Bible Contradictions

[MARAB0D]

Sheri, another fun was few weeks ago in Germany. Some 80yo pensioner put on a military style cap, armed himself with a dagger, machine-gun with 3 magazines, a pistol and a samurai sword. With all this gear he walked in the Assembly of JWs, easily passed the guards and tried to enter the praying hall, but fortunately the believers were timely evacuated before this mini-zonderkommand entered Is not it a sign?

[Jor-el]

jorel, i am a non believer and have had experiences that are unbeleiveable even by me ..lol lots of them ....

do you have any idea how many posters on um who have had out of the ordinary experiences and are NB's?

so you are not really saying anything hun........

Why Sheri,that has stimulated my curiosity, why don't you share one of those experiences with us all?

No subterfuge, just genuine curiosity...

[MARAB0D]

Why Sheri,that has stimulated my curiosity, why don't you share one of those experiences with us all?

No subterfuge, just genuine curiosity...

Are you going to explain her experiences your own way and try to convert her? But you may have noticed, a lot of people have some spiritual experiences, and Atheists are among them, so these experiences not necessarily lead to some conversion at all, specially into such a new religion as you represent. By the way, I also had my experiences - but hardly any church can explain them to me better than I can explain them myself, as this is what the experiences are for - to make us to think on who we are. After my experiences I re-read the Bible several times and found new dimensions to it, but it did not make me religious anyhow, as I understood that God in it is just a personal God of Abraham and later of his kin, and as I have my own personal God, it would be ridiculous if I suddenly start worshiping a someone else's one. I also understand that you are still worshiping the God of someone else instead of becoming God yourself - this is probably why you are interested with someone else's experiences, as you think you may find out more about God in them, which you yourself cannot find, but you cannot find only because you are looking for God in wrong places, in the churches, religions, tongues, books, while God is inside you and you can easily talk directly if you like to. You deny yourself being Son of God, hence this your constant frustration and desire to explain Bible to the others, as if they need this your explanation at all. Meanwhile it is in the Bible where God literally calls us all "gods", but I can only imagine your possible explanation of this fact!

[+Sherapy]

Why Sheri,that has stimulated my curiosity, why don't you share one of those experiences with us all?

No subterfuge, just genuine curiosity...

which one do you want to hear of, the one I call mystical?

I'll pm you....

[Jor-el]

which one do you want to hear of, the one I call mystical?

I'll pm you....

Thank you, I'll be waiting for it...

Sorry about leaving the debate half way, I followed V's link and watched her vid, I was fascinated by it although I had heard of her story some time ago, I think it was a documentary I saw. Then I watched a few more vids. Richard Dawkins has a vid on that site that was very interesting as well among others...

So, if I haven't answered anybody today, that is awaiting a response, I'll probably answer you tomorrow.

Edited August 24, 2009 by Jor-el

[+Sherapy]

Thank you, I'll be waiting for it...

Sorry about leaving the debate half way, I followed V's link and watched her vid, I was fascinated by it although I had heard of her story some time ago, I think it was a documentary I saw. Then I watched a few more vids. Richard Dawkins has a vid on that site that was very interesting as well among others...

So, if I haven't answered anybody today, that is awaiting a response, I'll probably answer you tomorrow.

wonderful, i have also delighted in the many vids V... has shared and its wonderful to see you exploring ....

i'll pm you in a bit...

[Homer]

But I cannot understand why YOU, a modern person, think that census is a Satanic act?

You asked this after your comment on my post you quoted, but I don’t know if the question was directed toward me or a general question to anyone.

I never said or thought that the census is a satanic act. My post explained(or tried to) the apparent ‘contradictions’ between 2Samuel 24:1, which stated God incited David, and 1Chronicles 21:1, which stated Satan(which could be another type of adversary like an enemy nation) moved David.

Although getting into the specifics of the census is digressing from the OP, I will make a quick comment. The census itself, only in the context of the verses in question, is not evil, but the reason for it was.

If we continue in the chapter of 2Samuel 24 a little…

2Samuel 24:10 Now David’s heart troubled him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have acted very foolishly."(NASB)

This is a time shortly after Israel had conquered a large portion of land from its enemies, and David’s motivation was either his pride in the size of his new nation or his reliance on manpower for his security, or both. In either case, it represented an unwarranted glorying in and dependence on human power instead of having faith in God.

[Doug1029]

Although getting into the specifics of the census is digressing from the OP, I will make a quick comment. The census itself, only in the context of the verses in question, is not evil, but the reason for it was.

If we continue in the chapter of 2Samuel 24 a little…

2Samuel 24:10 Now David’s heart troubled him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have acted very foolishly."(NASB)

This is a time shortly after Israel had conquered a large portion of land from its enemies, and David’s motivation was either his pride in the size of his new nation or his reliance on manpower for his security, or both. In either case, it represented an unwarranted glorying in and dependence on human power instead of having faith in God.

There is at least one scholarly opinion that the results of this census are given in Numbers 1 and 2. This misplacement has resulted in the legend of millions of "Israelites" wandering around Sinai. How they did it without leaving any archeological evidence is a mystery, but true believers will chalk it up as another "miracle."

Doug

[MARAB0D]

You asked this after your comment on my post you quoted, but I don’t know if the question was directed toward me or a general question to anyone.

I never said or thought that the census is a satanic act. My post explained(or tried to) the apparent ‘contradictions’ between 2Samuel 24:1, which stated God incited David, and 1Chronicles 21:1, which stated Satan(which could be another type of adversary like an enemy nation) moved David.

Although getting into the specifics of the census is digressing from the OP, I will make a quick comment. The census itself, only in the context of the verses in question, is not evil, but the reason for it was.

If we continue in the chapter of 2Samuel 24 a little…

2Samuel 24:10 Now David’s heart troubled him after he had numbered the people. So David said to the LORD, "I have sinned greatly in what I have done. But now, O LORD, please take away the iniquity of Your servant, for I have acted very foolishly."(NASB)

This is a time shortly after Israel had conquered a large portion of land from its enemies, and David’s motivation was either his pride in the size of his new nation or his reliance on manpower for his security, or both. In either case, it represented an unwarranted glorying in and dependence on human power instead of having faith in God.

I was surprised with the example itself. It seems pretty obvious that the books of Judges, Samuel,Ruth, Kings and Chronicles are presenting not religious but historical part of the Bible, they also refer to the missing Chronicles of Israeli state, probably available to the contemporary reader, to complete the picture. There is practically no religious content in them except for maybe the story of Solomon's wisdom. The part you mentioned describes absolutely objective conflict between the outgoing clerical power and rising might of secular Kings.

The religious state of Judges occurred to be unable to ensure survival of the nation and required support of military force, and this force always has a military leader, which is a King in current context. Samuel appears as a smart and cunning politician, trying to combine strong military force with religious rule, so he assumed himself a King-maker; however the reality was stronger and placed him in two linked conflicts with both Kings he appointed. Being burnt on disobedient Saul, he chose young shepherd David, hoping to preserve his own role as a grey cardinal near him - but it did not work too. Samuel uses religious references as a weapon of control over secular King, hence mentioning of God and Satan, as the Bible was written by the clergy even after Samuel.

The entire story reflects absolutely objective process of the power being passed from religion to the State, and religion becoming a tool of the state, not vice versa. Absolutely the same we see in Medieval Europe, where Roman Pope was trying to be such King-maker, and finally lost and ended up captured in Avignone. Samuel anathematized King Saul, and the Pope anathematized Ludwig of Bavaria, trying to control Holy Roman Empire of German Nations (2nd Reich). Obviously all references to supernatural forces were made by the desperate clergy, angry with the loss of political powers, so at least this part of the Bible is not "God's word" but a word of the hungry priests, marginalized by Saul, David and Solomon. Therefore the question itself is entirely academic and does nor relate to Theology anyhow.