GH and GHI:

[sinewave]

Curious.. if you dislike it so much, why do you watch it? If it's for humour, then why toss up this huge fit about it?

I like to be aware of the information being dispensed about the paranormal for the same reasons space agencies like to know about orbiting debris. Not because the subterfuge itself is all that interesting but because it is good to know what is passing for critical thinking these days.

[Wookietim]

I like to be aware of the information being dispensed about the paranormal for the same reasons space agencies like to know about orbiting debris. Not because the subterfuge itself is all that interesting but because it is good to know what is passing for critical thinking these days.

Does GH or GHI even pass for "Critical Thinking" anymore for anyone other than the truly gullible?

[Stormcrow]

Curious.. if you dislike it so much, why do you watch it? If it's for humour, then why toss up this huge fit about it?

I think poor RM is simply unsatisfied with their own meager, normal life. You can't have the kind of fame and fortune that TAPS has stumbled into, so let's say bad things and make them look like dreadfully horrible people so we can feel better about ourselves.

[sinewave]

Does GH or GHI even pass for "Critical Thinking" anymore for anyone other than the truly gullible?

No, it has always been worthless in terms of valid information but there are PLENTY who believe what is shown is real.

[Wookietim]

No, it has always been worthless in terms of valid information but there are PLENTY who believe what is shown is real.

That is a sad state of affairs... I wonder if those same people assumed that everything they saw on "Seinfeld" was real or if they thought "Arrested Development" was a documentary?

[sinewave]

People tend to gravitate towards things that validate their beliefs. It is easier than thinking things all the way through on your own.

[Purple Pisces]

That is a sad state of affairs... I wonder if those same people assumed that everything they saw on "Seinfeld" was real or if they thought "Arrested Development" was a documentary?

Well I am one of "those" people who does believe that what is shown on Ghost Hunters is real, and no I don't think Seinfield is real!!

I don't understand where everyone's negativity is coming from! Yes it's a show, I understand that, but you all have to realize that before Ghost Hunters was a show TAPS had been doing investigatons for 15 years. And please don't feed me a line that the show has been presseured by the Syfy network to fake evidence because there have been episodes where absolutlety nothing has been found!

The fact of the matter is is that you guys aren't there when the show is being filmed so how would you know anything about what is going on!! If it makes you all feel better to nit pick about EVRY LITTLE THING on a show you dislike so much be my guess, but my advice to you is get a new hobby!!

Edited September 30, 2009 by Purple Pisces

[Wookietim]

I don't understand where everyone's negativity is coming from! Yes it's a show, I understand that, but you all have to realize that before Ghost Hunters was a show TAPS had been doing investigaton for 15 years. And please don't feed me a line that the show has been presseured by the Syfy network to fake evidence because there have been episodes where absolutlety nothing has been found!

Just because they existed for years before that does not automatically lend them legitimacy. I am sure John Edwards was "Talking to dead people" on street corners for years before he got a show, but that doesn't make it any less of a con either...

The fact of the matter is is that you guys aren't there when the show is being filmed so how would you know anything about what is going on!! If it makes you all feel better to nit pick about EVRY LITTLE THING on a show you dislike so much be my guess, but my advice to you is get a new hobby!!

So people are not allowed to question the supposed "Evidence"? That is the point where the show stops attracting researchers and starts attracting acolytes to a religion - when the show can no longer actually be questioned.

[Purple Pisces]

So people are not allowed to question the supposed "Evidence"? That is the point where the show stops attracting researchers and starts attracting acolytes to a religion - when the show can no longer actually be questioned.

I think it's absolutely normal to want to question evidence, I do it myself, but a lot of what I see going on is an uneccessary and shameless criticsm of how people look and a boatload of uneducated assumptions!! Like I said if you're not there, how can you sit here and say with fact what is going on.

[Stormcrow]

The fact of the matter is is that you guys aren't there when the show is being filmed so how would you know anything about what is going on!! If it makes you all feel better to nit pick about EVRY LITTLE THING on a show you dislike so much be my guess, but my advice to you is get a new hobby!!

Strangely enough, I actually agree with that.

I think it's a good idea to question what you see, I question TAPS and Ghost Hunters (and I do stress them as separate entities, one is a real life group with individuals and one is a television show under a contract you have never read before) just as I question any other paranormal investigative unit or their supposed collection of evidence. Questioning is good.

Bashing is bad. Especially when you have never met these individuals for yourself. I've said it numerous times before, but I'll just go ahead and say it again because I have nothing better to do at the moment. TAPS and Ghost Hunters aren't the same thing, that's like saying Hugh Jackman really is Wolverine. One is a real life human being (in the case of TAPS, clearly, "beings") with feelings and purpose, the second, well, we can pretend. Because Ghost Hunters is a television show it is automatically assumed it is for entertainment purposes only.

I have nothing against people who want to believe in the evidence they find, I personally think it's interesting and I love to watch it regardless. It may or may not be real, it's television, you really need to keep that in mind. Only the team and the producers know what really goes on when the camera is off.

In the meantime, I think some people do need to practice common courtesy and grow up a little. Insulting the practices of individuals, and in some cases the individuals themselves, is just bad taste. Meet them, get to know them, before you start posting rumors about drug addiction and other nonsense. I think that also goes to say that any person can like what they want and should not be persecuted for their taste in television. You need to separate reality from the flat screen, but like it if you want--liking something never hurt anyone.

You really do need a new hobby if you can't find anything better to do than to watch a bad show and then come to a forum and post your grievances with it. Do something productive.

[Wookietim]

I think it's absolutely normal to want to question evidence, I do it myself, but a lot of what I see going on is an uneccessary and shameless criticsm of how people look and a boatload of uneducated assumptions!! Like I said if you're not there, how can you sit here and say with fact what is going on.

I, nor the person you were responding to, were attacking TAPS based on what they look like or basing anything on assumptions. I have maintained a very simple POV throughout this :

1. TAPS approaches each investigation with a question : "Is this place haunted?" That is an incorrect approach if one wants to find evidence - since no actual proof has been advanced to prove a single "Haunting" yet, no proof that they get can actually further than research. They are starting with step 2 or 3 and ignoring step 1... or building a house roof first.

2. TAPS has a tendency to see their operations as a money making venture. When I see an organization that spends time making advertisements, selling T-Shirts and magazines and selling tickets to live appearances, I see celebrities - not investigators. I know - TAPS activities cost money. But they have a TV show that provides that money. They are using TAPS to make money, not investigate.

3. When evidence is produced, that evidence had better stand up to intense scrutiny - outside of TAPS. I don't see anywhere I can get my hands on the RAW video or audio they collect... I can go out and buy the DVD's, but that is edited and processed - meaning that there is no independent outside verification of their methods or conclusions.

[Stormcrow]

I think it's absolutely normal to want to question evidence, I do it myself, but a lot of what I see going on is an uneccessary and shameless criticsm of how people look and a boatload of uneducated assumptions!! Like I said if you're not there, how can you sit here and say with fact what is going on.

They downloaded free movie editing programs and downloaded GH clips from Youtube, and dissected them to piece together supposedly fraudulent activity. They're obviously pros at video analysis. (They = general naysayer that has the audacity to pretend they're a criminal expert.)

I'm also quite tired of people saying such and such is automatically fake because they weren't there to see it themselves. It really doesn't matter if it's fake or not, Jesus Christ, it's fun to watch. Believing evidence from GH isn't as detrimental to ones health as, say, believing that Monk is a real detective and you need him to find out who killed your pooch. There is a minor difference, actually.

[Stormcrow]

2. TAPS has a tendency to see their operations as a money making venture. When I see an organization that spends time making advertisements, selling T-Shirts and magazines and selling tickets to live appearances, I see celebrities - not investigators. I know - TAPS activities cost money. But they have a TV show that provides that money. They are using TAPS to make money, not investigate.

That I do agree with, but I also will say that just about anyone would also take that opportunity. Would you pass up the chance to gain more money? I sure wouldn't... If I had the opportunity, I'd try to milk it for all it's worth--you never know when it's going to end, so you better make enough now to last you. I do see TAPS as celebrities, but I also see them as people who are good at what they do. Sure, they have money and they reel it in pretty fast, but that doesn't really make them bad people. Like I said, I'd love to have that kind of opportunity; doesn't make me a bad person, though.

3. When evidence is produced, that evidence had better stand up to intense scrutiny - outside of TAPS. I don't see anywhere I can get my hands on the RAW video or audio they collect... I can go out and buy the DVD's, but that is edited and processed - meaning that there is no independent outside verification of their methods or conclusions.

They used to have some raw, unedited files available at their website for free download. I don't know if they still have those now or not, but based on that third bullet I'm going to guess that's a "no". But yeah, I've downloaded some video and audio from their site several years ago to take a look at myself. If you contacted TAPS personally with polite inquiries and concerns, there's the possibility that they may contact you back. Can't really say that they don't have it available until you try.

[Wookietim]

That I do agree with, but I also will say that just about anyone would also take that opportunity. Would you pass up the chance to gain more money? I sure wouldn't... If I had the opportunity, I'd try to milk it for all it's worth--you never know when it's going to end, so you better make enough now to last you. I do see TAPS as celebrities, but I also see them as people who are good at what they do. Sure, they have money and they reel it in pretty fast, but that doesn't really make them bad people. Like I said, I'd love to have that kind of opportunity; doesn't make me a bad person, though.

But the fact that they take the opportunity to gain money from their operations shows that they are not above sacrificing credibility in favor of cold, hard cash... which calls into question their conclusions.

They used to have some raw, unedited files available at their website for free download. I don't know if they still have those now or not, but based on that third bullet I'm going to guess that's a "no". But yeah, I've downloaded some video and audio from their site several years ago to take a look at myself. If you contacted TAPS personally with polite inquiries and concerns, there's the possibility that they may contact you back. Can't really say that they don't have it available until you try.

"Used to have" being the operative phrase. I always found it suspicious that, just as the siren song of cash started talking to them that those raw files started disappearing from their site...

And one should not have to contact them personally. TAPS ought to be going out of their way to encourage people to verify their ultimate conclusions - if they are being completely honest. Even if they are shown to be wrong by another outside observer, if they are above board on this they would welcome that as constructive criticism. Instead, as soon as the money started coming in they shut down independent verification or criticism.

[Stormcrow]

"Used to have" being the operative phrase. I always found it suspicious that, just as the siren song of cash started talking to them that those raw files started disappearing from their site...

And one should not have to contact them personally. TAPS ought to be going out of their way to encourage people to verify their ultimate conclusions - if they are being completely honest. Even if they are shown to be wrong by another outside observer, if they are above board on this they would welcome that as constructive criticism. Instead, as soon as the money started coming in they shut down independent verification or criticism.

Touché.

Personally, I will wait to meet TAPS in person before I pass judgment on their behavior--or at least, their mentality. I can see where the ill feelings come from, and like I said, I do question a lot of stuff they do too. But because I know a lot of people who have met them, and they all say such good things, I just want to wait to see it for myself. Sadly, they haven't had a convention any nearer to me than North Carolina so it could take a while...

All in all though, I do still think TAPS and GH should be treated separately, despite all of the ill feeling.

But really, we all know the paranormal is srs bsns.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Ebonykrow

[Wookietim]

Touché.

Personally, I will wait to meet TAPS in person before I pass judgment on their behavior--or at least, their mentality. I can see where the ill feelings come from, and like I said, I do question a lot of stuff they do too. But because I know a lot of people who have met them, and they all say such good things, I just want to wait to see it for myself. Sadly, they haven't had a convention any nearer to me than North Carolina so it could take a while...

I have nothing against them personally - therefore meeting them on a one to one basis is moot in my opinion. I think that their basic approach is unscientific, and that their evidence is suspect (Since nobody can look at it other than them). Meeting the personally, going out for a drink, talking to them or dating their daughters will not change that opinion... Seeing them start sharing their evidence and changing the criteria they use for gathering it would, however, change my opinion.

I cannot say that they are, indeed, faking evidence. I am not saying that they are outright charlatans - yet. I am saying that they are open to very real questions about their approach and their evidence... And until they fulfill those needs stated above, they will remain questionable.

Let's face it - even if they are 100% honest, they can make mistakes and not consider all possible explanations. They are not all knowing and they are not supermen... Therefore they should welcome criticism rather than avoid it. Welcoming criticism would actually be beneficial for them - it would add credence to their activities which could only increase their popularity...

[Stormcrow]

I have nothing against them personally - therefore meeting them on a one to one basis is moot in my opinion. I think that their basic approach is unscientific, and that their evidence is suspect (Since nobody can look at it other than them). Meeting the personally, going out for a drink, talking to them or dating their daughters will not change that opinion... Seeing them start sharing their evidence and changing the criteria they use for gathering it would, however, change my opinion.

I cannot say that they are, indeed, faking evidence. I am not saying that they are outright charlatans - yet. I am saying that they are open to very real questions about their approach and their evidence... And until they fulfill those needs stated above, they will remain questionable.

Let's face it - even if they are 100% honest, they can make mistakes and not consider all possible explanations. They are not all knowing and they are not supermen... Therefore they should welcome criticism rather than avoid it. Welcoming criticism would actually be beneficial for them - it would add credence to their activities which could only increase their popularity...

In the first season I rather liked their approach, it's very different than the way people go about investigating around here. But I have noticed, especially in the most recent season, their abandonment of scientific explanation. There is a huge difference between the first and current seasons in their methods of investigation, too. To be honest, I haven't watched a whole episode of GH since the second season at all because I don't like the methods they're using on camera. It's undoubtedly for show, but I liked when they were able to explain something as a normal occurrence. I'm sure they weren't perfect with that in the first season, either, but it would be marginally difficult to approach the paranormal from a perfectly scientific point of view. I still think that TAPS is more inclined to react to things (in private residences, off camera) as they did in the first season, without the "fancy" equipment or the "spiritual" element (dowsing rods, using personal stories and feeling as back-up) anything like that, but that's just what I think... No easy way to find out.

Anyway, I see what you're saying there, and I agree that groups should openly share their "evidence" for public scrutiny. Not many groups around here do that either--I really liked that TAPS posted some of their findings on the website and even used a lot of their findings to explain not-so-paranormal phenomena. I wonder if they still have that section of the site up? Dunno.

If things start to escalate too much for them there's not much that they can do. They can either explain some things and "clean up" their act, or get canceled. I don't see them "cleaning up", that's deadly to a reputation. SyFy has the final say in the future of Ghost Hunters and I do think that if they (SyFy) continue this portrayal of TAPS as it's developed in the third and fourth season then there will be nothing left for either of them. I believe that the show, and the team, would be much better off if they returned to their tactics as illustrated in the first season, and it would undoubtedly be better for the team itself if they could drop SyFy. But yeah, I probably wouldn't cut myself off from a money machine if it meant funding what I love doing. Can't win for losing?

[sinewave]

Well I am one of "those" people who does believe that what is shown on Ghost Hunters is real, and no I don't think Seinfield is real!!

I don't understand where everyone's negativity is coming from! Yes it's a show, I understand that, but you all have to realize that before Ghost Hunters was a show TAPS had been doing investigatons for 15 years. And please don't feed me a line that the show has been presseured by the Syfy network to fake evidence because there have been episodes where absolutlety nothing has been found!

The fact of the matter is is that you guys aren't there when the show is being filmed so how would you know anything about what is going on!! If it makes you all feel better to nit pick about EVRY LITTLE THING on a show you dislike so much be my guess, but my advice to you is get a new hobby!!

If nothing ever happened, no one would watch and they would lose sponsors. Given that, the notion of SyFy or the production company "juicing" the show for ratings is perfectly valid. After all, TV producers are not known for their honor and integrity. Every now and then J&G come up empty or "expose" a client's shenanigans for good measure. There is way too much incentive for them to find something to take any of it seriously.

[Sceptical believer]

"You mean Dracula's Castle? V'lad Dracul was a real person, Frankenstein was a fictional character by Mary Shelly. As far as the Lisheen Ruins, I didn't see GHI go there, I saw GH go there with Grant and Jason, and they asked Barry from GHI to join them because he had been there before, and because Steve is scared to fly and could not make the trip."

there is a Frankenstien castle in germany, its neaer Darmstadt if I remember correctly. in fact most every halloween theres a big party there, Michael Cough.. jackson even played and was shut down by the Politzi for noise pollution LOL. I went there at least three different halloweens. pretty cool Time I gotta say.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Sceptical believer

[Wookietim]

"You mean Dracula's Castle? V'lad Dracul was a real person, Frankenstein was a fictional character by Mary Shelly. As far as the Lisheen Ruins, I didn't see GHI go there, I saw GH go there with Grant and Jason, and they asked Barry from GHI to join them because he had been there before, and because Steve is scared to fly and could not make the trip."

there is a Frankenstien castle in germany, its neaer Darmstadt if I remember correctly. in fact most every halloween theres a big party there, Michael Cough.. jackson even played and was shut down by the Politzi for noise pollution LOL. I went there at least three different halloweens. pretty cool Time I gotta say.

Actually, there are speculations that Shelley based the character of Dr Frankenstein on a real person... Obviously not a doctor that reanimated dead tissue, but a doctor that did do what we would call today fringe science...

[ReconMarine]

I think poor RM is simply unsatisfied with their own meager, normal life. You can't have the kind of fame and fortune that TAPS has stumbled into, so let's say bad things and make them look like dreadfully horrible people so we can feel better about ourselves.

My meager, normal life has been filled with 22 combat deployments as a United States Marine.

I retired as a Master Gunnery Sergeant, in 23 years of service.

My success in life has been measured in the Marines I brought back home walking upright.

What have you done?

I don't have to make Grant or TAPS or anyone else look bad. I do not have to manufacture facts to pose an opinion. The facts and their evidence is there for everyone to disseminate.

Why do you have a problem with people debating and questioning something posed to them as "reality", when it is obvious the reality is lacking...

Thank you however for assuming that because people question the motives of others it must be due a deficiency in their own lives.

Semper Fi

[ReconMarine]

Strangely enough, I actually agree with that.

Bashing is bad. Especially when you have never met these individuals for yourself.....In the meantime, I think some people do need to practice common courtesy and grow up a little. Insulting the practices of individuals, and in some cases the individuals themselves, is just bad taste. Meet them, get to know them, before you start posting rumors about drug addiction and other nonsense....You really do need a new hobby if you can't find anything better to do than to watch a bad show and then come to a forum and post your grievances with it. Do something productive.

If you are going to call a "spade a spade" have the balls to name, names when you do it.

If you do not like my posts, then do not read them. When you assume I have no knowledge of identifying drug addiction, you make the *** of yourself, and you truly need to do the growing up.

You make a point of saying "bashing" is bad, yet you do it yourself....

And speaking of hobbies? If you have nothing better to do than to go read a forum about opinions you have no interest in, and commenting on them, while predicating the grievances as unwarranted.

You need to in fact get a new hobby yourself.....

Semper Fi

[ReconMarine]

All in all though, I do still think TAPS and GH should be treated separately, despite all of the ill feeling.

Because?

The TAPS HQs is used as the setting for the program, they start off the episode with Chris Williams saying "We have a caller who has contacted TAPS", the logo's behind the interviews say TAPS, not Ghost Hunters. They introduce investigators as TAPS members or TAPS "family" members. Their vehicles, are logo'ed with TAPS. The ID images of the team members say TAPS "founder", "Co-Founder", etc, etc...

There is no separation in the entities, one can not exist without the other.

TAPS was a fledgling backyard operation with no funding, and financial troubles prior to the GH program, and GH would have no credibility without the TAPS reputation behind it.

Semper Fi

[Stormcrow]

With no offense meant, but I know just as much about you as I do Grant and Jason. In essence, that translates as "nothing". I have never met you, you could say any number of things about your life but seeing as your typed word is all I have to go on, then you understand, of course, if I don't believe you right away. The internet, being srs bsns and all, should always be trusted (just like television and lawyers).

But, seeing as I'm not even 22 years old, I can't say I've done very much at all. But, then again, I certainly don't waste time watching something I don't like, and then further busy myself by coming online to report about it to people I've never met, who would much rather I didn't.

Sweet, I have many a hobby, a job, and am a full time student. It's not much, but it certainly keeps me busy. It so happens I also have free time in which I like to forget about things, and come online to read about the paranormal, and possibly, a good topic about a television show. Seeing as it is a discussion forum, I'm at liberty to respond to something whether I like that particular topic or not. But I don't waste an hour on Wednesday night watching something I know I don't agree with, just so I can hop on U-M and tell people how offended I am about it. That's comparable to me actually picking up Twilight, reading through it, and then posting topics calling SMeyer a dirty... You get the idea. At least I hope. I don't care if you want to watch GH and not like it, but then lecturing us about it's faults, the fakery, etc... It really is a waste.

It's a television show.

We get it.

Additionally, TAPS existed 14 years outside of Ghost Hunters. They are, truly, separate entities. Again I restate, calling them the same thing is exactly like calling the actor by their character. It is real life verses television, real people verses actors. I mean seriously. How many people on this forum--really, raise your hand--believe that GH is an outright portrayal of these people?

Edited October 2, 2009 by Ebonykrow

[ReconMarine]

I was out of town at a Reunion in Beaufort, SC at Paris Island on Wed night. I did not get to watch it until last night.

So we saw more of the "lets bash Brian, now that he is gone" procession.... Even though I think he was a goof ball, I kinda feel for the guy for all the heat he took after he was gone, with no ability to defend himself.

I thought tonight's episode was very good, and the K2 session with Meatloaf was very honest. He was like a kid in a candy store. He was so thrilled to be there, and acted as if he were the "fan" in a room of celebrities.

The water bottle moving was pretty cool to me, but am I the only one who thought they were very dismissive of it, or like "Oh hey the water bottle moved"...like it was no big deal?

In a cross-over issue with Destination Truth:

Am I the only one who thinks the "Great piece of evidence" as Jason Hawes from TAPS put it, was a SET of reflections?

The first image was a reflection off the metal door, they admit that, but as they moved past the door, the OTHER image moved at the same time, and the hand was out as if it were holding the FLIR lens. I think the second image was a reflection off of the polished OR room wall. Those walls are always either tile or painted/polished stainless to make ease of sterility in cleaning.

I think that was a huge mistake, on a show I have to that point been impressed with.

Semper Fi