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Poll: Obama Seen as Greater Failure than Bush

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Dr. D
So you agree that under both presidents the intelligence reports both claimed that Saddam had WMD?

We had a coalition of about 30 countries how is this not viable?

Actually, there were 35 nations but within months the number dwindled to only 29. At one time the White House website bragged about having 46 nations in the "Coalition of the Willing," but it was basically untrue. Condoleezza Rice described the coalition as “strong, broad and diverse”. Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld boasted that it “is larger than the coalition that existed during the Gulf War in 1991”.

The White House listed the Solomon Islands as a member of that coalition but Solomon Islands Prime Minister Allan Kemakeza declared : “The government is completely unaware of such statements being made, and therefore wishes to disassociate itself from the report.” Six other nations on the list of coalition members actually had no military. Costa Rica and Turkey were on the list but never participated in any form.

The truth is that at the time of the invasion, only four other nations participated . Most noted was the absence of France, Germany, Russia and China in this "international effort."

Actually, Bush lied shortly after the invasion when he said, ""coalition forces have begun striking selective targets" and that "more than 35 countries are giving crucial support" when it is inconceivable to believe that he did not know better.

One third of all the members of the so-called coalition provided less than 1,000 troops all together! And let's not forget that the coalition included such powerful nations as Honduras, El Salvador, Mongolia, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Moldova, Azerbaijan, Latvia, etc.

Do I agree that both presidents had intelligence saying that Saddam had WMDs? No.

Reasons given for the attack were: Retaliation for previous attacks on U.S. embassies in several African countries. The alleged use of the factory for the processing of VX nerve agent. For alleged ties between the owners of the plant and the terrorist group al-Qaeda.

It was not claimed that Iraq possessed WMDs but that the lab was in the process of creating the nerve agent. Regardless, it was an irresponsible, abhorrent action that should never have happened. I blame Clinton for this as much as I blame Bush for the invasion of Iraq.

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The Silver Thong
Its a well known fact he was Saddam Hussein paid $25000 bonuses to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. here is one example

"Congressional investigators say Saddam Hussein used oil-for-food cash to make payments of $15,000 to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers."

Source

How much does America pay Halibuton or Blackwater my friend? What does a CIA agent get paid to incite terrorism or riots ?

As was said in another thread, best not to throw rocks when living in a glass house.

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Caesar
How much does America pay Halibuton or Blackwater my friend? What does a CIA agent get paid to incite terrorism or riots ?

As was said in another thread, best not to throw rocks when living in a glass house.

Are those terrorist groups...or more on the discussion, do these groups sponser state sponsered terrorism?

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Caesar
Do I agree that both presidents had intelligence saying that Saddam had WMDs? No.

Reasons given for the attack were: Retaliation for previous attacks on U.S. embassies in several African countries. The alleged use of the factory for the processing of VX nerve agent. For alleged ties between the owners of the plant and the terrorist group al-Qaeda.

It was not claimed that Iraq possessed WMDs but that the lab was in the process of creating the nerve agent. Regardless, it was an irresponsible, abhorrent action that should never have happened. I blame Clinton for this as much as I blame Bush for the invasion of Iraq.

"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

Source CNN

What does this mean?

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The Silver Thong
Are those terrorist groups...or more on the discussion, do these groups sponser state sponsered terrorism?

Are those groups part of the military ? aka Blackwater and what do they do really as I could post some pretty damning things about them. Yes Blackwater is a terrorist group just one you happen to agree with sponsored by guess who?

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ninjadude
Its a well known fact he was Saddam Hussein paid $25000 bonuses to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. here is one example

"Congressional investigators say Saddam Hussein used oil-for-food cash to make payments of $15,000 to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers."

Source

and yet that same article says:

"No departure from any standard caused or contributed in any way to the abuse at the oil-for-food program," the bank's lead counsel Robert S. Bennett said. "There are simply no connections."

NP denied the allegations.

"The bank did not have any responsibilities to do due diligence regarding third parties," Bennett said. "Our only client and customer here was the United Nations."

"facts" not in evidence. Henry Hyde was one of the most corrupt politicians in history.

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ninjadude
Are those terrorist groups...or more on the discussion, do these groups sponser state sponsered terrorism?

Haliburton, Blackwater, CIA?? yep

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The Silver Thong
Haliburton, Blackwater, CIA?? yep

You should have just copied and pasted my response 4 or 5 posts up :P

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Caesar
and yet that same article says:

"No departure from any standard caused or contributed in any way to the abuse at the oil-for-food program," the bank's lead counsel Robert S. Bennett said. "There are simply no connections."

NP denied the allegations.

"The bank did not have any responsibilities to do due diligence regarding third parties," Bennett said. "Our only client and customer here was the United Nations."

"facts" not in evidence. Henry Hyde was one of the most corrupt politicians in history.

Saddam payed families of suicide bombers grant money, thats what I'm posting about, not the oil for food program money to terrorists.

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Caesar
Haliburton, Blackwater, CIA?? yep

Along with Bill Clinton, Jesus and Mary :P

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ExpandMyMind
Its a well known fact he was Saddam Hussein paid $25000 bonuses to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. here is one example

"Congressional investigators say Saddam Hussein used oil-for-food cash to make payments of $15,000 to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers."

Source

giving money to the families of dead bombers is in no way the same thing as funding a terrorist organisation.

and was there a follow up investigation? because i find it hard believing anything that comes from the political system of the united states. especially since 2001 - and also especially when you consider the time the investigation took place, with public support for both wars (but especially iraq) faltering in a big way. too many agendas in washington to believe a congressional investigation of this nature without actual facts. none are presented in the article.

Edited by expandmymind

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The Silver Thong
Along with Bill Clinton, Jesus and Mary :P

:o Not Bill !!!!!

My god man, have mercy :cry:

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The Silver Thong
Saddam payed families of suicide bombers grant money, thats what I'm posting about, not the oil for food program money to terrorists.

Your government does the same freakin thing man. They send people to die over nothing. Ok ok there is the oil and the shipping lanes but really. Cut it out.

4000 plus suicide Americans eh over what? The safety of the Iraqi people

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acidhead
Its a well known fact he was Saddam Hussein paid $25000 bonuses to the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. here is one example

"Congressional investigators say Saddam Hussein used oil-for-food cash to make payments of $15,000 to $25,000 to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers."

Source

Taken from your CBS news source: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/17/...ain656284.shtml

Congressional committee chairman was Henry Hyde.

Henry Hyde... A Chicago-based congressman who was a member of the House Judiciary Committee from his freshman term, and its chairman from 1995 until 2001...

-he was the only member of the congress sued for "gross negligence" in an Savings and Loans Scandal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hyde#Sa...nd_Loan_scandal

-As a member of the congressional panel investigating the Iran-Contra affair, Hyde vigorously defended the Ronald Reagan administration, and a number of the participants who had been accused of various crimes, particularly Oliver North.... Hyde argued that although various individuals had lied in testimony before Congress, their actions were excusable because they were in support of the goal of fighting communism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hyde#Ir...a_investigation

-A relevation of an extramarital sexual affair he was involved in was reported in the press as Hyde was spearheading the impeachment hearings of President Bill Clinton over the Monica Lewinsky scandal. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hyde#Clinton_impeachment

-In the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks, Hyde, then serving as Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, cautioned against attacking Iraq in the absence of clear evidence of Iraqi complicity, telling CNN's Robert Novak that it "would be a big mistake." One year later, however, he voted in support of the October 10, 2002 House resolution that authorized the president to go to war with Iraq. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Hyde#9....nd_the_Iraq_War

Henry Hyde (R-IL) during the hearing on H.J. Res. 114, "Authorization For Use of Military Force Against Iraq." Hyde was discussing Ron Paul’s motion, based on the Constitution, to issue a Congressional declaration of war before launching the invasion of Iraq.

Here is what Hyde said:

"There are things in the Constitution that have been overtaken by events, by time. Declaration of war is one of them. There are things no longer relevant to a modern society. Why declare war if you don’t have to? We are saying to the President, use your judgment. So, to demand that we declare war is to strengthen something to death. You have got a hammerlock on this situation, and it is not called for. Inappropriate, anachronistic, it isn’t done anymore."

Henry Hyde passed away in 2007 after complications from open heart surgery.

Edited by acidhead

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acidhead
and yet that same article says:

"No departure from any standard caused or contributed in any way to the abuse at the oil-for-food program," the bank's lead counsel Robert S. Bennett said. "There are simply no connections."

NP denied the allegations.

"The bank did not have any responsibilities to do due diligence regarding third parties," Bennett said. "Our only client and customer here was the United Nations."

"facts" not in evidence. Henry Hyde was one of the most corrupt politicians in history.

I agree

Look back at my last post.... his so-called public service record has corruption written all over it....

Would be surprised, in the least if he received 'special' favors or reach arounds during his days serving his masters.

Edited by acidhead

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Caesar
giving money to the families of dead bombers is in no way the same thing as funding a terrorist organisation.

So you don't find anything wrong with rewarding suicide bombers?

and was there a follow up investigation? because i find it hard believing anything that comes from the political system of the united states. especially since 2001 - and also especially when you consider the time the investigation took place, with public support for both wars (but especially iraq) faltering in a big way. too many agendas in washington to believe a congressional investigation of this nature without actual facts. none are presented in the article.

Heres a source from the Guardian but then again still wouldn't see any evidence if it jumped in your lap and called you mama!

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Caesar
Your government does the same freakin thing man.

They do not send people to die

4000 plus suicide Americans eh over what? The safety of the Iraqi people

Oh it was a 4000 plus suicide? you really make yourself look good with posts like that. :rolleyes:

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Dr. D
"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

Source CNN

What does this mean?

It is easy to define an action by one quote but when combined with others, the picture changes. Clinton administration officials said the aim of the mission was to "degrade" Iraq's ability to manufacture and use weapons of mass destruction, not to eliminate it.

As it is with politicians, facts were misrepresented and a sense of drama instilled but conservatives had every right to suspect that the bombing was really intended as a distraction from the impeachment hearings. In reality, the bombing included weapons research and development installations, air defense systems, weapon and supply depots, and the barracks and command headquarters of Saddam's elite Republican Guard.

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acidhead
So you don't find anything wrong with rewarding suicide bombers?

Heres a source from the Guardian but then again still wouldn't see any evidence if it jumped in your lap and called you mama!

from your source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/mar/13/israel

In January, Mahmoud Jamasi strapped explosives to a raft and guided it towards the vessel off the Gaza coast, but was blown to bits by Israeli gunfire before he could do harm to anyone else.

Still, the Hamas fighter was the absent star of yesterday's gathering at the Gaza YMCA as the only suicide bomber to be honoured by President Saddam's envoys, who handed out $245,000 (£152,000) to the relatives of those who died recently in the intifada, or suffered other losses such as having their homes destroyed by Israeli forces.

Altogether, more than $1m is to be handed out in Gaza in the coming days in the Iraqi leader's name - probably the last distribution of its kind if the Americans forge ahead with their invasion plans.

The money is allocated on a sliding scale: $25,000 to the families of suicide bombers; $10,000 to fighters killed resisting the Israelis; $1,000 for a battle injury and $5,000 in compensation for a demolished home.

Yesterday, there were 23 families on hand to take President Saddam's money. Those honoured included a Palestinian policeman and a host of young men who sought glory in a largely futile death. Few had succeeded in sacrificing Israeli lives with their own.

With each cheque, drawn on the Cairo Amman bank, came a large certificate decorated with the Iraqi and Palestinian flags. "A gift from President Saddam Hussein to the family of a martyr in the al-Aqsa intifada," the inscription read. "To those who irrigate the land with their blood. You deserve the honour you will receive from God and you will defeat all who bow before your will."

Mr Mojhrani, a maths teacher who earns only a few dollars a day, received a $10,000 cheque.

"I'm going to fix my house," he said. "Saddam Hussein is a generous man."

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ExpandMyMind
So you don't find anything wrong with rewarding suicide bombers?

well technically he is alleged to have rewarded their families, not the bombers. and please, could you point out where i said i don't see anything wrong with it? i said it wasn't the same as funding a terrorist organisation...

and that article is better. i actually like the guardian. but it wasn't the actual article you posted that i had a problem with, it was the congressional investigation.

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The Silver Thong
They do not send people to die

Oh it was a 4000 plus suicide? you really make yourself look good with posts like that. :rolleyes:

I was making a comparison as to your post that Saddam paid people to die. Are you saying that the soldiers that were killed on the American side were not paid? How much did it cost America to put Saddam in power?

Looking good is not my concern.

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acidhead
I was making a comparison as to your post that Saddam paid people to die. Are you saying that the soldiers that were killed on the American side were not paid? How much did it cost America to put Saddam in power?

Looking good is not my concern.

Do families in the American military get compensation when their military family members are killed?

I recall the 911 victims families were compensted around $300 000 USD and signed a waiver not to sue.

Family members who did NOT take the money or sign a waiver are STILL waiting for a court to hear their case.

Remember the woman who was killed in the plane that fell out of the sky last winter in Buffalo?

Bevery Ekert was her name. My Silence Cannot Be Bought http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1220-04.htm

picture1fmc.jpg

They are still waiting for an independent investigation.... 8 years and rolling... tick tock

Edited by acidhead

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Caesar
I was making a comparison as to your post that Saddam paid people to die. Are you saying that the soldiers that were killed on the American side were not paid? How much did it cost America to put Saddam in power?

Saddam did not only pay people to die but to target and kill innocent people, the U.S. didn't send people to die!

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Dr. D
So you don't find anything wrong with rewarding suicide bombers?

Heres a source from the Guardian but then again still wouldn't see any evidence if it jumped in your lap and called you mama!

I know this is not going to be a very popular thing to say but it is something that needs saying. One of the grave errors in international affairs is the ability to ignore the history and culture of a people of a different heritage and belief system and to evaluate it by the standards of our culture and our beliefs.

The concept of self sacrifice as portrayed by suicide bombers is historic and not exclusive to Arabs. The Jews used suicide attacks against the Romans, mainly the Zealots and Sicarii. If we want to be honest, a significant percentage of recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor sacrificed themselves to eliminate the enemy's stronghold. The WWII kamikaze cannot be ignored.

In the Moslem culture, children have a responsibility to honor and provide for their parents. When one becomes a suicide bomber, therefore, parents have not only lost a child but have lost much of the security for their futures. When Hussein sent checks to these families in honor of their "martyr children," it was translated by the Western World as sponsoring terrorism but within the Arab world, it was subsistence far more than a reward.

Which was right? Who can legitimately say?

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Caesar
well technically he is alleged to have rewarded their families, not the bombers.

Its a fact that he gave money to suicide bomber famalies. and many people in Isreal died. like the bus attack by Izat Jarradat, the shop attack by Fuad Isma’il Ahmad al-Hurani, the Zion Square attack by Usama Muhammad Id Bahr and Nabil Mahmud Jamil Halbiyyah all recieved checks by Saddam

Iraqi Support for and Encouragement of Palestinian Terrorism

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