other... like you called them into your reality...

Another weird thing at the moment.. is the statue of what I thought was Shiva... but is actually of the Brahma has been doing 90_o flips on my mantel every few days.. for the last couple of months

It was weird... I did some reading up on it and it appears that 'Shiva' put a curse on 'Brahma' so that people would forget him.. overlook him... and it appears that he is awakening...I have had his statue for years... it is the first time it has decided to move...... I wonder Why????

Could it all be to do with the 2012 happenings?

are all the sleeping gods of myth awakening?

is it to do with the 'shift'?

Maybe there is something to all this...New Agey business...

[Hugh]

some of my 'flips'... more like waking up in a shock from a dream... but you are awake going about ordinary day to day business.. suddenly you feel like you've had an electric bolt hit you.. you blink... and then the world appears slightly different... the colors are either brighter.. or duller.. trees that you drove past that morning.. are suddenly a few feet taller.. or even look years older... plants that you never noticed before suddenly appear and seem well established.. like they had always been there...

events that you remember .. either haven't happened yet.. or about to... or have happened in a slightly different way.... books you don't remember buying suddenly fall off shelves.. or appear in the stack you are looking thru...... things.. people.. ideas that you were 'wondering' about suddenly start happening.. one after the other... like you called them into your reality...

Another weird thing at the moment.. is the statue of what I thought was Shiva... but is actually of the Brahma has been doing 90_o flips on my mantel every few days.. for the last couple of months

It was weird... I did some reading up on it and it appears that 'Shiva' put a curse on 'Brahma' so that people would forget him.. overlook him... and it appears that he is awakening...I have had his statue for years... it is the first time it has decided to move...... I wonder Why????

Could it all be to do with the 2012 happenings?

are all the sleeping gods of myth awakening?

is it to do with the 'shift'?

Maybe there is something to all this...New Agey business...

Wow... I've never found any of these sorts of things connected to my experiences of VRIs.

For example the statue turning independently... with VRIs, everything moves around together... the whole viewpoint... everything stays in exactly the same position relative to each other, but the entire viewpoint itself turns around... kind of like taking a cube and turning it around about a vertical axis... instantly.

[crystal sage]

Wow... I've never found any of these sorts of things connected to my experiences of VRIs.

For example the statue turning independently... with VRIs, everything moves around together... the whole viewpoint... everything stays in exactly the same position relative to each other, but the entire viewpoint itself turns around... kind of like taking a cube and turning it around about a vertical axis... instantly.

Actually the statue moves from the center of the cabinet to the edge of the cabinet with a 90 degree turn... It is like it is trying to put one of it's 4 faces forward... the one with the scepter ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma

It doesn't spook me too much as we once lived in one of the most haunted houses ever... at least 3 families have bought and and shortly afterwards sold it because of the hauntings, since we left... or so I was told by my old neighbor when I ran into her and had a chat about it 5 years ago... I just moved the Brahma statue back into position again last night... I will see how many days it takes to move again... ( By the way.. It can't be sliding into positions as there are often loose DVD's left there ( as it is on top of the TV cabinet...) and they haven't been pushed off.. so it must somehow float.. or lift itself up over them to get to that position... only once did it show another face when I found it precariously balanced at the edge of the cabinet one morning..having turned another way...

Edited August 11, 2009 by crystal sage

[crystal sage]

Actually the statue moves from the center of the cabinet to the edge of the cabinet with a 90 degree turn... It is like it is trying to put one of it's 4 faces forward... the one with the scepter ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahma

It doesn't spook me too much as we once lived in one of the most haunted houses ever... at least 3 families have bought and and shortly afterwards sold it because of the hauntings, since we left... or so I was told by my old neighbor when I ran into her and had a chat about it 5 years ago... I just moved the Brahma statue back into position again last night... I will see how many days it takes to move again... ( By the way.. It can't be sliding into positions as there are often loose DVD's left there ( as it is on top of the TV cabinet...) and they haven't been pushed off.. so it must somehow float.. or lift itself up over them to get to that position... only once did it show another face when I found it precariously balanced at the edge of the cabinet one morning..having turned another way...

LOL... thought I was having a VRI moment when driving everyone home... honestly thought I was going the right way.. but everyone insisted I was wrong... that I was going the opposite direction... .... but... for a change... I was right.,.. and they were having a VRI moment!!!!!

[Hugh]

LOL... thought I was having a VRI moment when driving everyone home... honestly thought I was going the right way.. but everyone insisted I was wrong... that I was going the opposite direction... .... but... for a change... I was right.,.. and they were having a VRI moment!!!!!

Hehe, that's funny crystal sage.

Most people get their bearings flipped around at times... it's great to be able to keep your bearings so that you don't get lost, I'm glad that you could.

I'm curious to find out if, when you were getting closer to home and your surroundings were getting familiar again to everyone, if anyone said something like "okay, everything just flipped totally around and now I know where I am!"

[lookingfortruth]

I believe I experienced it in the movie theater. as I was exiting I was like ya! I got it! but then after that I realized that it went away a lot faster than I thought. And then I wondered if I felt anything at all. next time I go to the theater ima try this again for sure! later

[Hugh]

I believe I experienced it in the movie theater. as I was exiting I was like ya! I got it! but then after that I realized that it went away a lot faster than I thought. And then I wondered if I felt anything at all. next time I go to the theater ima try this again for sure! later

Thanks for sharing your experiences with this lookingfortruth.

It sounds like what you experienced was a VRI between the time you entered the theatre and when you left, because when you came out, you realized that "I got it!" meaning that your viewpoint had flipped around from the normal one.

Then you mentioned that it went away.

This is very common, because the brain automatically flips one's viewpoint back to the normal one to give your normal bearings back.

You saw things from a flipped around perspective when you left the theatre, so your brain performed an automatic VRI to flip things back to normal.

The next time you try it at the theatre, try to be extremely aware of which direction that your bearings are in, as you enter the theatre, during the movie periodically, and after you leave.

Many people routinely experience VRI flips at the movies, because most theatres are similar in design, and one can change one's bearings between them with practice quite easily.

What is so cool to me, is that one can sit in one theatre, and visit four different orientations of that same theatre, and have a lot of fun flipping it around.

Any more comments about your experiences lookingfortruth and anyone else about this experience is much appreciated.

[crystal sage]

Hehe, that's funny crystal sage.

Most people get their bearings flipped around at times... it's great to be able to keep your bearings so that you don't get lost, I'm glad that you could.

I'm curious to find out if, when you were getting closer to home and your surroundings were getting familiar again to everyone, if anyone said something like "okay, everything just flipped totally around and now I know where I am!"

for only a very short time.. did they start to admit it... but after years of teasing me about this.. they tried to cover it up.. by saying that they were trying to find a short cut and started directing some really random turns that slowly corrected their error.. and took twice as long to get home...

Actually on the way home.. we came across many places .. sections of streets that we knew belonged somewhere else completely..... then the street looked strange.. but had familiar names that we knew were in the right direction... then suddenly they looked like streets we knew from many years ago like the streets that we drove thru to visit old friends then again.. we'd recognize street names that were local.. but looked different.. we used them anyway.. and finally.. found a real street that we recognised.. and managed to get home... mind you.. we got red a very large proportion of red lights...

It was a very weird trip.. most of the time.. I really knew we were headed the wrong way.. the others seemed perplexed.. but determined they were right... the strangeness of portions of the streets..brought back memories for conversations..... then of course they wouldn't admit it.. as they spent too many years teasing me about this and my sense of direction...

My sense of self.. felt this ( to me familiar sense of displacement ) the whole time.. as like I said.. it happens to me a lot.

It feels like a damaged spring... one that has been twisted and turned or extended too often...so that it got an extra kink... and some of the spring' force is gone..

or like when you spin really fast.. stop suddenly and momentarily lose your sense of direction..( a few seconds into this feeling)..

..By the way... it appears that practically all my family members have a problem automatically knowing their left from their right... they always need to take time to orientate themselves before instructing others to turn to the left or the right..

I always have to pause for a second...look at my watch hand to know which direction it is .. the others too have developed their own way too..

so it is subliminal too. ... the mind automatically registers the opposite...is sure of itself... but is wrong each time..

even now when.. I went to deliberately think of observing to the left.. I looked right...

So on some level we are permanently on the 180 frame of mind

Edited August 14, 2009 by crystal sage

[Hugh]

Actually on the way home.. we came across many places .. sections of streets that we knew belonged somewhere else completely..... then the street looked strange.. but had familiar names that we knew were in the right direction... then suddenly they looked like streets we knew from many years ago like the streets that we drove thru to visit old friends then again.. we'd recognize street names that were local.. but looked different.. we used them anyway.. and finally.. found a real street that we recognised.. and managed to get home... mind you.. we got red a very large proportion of red lights...

It was a very weird trip.. most of the time.. I really knew we were headed the wrong way.. the others seemed perplexed.. but determined they were right... the strangeness of portions of the streets..

Hearing these phrases, it sounds like VRIs were at least partially involved in what you were experiencing...

You were seeing familiar places but in different directions from how you had remembered them...

"Then suddenly they looked like streets we knew from many years ago." This sounds like a VRI flip back to a 'normal' viewpoint.

Thanks for further sharing your experiences crystal sage.

I came up with another diagram and explanation for the VRI.

Perhaps this illustrates things more clearly for everyone, so that it is more easily understood what a VRI actually does.

With VRIs, one can flip around any movie theatre that they are in to any of the four different positions, and feel just like if they had physically moved to each of the other theatres...

[bongorider]

Sorry to resurrect a dead topic, but I heard of VRI and did a search and this topic was one of the top hits,

and TBH I'm having trouble understanding this really.

I think everyone has come out of a subway and felt disorientated, this isn't VRI, it's just being confused.

From the descriptions on here of a VRI experience on here I'm having trouble imagining what exactly is supposed to change.

You say that you do not see things from a different angle, you see exactly the same things as before, but the whole scene including yourself is rotated 90 or 180 degrees. If this is the case, how is the change even perceptible?

My problem here is that 99% of the time, I have no idea if I'm pointing north/south/east/west anyway. I could probably make a guess based on the position of the sun, but otherwise it's not relevant to me, I'm not at sea. The movie theater example above is even more confusing. From each perspective the theatre would look identical, it's not even a mirror image, it's identical. So how are you even aware any shift has taken place? If it's just a "feeling" of pointing in a different direction, then surely this "feeling" must be some kind of brain malfunction since nothing has actually moved. Someone suggested that you sit in a movie theater for example and imagine that you're facing different directions and you would feel it shift. I've tried this and basically felt nothing. Once you enter a large building with no windows you basically have a very vague sense of your bearings anyway, I could imagine I was on the moon it would make no difference.

Even if you are very aware of your bearings, I don't see what the deal is. For example, you are out walking and you know that the mountains to your right are in the north, you suddenly experience a 90 degree VRI, everything shifts to the right. You continue walking, the mountains are still to your right as before, therefore the north is still on your right. Everything is as before, except you had a weird feeling.

Does this sound about right? Because if so the only thing going on seems to be you getting a weird feeling, possibly indicative of some kind of "brain malfunction" as wikipedia puts it.

I don't know about you but it seems to me that people who experience VRIs seem to have something that others lack, I think of it as their own internal cardinal points, like a compass, but fixed for that person, they always know their own personal bearings, which remain true in relation to the compass, but occasionally shift. Causing this sensation that everything has shifted, while nothing has actually moved. That's my only way of understanding it. People who experience VRI should understand that for people like me there is no definitive internal compass, sense of direction is a composite of memory, vision etc, a fluid sense that changes according to new data.

[Hugh]

You say that you do not see things from a different angle, you see exactly the same things as before, but the whole scene including yourself is rotated 90 or 180 degrees. If this is the case, how is the change even perceptible?

Hi bongorider and welcome to the forum.

The change is perceptible because it is rotated around relative to the other position.

If you were to stand up right now and look in the direction facing your computer, then turn completely around and look in the opposite direction, you would know that you had turned around 180 degrees relative to where you were right?

A similar knowledge comes with a 180 degree VRI, except the whole world and universe turns around with you.

It's a mental reorientation, just as in a necker cube flip, and it can be cognitively initiated at will with practice.

A lot of fun!

[Hugh]

Because if so the only thing going on seems to be you getting a weird feeling, possibly indicative of some kind of "brain malfunction" as wikipedia puts it.

When I saw that I kind of laughed.

Is the ability to see a necker cube illusion flip a "brain malfunction"? Nope, it's an ability.

Just as it's an ability to see one's surroundings from different perspectives using the Visual Reorientation Illusion.

Astronauts up in space in zero gravity can cognitively initiate VRIs around any of the three perceived axes, whereas here on Earth we can only do VRIs about the vertical axis because of gravity. We can flip around the walls on Earth but in space they can flip around the ceilings and floors and walls.

One astronaut said “It’s a feeling as though one could take this whole room and, by pushing a button, just rotate it around so that the ceiling up here would be the floor. It’s a marvelous feeling of power over space – over the space around one.”

That's what I've always felt about VRIs, that one can take a whole room and just rotate it around so that this wall becomes that one.

You can end up seeing the room you're in right now in four different ways, each one 90 or 180 degrees flipped around from the others.

[bongorider]

When I saw that I kind of laughed.

Is the ability to see a necker cube illusion flip a "brain malfunction"? Nope, it's an ability.

Just as it's an ability to see one's surroundings from different perspectives using the Visual Reorientation Illusion.

Astronauts up in space in zero gravity can cognitively initiate VRIs around any of the three perceived axes, whereas here on Earth we can only do VRIs about the vertical axis because of gravity. We can flip around the walls on Earth but in space they can flip around the ceilings and floors and walls.

One astronaut said “It’s a feeling as though one could take this whole room and, by pushing a button, just rotate it around so that the ceiling up here would be the floor. It’s a marvelous feeling of power over space – over the space around one.”

That's what I've always felt about VRIs, that one can take a whole room and just rotate it around so that this wall becomes that one.

You can end up seeing the room you're in right now in four different ways, each one 90 or 180 degrees flipped around from the others.

Well this is the problem, if EVERYTHING rotates, you're looking at exactly the same thing, your perspective is the SAME. You just have a "feeling" that something has moved, when in fact, nothing has moved, how is that useful?

For astronauts to orientate themselves using this, I can understand, as you want to familiarize yourself by forcing the up and down directions when there are no visual or sensual cues to automatically assign these, and sometimes, depending on where you want to move to, you might rotate "up" and "down" by 90 degrees or whatever. You are trying to override the deeply unnatural feeling of (space) walking along a wall or ceiling. By imagining this process, I think I finally understand what a VRI is. And I think it's something that could easily be acquired if you were actually in space. It just seems like a natural thought process.

But on the ground the ability to rotate something on a vertical axis seems wholly pointless and arbitrary. Rotating everything serves no purpose, as we already have anchored up and down, and the cardinal directions are all relative anyway. unlike the astronaut, it serves no purpose. Also the fact it can happen at random to people makes it seem more like a defect.

Edited July 19, 2010 by bongorider

[Hugh]

Well this is the problem, if EVERYTHING rotates, you're looking at exactly the same thing, your perspective is the SAME. You just have a "feeling" that something has moved, when in fact, nothing has moved, how is that useful?

It's useful because one's "normal" viewpoint of one's surroundings is restored, and one has their original "normal" bearings again.

After a VRI, one might say "Oh, now I know where I am!"

Another might say, "Everything just flipped... okay, now I know that my home is that way."

This is very useful information, for those that experience VRIs.

One might see a normally familiar environment flipped 90 or 180 degrees around and not recognize it, because it doesn't have it's normal orientational "feel".

It's like being in a whole new place.

Similarly, astronauts experience the same thing when entering various rooms of the space station.

They learn how to flip things around so that their orientational bearings are the same as they normally experience them.

It's the same phenomenon... a mental reorientation involving the flat surfaces around one's orientational bearings.

For astronauts to orientate themselves using this, I can understand, as you want to familiarize yourself by forcing the up and down directions when there are no visual or sensual cues to automatically assign these, and sometimes, depending on where you want to move to, you might rotate "up" and "down" by 90 degrees or whatever. You are trying to override the deeply unnatural feeling of (space) walking along a wall or ceiling. By imagining this process, I think I finally understand what a VRI is. And I think it's something that could easily be acquired if you were actually in space. It just seems like a natural thought process.

I'm glad that you understand what a VRI is, and that it is something that is a natural thought process.

That's the way I feel about it too.

But on the ground the ability to rotate something on a vertical axis seems wholly pointless and arbitrary. Rotating everything serves no purpose, as we already have anchored up and down, and the cardinal directions are all relative anyway. unlike the astronaut, it serves no purpose. Also the fact it can happen at random to people makes it seem more like a defect.

Why would you say on one hand that it's a "natural thought process" and a useful ability that could be "easily acquired" and on the other hand say it's a "defect"?

It's the same phenomenon, a visual reorientation that takes place in our brain.

Whether it happens with gravity or without it is immaterial.

Our subjective directional bearings do an instant flip.

One has a 3D viewpoint around oneself, that consists of 3 orthogonal axes; forward/back, right/left and up/down.

Whether it's the forward/back or up/down axes that does a 90 or 180 degree flip makes little difference, it's the same thing happening.

Some have a strong bearing sense, and they are more aware of a flip of their sense of direction.

I think why the up/down flip is more noticeable is because it doesn't normally happen to people on the ground, so when they experience it up in space it is more shocking.

But the forward/back flip happens to many people on the ground all the time.

Ever hear of someone say they got "turned around" in their directions?

Just as astronauts learn up in space how to flip around the up/down axis with a cognitive VRI, so can people on the ground learn how to do a forward/back cognitive VRI so they don't feel "turned around" anymore as well.

Some say "Hey, the sun is setting in what I think is the East!", and all they need to do is a cognitive VRI to flip it around so that it's setting in their normal orientational West.

____________________

The fact that all these extra viewpoints are available is the most interesting thing about this phenomenon to me.

Using cognitive VRIs one can flip things around to many different viewpoints - here on Earth one can see 4 different viewpoints of one's surroundings, each with their own distinct orientational feel.

Up in space, one can flip to 24 different orientational viewpoints using VRIs (4 rotational flips for each of the 3 axes pointed in 2 opposite ways each).

For me, this is evidence of a possible higher dimensional connection, with all these different views available to see things with.

[Professor T]

I don't think I can say that I've ever had a VRI experience, unless you count one or two roller-coaster and theme park rides that, unfortunately, ended with me being sick..

This is all very interesting though, you've put a lot of effort and study into this Hugh.. The Mirror world, Mirror experiment, and spacial perception ideas are interesting to say the least..

I remember when I was in holiday in Perth (Australia), that I was asked where north was, where the sea was.. Being out of my normal surroundings and in a foreign country with barely a recognizable landmark I soon discovered to everyone's laughter that my orientation was completely near 180 degrees wrong.. But I didn't experience a correction when I was shown to be wrong.. To be honest, I think I was disorientated the whole damn time until I left the country.. (it's too bloody flat)

Rarely, I'll find myself a little lost when leaving shops, buildings, picture theaters.. My orientation is usually a pretty well honed faculty, and I'm the sort of person who makes a mental map of an area, and always leaves unfamiliar places the same way I entered to ensure I don't end up lost.. And if I do find myself disorientated I don't feel or perceive any correction or reorientation, maybe because that faculty is drowned out by relief that I now know where I am..

I remember years ago, a Mirror that was temporarily shifted to an opposing wall beside a window, showed the landscape outside the house in a whole new light that at the time when I saw it reminded me of some forgotten dreams. I was young at the time, and sat there before the mirror for ages just staring at the reflections wondering why It felt so dreamlike and reminiscent of something familiar yet different.. It seemed like more than just a reflection, it was deeper than that.. Looking out the window the view was ordinary, but looking out the window through that Mirror the feel was quite different, very deep, very mysterious...

In Dreams my spacial orientation is in 99% of all my dreams, spot on.. But with curious overlapping at times.. Overlapping as in sometimes having a crazy sense that the location I am in is a composite of several locations at once.. I kind of trust my sense of location orientation in dreams because it always feels right.. It's a Knowing that I am in this country, and knowing that I am facing east or west, or (in cases of composite locations) it's knowing that it's a construct that in thought, I can triangulate.

The idea that higher dimensions exist and VRI's and alternative perceptions exists indicates this is a reality IMO.. And like you eloquently put it, the fact that all these extra viewpoints are available is the most interesting thing about this phenomenon. Perceptions can shift and change, placing laws on what you can and cant perceive is like writing laws for the illiterate to read.

Am going to give the Mirror experiment a go sometime soon.